NYT: Is Algebra Necessary

[Going Commando]

I think you guys are underrating how having 1 crappy teacher early on haunts you for the rest of your math career. Are the people idiots? Do you actually know them? Have you met them and seen how their minds work? Or are you making generalizations? My guess is that you think something is easy, so you think that anybody who can't do it must be lazy or an idiot.

In my opinion, all education should be voluntary. If a kid hates math, what right do I have to legally require that he takes it? Why should certain levels of math be required in our public schools? Why do universities require "freshman math", even for students whose majors do not rely on math?

I have a feeling that if you made math voluntary, the number of engineers would not drop. The kids who are naturally good at math would still take math classes. How many kids that fail Algebra do you think will end up becoming engineers, and is it worth forcing everybody to continue to fail just so you can make engineers out of those 1% or 2% of kids?

Good questions and good points.

It seems obvious to me that the student who excels at verbal reasoning and communication but can barely pass his math courses is no more stupid than the brilliant Math student that can read a work from Kant and understand almost nothing from it.

Math is a language, meaning a tool for communicating ideas & logic. It's certainly not the only language people learn and study. You gain fluency & literacy in it like any other language. Most of the time this is done at a very early age. Most of the time problems in Math start very early in a child's life. They lack fluency in Math starting school, they get to school and suffer anxiety in the subject from their lack of familiarity, their learning ability shuts down and they fall behind. When students suffer from anxiety in a subject and fall behind early, they're basically ****ed for the rest of their school career.

Lack of math fluency is undoubtedly more common than lack of fluency in verbal communication. How often do you hear even well educated people say, "ah, I just suck at math"? Then how often do you hear people say "I suck at reading"? There's actual stigma to the latter. We don't do our everyday communication with each other by formulas and coefficients. We do it with words. And I suspect Math fluency declined even more the past few decades because accessible technology makes the need for the masses to do their own calculations pretty much disappear except in a relatively small number of specialized fields.

The point in all of this is that, no, just because you lack fluency in math does not mean you are stupid or lazy. It means you lack fluency in Math. Is the average American stupid or lazy because he lacks fluency in German? Because they lack fluency in musical notation for example? For tons of people, all of those things are equally irrelevant. Most people only ever use arithmetic and a sort of intuitive geometry/spacial awareness in their daily lives.

Advanced Math, nor any other type of highly specialized course, should not be used as a gen ed barrier that keeps huge numbers of students from graduating. It's absurdly expensive to get a college degree and ruinous when you spend the money to get one and fail. It's bad for the economy as a whole to have so many people saddled with untenable debt with little or nothing to show for it.

[MissU28]

I know that I teach math very differently than I learned it, and I think it's for the better. These days, teachers focus a lot on number sense....basically getting kids to see the why behind the numbers. I understand fractions and certain math concepts a lot better after teaching 4th grade math this past year. That sounds crazy, but I depended on my memorized formulas when I did math, and now I understand why those formulas work. Sometimes teaching that way can be annoying, because the shortcuts are taught later, but it sets a better foundation.

[Mad Mike]

Why just make an exception for math then?

In college, I had to take history, philosophy, culture, humanities and all sorts of other 'useless' classes that had no practical application on anything I'll do with my current career.

Do we get rid of them too if they aren't related to a persons major?

So I guess you don't intend on voting? Or forming an intelligent opinion on any of a million cultural issues we are faced with every day?

I use that knowledge daily. Algebra?.... Not once.

Statistically, there is no issue with people dropping out of higher education because of those classes. There is an issue with higher math.

It still comes back to one basic issue...

Why should I be denied a full education in other fields of study because I suck at algebra?

And how does continuing to force algebra on all students increase algebra literacy? How does changing nothing help? :doh:

[DCSaints_fan]

Every single field, even humanities, uses statistics.

You can't really understand statistics, without calculus.

You can't do calculus without algebra.

Calculus should be the minimum requirement for a bachelor's.

[No Excuses]

So I guess you don't intend on voting? Or forming an intelligent opinion on any of a million cultural issues we are faced with every day?

I use that knowledge daily. Algebra?.... Not once.

Statistically, there is no issue with people dropping out of higher education because of those classes. There is an issue with higher math.

Is it because an introductory history course is easier than math? I'd say so.

