Riggo-toni Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.xml I have to say I completely disagree with this article. The lack of basic math skills of Americans is becoming a worldwide joke, perhaps even more so now than our legendary inability to speak another language. We're near the bottom of industrialised nations in math and science scores, yet now friggin 8th grade level algebra should be pushed aside because too many people fail it. A typical Korean 8th grader has received more math instruction than the average MBA graduate. And yet, apparently we haven't dumbed-down enough.... -Riggotoni ___________________________________________________________________________ Is Algebra Necessary? A TYPICAL American school day finds some six million high school students and two million college freshmen struggling with algebra. In both high school and college, all too many students are expected to fail. Why do we subject American students to this ordeal? I've found myself moving toward the strong view that we shouldn't. My question extends beyond algebra and applies more broadly to the usual mathematics sequence, from geometry through calculus. State regents and legislators -and much of the public -take it as self-evident that every young person should be made to master polynomial functions and parametric equations. There are many defenses of algebra and the virtue of learning it. Most of them sound reasonable on first hearing; many of them I once accepted. But the more I examine them, the clearer it seems... Click link for full article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Might want to indicate that part of your post is your writing, and part of it is quoting the article. Might make it look like you aren't arguing with yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 There is a lot in the article, but I want to pick on this one part: Another dropout statistic should cause equal chagrin. Of all who embark on higher education, only 58 percent end up with bachelor's degrees. The main impediment to graduation: freshman math. The City University of New York, where I have taught since 1971, found that 57 percent of its students didn't pass its mandated algebra course. The depressing conclusion of a faculty report: "failing math at all levels affects retention more than any other academic factor." A national sample of transcripts found mathematics had twice as many F's and D's compared as other subjects. I'm sorry but kids who fail freshman math in college are complete idiots. I'm sure there are exceptions where otherwise smart kids end up failing, but this is literally high school level math. I never took it, but I saw my roommate study for this class. The math they were doing, I had already finished freshman year of high school. Less time getting drunk would help. For both high schoolers and college kids. Don't blame the subject. I blame parents in this country who don't encourage kids to go into math/science and kids who care much more about their social life than their education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wantarace17 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 What an idiotic article. Of course Algebra is necessary. We need to be producing more computer scientists not more Art History majors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Lets keep dumbing America down some more. It amazed me how many people flunked Algebra when I was in HS, so no surprise that kids nowadays who are much more dumbed down are struggling worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 What an idiotic article. Of course Algebra is necessary. We need to be producing more computer scientists not more Art History majors. I was thinking that it sure would be nice if more voters (and more ES posters) knew what the first word in "marginal tax rate" meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 And English should just focus on how to navigate TV channels or read street signs. No need for Shakespeare or Twain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I'll say this much, I took Algebra/Geometry/Algebra2 in HS, and I use none of it today, at least, not that I can think of off the top of my head. I still think it's useful to learn to teach problem solving and working things out. As for No Excuses, I'm one of those "complete idiots" who had to take freshman math twice in college. And I will readily admit, part of that was my fault because I spent half my freshman year blitzed, but my big issue was the way the class was taught; I think it was called Functions and Graphing. Anyway, the professor taught the entire course by calculator, and I had a friggin mental block on learning how to use those TI-85's or whatever variation was popular at the time. I could never figure out the sequence of buttons to press, whether I had to put in numbers before or after the function, and of course, remembering to clear everything before you started the next problem. Whenever I did manage to make a graph appear, it was inevitably wrong. But he never showed us how to actually work through problems, it was "here's how to do it on a calculator." I had the same problem when I moved onto my business classes, and the Finance professor I had did the same thing. I'm sure a calculator makes things easier, but learning how to punch a sequence of buttons doesn't help me "learn" how to create amortization tables or figure out ROI ratios. By contrast, when I was getting my MBA, my Economics professor didn't use a calculator, he worked through all the graphing, the math behind them, etc. As a result, I aced the final exam and got on A in the class, and this was far more advanced than the class I had flunked eight years earlier. I actually enjoy math to some degree, but it really makes a difference the way it's taught. I always liked working things out on paper over punching buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 Might want to indicate that part of your post is your writing, and part of it is quoting the article. Might make it look like you aren't arguing with yourself. Hazards of posting from smartphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 There is a lot in the article, but I want to pick on this one part: I'm sorry but kids who fail freshman math in college are complete idiots. I'm sure there are exceptions where otherwise smart kids end up failing, but this is literally high school level math. I never took it, but I saw my roommate study for this class. The math they were doing, I had already finished freshman year of high school. Less time getting drunk would help. For both high schoolers and college kids. Don't blame the subject. I blame parents in this country who don't encourage kids to go into math/science and kids who care much more about their social life than their education. The section you quoted tells me something very simple that most don't want to hear...higher education is not for everyone. It's become something that we push every graduating senior toward, but I don't believe it should be. How valuable would some of those 4 years be to individuals honing a vocational skill? Why does everyone have to go to 4 more years of education when we know that 2 out of every 5 won't finish? The stigma that comes with not going to college is ridiculous. If someone is ultimately going to be a mechanic or plumber, wouldn't everyone be better served if he or she spent 2-4 years learning more about the necessary skills instead of taking History, Art, and Literature? You could avoid the wasted expense, any embarrassment of "dropping out" of college, and be productive with the post-high school years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 The section you quoted tells me something very simple that most don't want to hear...higher education is not for everyone. It's become something that we push every graduating senior toward, but I don't believe it should be. How valuable would some of those 4 years be to individuals honing a vocational skill? Why does everyone have to go to 4 more years of education when we know that 2 out of every 5 won't finish? The stigma that comes with not going to college is ridiculous. If someone is ultimately going to be a mechanic or plumber, wouldn't everyone be better served if he or she spent 2-4 years learning more about the necessary skills instead of taking History, Art, and Literature? You could avoid the wasted expense, any embarrassment of "dropping out" of college, and be productive with the post-high school years. I wouldn't disagree with this. But the argument is against algebra specifically, not general education or in favor of vocational training once kids get to 15 if they are not well suited for academic work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVAbrendan Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 You need to keep Algebra and advanced mathematics in our education system. Realistically, MOST people won't use these subjects in every day life...but I don't believe that's the point. The point is to have the student understand the process and jump through the deducting/reasoning aspect. I think of these subjects, as a whole, are used as more of a 'brain sharpening' and 'advanced thinking' tool to prove the student can decipher difficult problems. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I'll say this much, I took Algebra/Geometry/Algebra2 in HS, and I use none of it today, at least, not that I can think of off the top of my head. I still think it's useful to learn to teach problem solving and working things out. Very good point. Most of what I've learned in high school and college isn't information I refer back to in order to get from one day to the next. I don't often need to remember the dates of WWII or that insects have a thorax when I'm in a client meeting. However, I think the biggest benefit of high school and college is learning how to learn and problem solve. It's also nice to be well-rounded so these things are helpful, but certainly not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I wouldn't disagree with this. But the argument is against algebra specifically, not general education or in favor of vocational training once kids get to 15 if they are not well suited for academic work. Yeah, I probably thread-jacked there...but when I saw the statistic in No Excuses's post, it just jumped out to me that we're setting up 40% of the kids to fail. My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Algebra I'd keep. Long division by hand, I'd drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Algebra is not just a math skill, it's an exercise in rational thought processes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGoonie55 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't use Algebra a whole lot in my life. I appreciate the value of knowing it as it comes in handy when figuring out bill payments and such. It also helps to fully understand how interest works so that the car salesman/banks don't work you over. I am currently working towards my BA and took college Algebra two quarters ago. WOW. The lack of simple math comprehension was staggering, and the international students were laughing their way to the bank. The youthof America need to wake up and realize that nothing will be given to them. Noone stands in awe, internationally, at the spectacle that is the United States anymore. I have spent a lot of time overseas and honestly, we're hurting as an educated workforce. I seriously doubt our ability to compete with the rest of the world, in anything other than beer pong, in the next 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 The section you quoted tells me something very simple that most don't want to hear...higher education is not for everyone. It's become something that we push every graduating senior toward, but I don't believe it should be. How valuable would some of those 4 years be to individuals honing a vocational skill? Why does everyone have to go to 4 more years of education when we know that 2 out of every 5 won't finish? The stigma that comes with not going to college is ridiculous. If someone is ultimately going to be a mechanic or plumber, wouldn't everyone be better