Math actually requires effort beyond opening a book and memorizing facts. And basic college math isn't hard or a higher level course. It's really really not hard at all. It's considered hard because our standards in this country for what constitutes as "tough math" are screwed up.

Being bad at something doesn't mean we excuse people from it. Our discussion should be about how we improve math scores, not that we should get rid of them because people suck at it.

EDIT: and I wasn't arguing that those classes are useless. I actually really enjoyed my general curriculum courses in college. But if the criteria was practical application, a good chunk of them were useless.

[Mad Mike]

I know that I teach math very differently than I learned it, and I think it's for the better. These days, teachers focus a lot on number sense....basically getting kids to see the why behind the numbers. I understand fractions and certain math concepts a lot better after teaching 4th grade math this past year. That sounds crazy, but I depended on my memorized formulas when I did math, and now I understand why those formulas work. Sometimes teaching that way can be annoying, because the shortcuts are taught later, but it sets a better foundation.

You sound like a great teacher. I wish I had someone like you back in the day.

[Going Commando]

Why just make an exception for math then?

In college, I had to take history, philosophy, culture, humanities and all sorts of other 'useless' classes that had no practical application on anything I'll do with my current career.

Do we get rid of them too if they aren't related to a persons major?

Yes.

I think it's absurd for a Neuroscience major to have to take Victorian Fairytales or Ancient Greek Philosophy unless he plans on needing them for his future career. Likewise I think it's absurd for the History major to have to take Calculus and Physics. Only elite schools catering to elite students should be able to get away with making some of this stuff gen ed requirements. It's staggering to me this is pretty much the norm in Higher Ed. These things should be electives.

The overwhelming majority of high ed institutions need to realize that they're simply degree making machines. Especially the non-selective ones. They need to understand that a student going to a noncompetitive school is entering into a contract. They'll pay a certain amount of money and move through an appropriate and career focused set of courses and come out with a degree at the end. Having so many flunk out is a failure on the part of these schools. With so many failing, these schools are basically just scamming money and feeding a ruinous economic bubble.

Also parents, grade school teachers, and counselors need to go ahead and cease with the lie that you can figure out what you want to do during or after college. They need to let students know they need to go into college with a plan and direction day one and that the students must stick to that plan. They need to do a much better job informing students about what college and its purpose really is.

[Mad Mike]

Is it because an introductory history course is easier than math? I'd say so.

Math actually requires effort beyond opening a book and memorizing facts. And basic college math isn't hard or a higher level course. It's really really not hard at all. It's considered hard because our standards in this country for what constitutes as "tough math" are screwed up.

Being bad at something doesn't mean we excuse people from it. Our discussion should be about how we improve math scores, not that we should get rid of them because people suck at it.

I'm not talking basic math. I'm talking about algebra and above in college.

The fact is we are forcing it on kids now and it is not working. It is in fact forcing kids to drop out. How is continuing to do the same thing going to make things better?

[No Excuses]

The fact is we are forcing it on kids now and it is not working. It is in fact forcing kids to drop out. How is continuing to do the same thing going to make things better?

Is completely getting rid of it the requirement the right solution? Either way, most college kids who have majors not related to math don't have to take anything beyond pre-calculus. College freshman level math is pre-calc. Honestly, I don't think it's absurd to expect kids to be fairly competent at pre-calc if they are pursuing a bachelors.

The sample size of kids who are bad at math is too big in this country. I think closely examining why we have this problem and finding a way to solve it is better than excusing them. The major problem seems to be in the middle school and high school years rather than college.

[Botched]

Why just make an exception for math then?

In college, I had to take history, philosophy, culture, humanities and all sorts of other 'useless' classes that had no practical application on anything I'll do with my current career.

Do we get rid of them too if they aren't related to a persons major?

All three of those have more practical use in real life than advanced math. And yes, if something is totally unrelated to your major, you shouldn't be required to take it. It's your money and the school shouldn't be able to tell you which classes you have to pay for based on some arbitrary outdated criteria.

You know what would make a hell of a lot more sense to force students to learn than calculus or advanced algebra? Auto mechanics. That is something that would be extremely useful to anyone who drives a car, which is virtually everyone. But unlike math, that will never be anything more than an elective.

[Mad Mike]

Is completely getting rid of it the requirement the right solution?

In college? If it is harming otherwise intelligent students and helping nothing... YES.

The major problem seems to be in the middle school and high school years rather than college.

Agreed. Then if they want to develop their skills further in college they should have that *choice*.

[HBnotBlades]

I'm not talking basic math. I'm talking about algebra and above in college.

I would say algebra is basic math and a necessary building block for the math that is most applicable and necessary to day to day life: Probability and Statistics.

[Pick6]

For those who say we don't use algebra everyday. You should probably read the list below.

The key to opportunity

These are the years of small beginnings until the day comes that you have to be able to do something as intricate as algebra. Algebra is the key that will unlock the door before you. Having the ability to do algebra will help you excel into the field that you want to specialize in. We live in a world where only the best succeed.

Taking a detour on not

Having the ability and knowledge to do algebra will determine whether you will take the short cut or the detour in the road of life. In other words, ample opportunities or career choices to decide from or limited positions with a low annual income.

Prerequisite for advanced training

Most employers expect their employees to be able to do the fundamentals of algebra. If you want to do any advanced training you will have to be able to be fluent in the concept of letters and symbols used to represent quantities.

Science

When doing any form of science, whether just a project or a lifetime career choice, you will have to be able to do and understand how to use and apply algebra.

Every day life

Formulas are a part of our lives. Whether we drive a car and need to calculate the distance, or need to work out the volume in a milk container, algebraic formulas are used everyday without you even realizing it.

Analysis

When it comes to analyzing anything, whether the cost, price or profit of a business you will need to be able to do algebra. Margins need to be set and calculations need to be made to do strategic planning and analyzing is the way to do it.

Data entry

What about the entering of any data. Your use of algebraic expressions and the use of equations will be like a corner stone when working with data entry. When working on the computer with spreadsheets you will need algebraic skills to enter, design and plan.

Decision making

Decisions like which cell phone provider gives the best contracts to deciding what type of vehicle to buy, you will use algebra to decide which one is the best one. By drawing up a graph and weighing the best option you will get the best value for your money.

Interest Rates

How much can you earn on an annual basis with the correct interest rate. How will you know which company gives the best if you can't work out the graphs and understand the percentages. In today's life a good investment is imperative.

Writing of assignments

When writing any assignments the use of graphs, data and math will validate your statements and make it appear more professional. Professionalism is of the essence if you want to move ahead and be taken seriously.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

All three of those have more practical use in real life than advanced math. And yes, if something is totally unrelated to your major, you shouldn't be required to take it. It's your money and the school shouldn't be able to tell you which classes you have to pay for based on some arbitrary outdated criteria.

You know what would make a hell of a lot more sense to force students to learn than calculus or advanced algebra? Auto mechanics. That is something that would be extremely useful to anyone who drives a car, which is virtually everyone. But unlike math, that will never be anything more than an elective.

I bolded one of your points above. Do you propose new criteria or no criteria? I would think there would have to be some requirements. I don't think we want students just picking and choosing their entire curriculum.

[Riggo-toni]

So I guess you don't intend on voting? Or forming an intelligent opinion on any of a million cultural issues we are faced with every day?

I use that knowledge daily. Algebra?.... Not once.

Why should I be denied a full education in other fields of study because I suck at algebra?

And how does continuing to force algebra on all students increase algebra literacy? How does changing nothing help? :doh:

People who only wish to learn such knowledge as what is used daily should have that avenue open to them, namely more vocational schools. In Italy, one must prove proficiency in a 2nd language to graduate high school, and a 3rd to graduate from college.. just one more example of how dumbed down American education is compared to the rest of the world. Are there practical applications/reasons for such studies. Actually, I'd say yes. People who are bilingual delay the onset of Alzheimers by an avg of 5 years. People who have studied Latin have a significantly higher vocabulary, even though you might dismiss such learning as a useless skill. In the article the writer dismisses the success of Korean students at Algebra because they are simply more dedicated. Oh, those conniving little zipperheads spending all that time studying just to make us look foolish.....

[Going Commando]

The sample size of kids who are bad at math is too big in this country. I think closely examining why we have this problem and finding a way to solve it is better than excusing them. The major problem seems to be in the middle school and high school years rather than college.

The issue is with the relevancy of advanced math for most. More general fluency would come if it were more generally relevant.

[HOF44]

I've always thought math was exercise for your brain just like a gym is for your body. :2cents:

[Botched]

I bolded one of your points above. Do you propose new criteria or no criteria? I would think there would have to be some requirements. I don't think we want students just picking and choosing their entire curriculum.