served if he or she spent 2-4 years learning more about the necessary skills instead of taking History, Art, and Literature? You could avoid the wasted expense, any embarrassment of "dropping out" of college, and be productive with the post-high school years. I wouldn't disagree with this. But the argument is against algebra specifically, not general education or in favor of vocational training once kids get to 15 if they are not well suited for academic work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncr2h Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think you guys are underrating how having 1 crappy teacher early on haunts you for the rest of your math career. Are the people idiots? Do you actually know them? Have you met them and seen how their minds work? Or are you making generalizations? My guess is that you think something is easy, so you think that anybody who can't do it must be lazy or an idiot. In my opinion, all education should be voluntary. If a kid hates math, what right do I have to legally require that he takes it? Why should certain levels of math be required in our public schools? Why do universities require "freshman math", even for students whose majors do not rely on math? I have a feeling that if you made math voluntary, the number of engineers would not drop. The kids who are naturally good at math would still take math classes. How many kids that fail Algebra do you think will end up becoming engineers, and is it worth forcing everybody to continue to fail just so you can make engineers out of those 1% or 2% of kids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Unbelievable. Take an occupation in which no higher education is required.. like many of the construction trades. If you don't know basic algebra, good luck being a carpenter. Good luck being an electrician. Good luck doing anything that requires measurement. When I was in school I was not good at math, especially algebra. The topic flew over my head. Then when I got out of school I found myself an electrician and doing complex math in my head. algebraic and geometric equations. Determining voltage drops, cable measurements, pipe bends and angles. Even though I had gotten bad grades in the classes, it still stuck enough that i was able to pick up on the rules of it as it became needed in the real world. And it became pretty clear pretty fast how important it was. Algebra is absolutely essential in the real world. It is not an esoteric "on paper" part of life like the principles of English, which in Maryland had been the largest requirement to graduate. When i was in school you could finish all your credits but still had to take a full year of English as a senior to finish out the credit. You know how many times I've needed to diagram a sentence since then? A hell of a lot less than I've needed to determine the value of X, that's for damn sure. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Does anyone wonder why we still have long summer vacations? Math is one of those things that flies out of the heads of students over the summer. Our agrarian education system needs to end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmonkforHOF Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 From the article: "What of the claim that mathematics sharpens our minds and makes us more intellectually adept as individuals and a citizen body? It's true that mathematics requires mental exertion. But there's no evidence that being able to prove (x² + y²)² = (x² - y²)² + (2xy)² leads to more credible political opinions or social analysis." yeah, I never want anyone to use logic when forming political opinions or social analysis, crap like that just gets in the way of gut feelings, knee jerk reactions, first impressions, popular opinion and ignorance. I also like how the article goes onto point out that only 5% of new jobs require algerbra, 7.5% of enigneering grads are unemployed and 8.2% of computer science grads are unemployed, but teh author does he not realize that both of those are below the national rate of 9.5%? of course he doesn't, Andrew Hacker is too stupid to understand numbers. I wonder what the unemployment rate is for creative writing, journalism, advertising & marketing, and english majors are, probably close to 0% as they all operate their own blogs and make money hand over fist. I'm not going to bother to actually look up the numbers to support my argument, that would just be foolish, who uses math anyways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 So let me get this straight. Some of you think that forcing algebra on students will make more of them into computer scientists and engineers? How has that worked so far? :doh: The time to put the students through basic algebra is HS. That's when you find out who has the aptitude for it and who does not. Those who have the aptitude can continue down that path. Those who don't can chose another. It's insane to punish those who don't have the aptitude for algebra and deny them an education because they cant pass a course on a subject that they will NEVER, EVER use in real life. Removing the requirement for algebra in college will not make people dumber, it will give MORE people the opportunity to educate themselves in the fields that they are interested in and good at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I think you guys are underrating how having 1 crappy teacher early on haunts you for the rest of your math career. All the more reason for standardized testing....catch deficiencies early and correct them I agree too many never got a good foundation(and not just in math) Algebra 1&2 are not too much to require for HS,though I think focusing on the basics is sadly in order for many Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconTheVillain Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I was not very good at algebra. I killed it at geometry (easiest **** ever) and think im pretty good with probability and percentages (why I play poker) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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