Sure, there should always be requirements. Classes should be relevant to a person's major though, and I don't think algebra above a basic level is actually relevant to many majors at all.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Sure, there should always be requirements. Classes should be relevant to a person's major though, and I don't think algebra above a basic level is actually relevant to many majors at all.

So, the major change you're proposing is that a student decide on a major upon enrolling as a freshman. In that scenario, would we increase the number of major-related classes to fill up 4 years or reduce the number of credits required to graduate?

I'm not sure how things look right now, but when I was in college from 1995-1999, we took about 2 years of liberal arts classes to fulfill those basic requirements and then about 2 years of classes that were relevant to our major.

Edit: Basically, I don't see the point of narrowing the scope so much. When better to be exposed to some subjects outside of your comfort zone than in a place of higher education? If you're going to take the time to get a 4-year degree, why not sprinkle in some subjects you'd otherwise not learn about? I think the divide should be who attends college and who doesn't. Once there, I think it's a nice thing to be exposed to general education.

[SkinInsite]

Basic math, and I consider algebra to beginner's calculus basic math, is all about repetition. If you spend 45minutes a day doing math problems there's no way you wouldn't at least get a C in the class. There's only a few ways to structure a problem.

[big#44]

Just for fun I looked up the author of the article. I find it ironic that a guy who majored in political science (a field that is widely criticized for not being a science) is saying algebra is useless.

[DCSaints_fan]

Yes.

I think it's absurd for a Neuroscience major to have to take Victorian Fairytales or Ancient Greek Philosophy unless he plans on needing them for his future career. Likewise I think it's absurd for the History major to have to take Calculus and Physics. Only elite schools catering to elite students should be able to get away with making some of this stuff gen ed requirements. It's staggering to me this is pretty much the norm in Higher Ed. These things should be electives.

I don't think its absurb for a neuroscience major to have a humanities/literature requirement. Being able to write effectively is a critical skill for any field. Not just in technical journals, but often scientists have to communicate ideas to non-technical audiences. Having some education in the humanities comes in handy. Maybe you don't have to take Victorian Fairy Tales, but some I believe there is a benefit to study some sort of non-technical writing.

Also, with respect to science, there was a history to it. It didn't just pop up into existence 400 some years ago. There was a philosophical background that had to develope, going as far back as the Greeks, Egyptians and Chinese.

[HBnotBlades]

I've tutored a fair number of high school and college students struggling with algebra over the years and I've never met a single one that was incapable of understanding algebraic concepts and doing well in a course. With enough work, they all get to a level they never thought they could. The problem most "bad at math" students have is not that they don't have the ability, it's that they shut down when they don't immediately know the answer.

So much of the tutoring I've done for algebra is walking students through basic problem solving techniques. Having them identify what they know, what they don't know, and where they can find the information they need. Then we step through each one. Some students can pick it up by reading through the book, some need to see examples, and others need talk to someone like a tutor or TA. Everyone learns in different ways. The takeaway at the end of a basic algebra course isn't about math skills, it's about a student learning how he/she can best understand and apply unfamiliar or difficult concepts.

[Pick6]

So, the major change you're proposing is that a student decide on a major upon enrolling as a freshman. In that scenario, would we increase the number of major-related classes to fill up 4 years or reduce the number of credits required to graduate?

I'm not sure how things look right now, but when I was in college from 1995-1999, we took about 2 years of liberal arts classes to fulfill those basic requirements and then about 2 years of classes that were relevant to our major.

I was required for a BS to take a whole mess of different things. Almost like high school, i.e. english, history, science, PE(3 credits), etc. in the first two years. The last two years was mostly business courses for my major.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I was required for a BS to take a whole mess of different things. Almost like high school, i.e. english, history, science, PE(3 credits), etc. in the first two years. The last two years was mostly business courses for my major.

Right...exactly. I think that's a good thing. If we did away with all the courses that were irrelevant to one's major then we'd either reduce the credits significantly or add a ****load of relevant courses to one's schedule (almost doubling the number of relevant courses someone would take). I don't see the harm in taking basic courses to become well-rounded. Even though I don't use much of what I learned in college on a daily basis, I think it's nice for educated adults to have been exposed to a well-balanced education. Again, if you're going to take the time and spend the money to go to college, why narrow the focus so much?