NYT: Is Algebra Necessary

[DaGoonie55]

ncr2h -

I do not think people who struggle at math are lazy or stupid. They lack certain skills that they have not acquired yet. Certainly a great teacher makes this subject easier to learn, however, blaming ones shortcomings in math on the teacher is a tough one to understand. My biology teacher didn't teach us anything. He sat there all day while we did our work lined out in the syllabus. If we had questions, it was on us to ask. We still had a quiz each week and a test every month. Am I to blame him because I didn't do well on the Meiosis test?

This argument is symptomatic of what I see in my younger classmates. They want nothing that isn't handed to them. I offer study groups, but the mall has a sale on some bull****. The youth needs to prioritze their lives and realize that beer and parties will exist once you have a degree - easier to afford to drink beer when you have a good job too.

[ixcuincle]

Yes it sure is

[Mad Mike]

Algebra is not just a math skill, it's an exercise in rational thought processes.

Probably one of the best pro-algebra positions I've heard.

But I stand behind my position that the basic skills can and should be taught in HS. Once a student gets to college, they should be allowed to put their focus where it will be needed most FOR THEM. And let's not pretend that anyone who finds that they want or need more math education later in life can't get it.

[renaissance]

I'm sorry but kids who fail freshman math in college are complete idiots. I'm sure there are exceptions where otherwise smart kids end up failing, but this is literally high school level math.

My freshman year in college I took a course called elementary math modeling. It was basically advanced graph-making in excel. Three of the less than 20 students had to drop the class before the semester ended because they just couldn't cut it. I could not for the life of me understand how they couldn't make it through this class which was so simple to me.

It's not necessarily just their social lives, though. You also have to consider different high school backgrounds as well. I took algebra, geometry, calculus, and statistics in high school and feel I was pretty well-prepared for college math. Most kids aren't required and thus have no interest in taking all those classes. I'm not excusing them for not putting in more study time or working with the prof after class, but it's not always as simple as they were partying too much.

[Darth Tater]

So let me get this straight. Some of you think that forcing algebra on students will make more of them into computer scientists and engineers? How has that worked so far? :doh:

The time to put the students through basic algebra is HS. That's when you find out who has the aptitude for it and who does not. Those who have the aptitude can continue down that path. Those who don't can chose another. It's insane to punish those who don't have the aptitude for algebra and deny them an education because they cant pass a course on a subject that they will NEVER, EVER use in real life.

Removing the requirement for algebra in college will not make people dumber, it will give MORE people the opportunity to educate themselves in the fields that they are interested in and good at.

Truth is, most good computer scientists are autodidacts anyway. The only reason anybody needs higher education than HS is to get a job in where you can learn how to do the job.

---------- Post added July-31st-2012 at 11:56 AM ----------

ncr2h -

I do not think people who struggle at math are lazy or stupid. They lack certain skills that they have not acquired yet. Certainly a great teacher makes this subject easier to learn, however, blaming ones shortcomings in math on the teacher is a tough one to understand. My biology teacher didn't teach us anything. He sat there all day while we did our work lined out in the syllabus. If we had questions, it was on us to ask. We still had a quiz each week and a test every month. Am I to blame him because I didn't do well on the Meiosis test?

This argument is symptomatic of what I see in my younger classmates. They want nothing that isn't handed to them. I offer study groups, but the mall has a sale on some bull****. The youth needs to prioritze their lives and realize that beer and parties will exist once you have a degree - easier to afford to drink beer when you have a good job too.

Stupid, maybe. Lazy, probably not. Great thing about being good at math is that it has allowed me to be lazy and still earn more than 80% of most Americans.

[Mad Mike]

I was not very good at algebra.

I killed it at geometry (easiest **** ever) and think im pretty good with probability and percentages (why I play poker)

LOL. I'm almost the same. I sucked at algebra. Geometry is no where near the problem for me because it lends itself more to visualization.

But what really is interesting is that I'm very good at poker using what I call "fuzzy math" I couldn't give you exact percentages and probabilities to save my life. But I can intuitively get close enough that my "grey" area allows me a safe zone that accounts nicely for dumb luck.

[DeaconTheVillain]

I took algebra my freshman year in university (required) and only past because I was able to cheat. we had a weekly online quiz and I figured out that i could copy and paste the math problems into google with quotes and usually find the answer.

I get bonus points for being clever right? No one else figured out that the answers are always on google....Seriously, though, the only math that interested me was geometry and probability and I found algebra irritating and boring.

[Riggo-toni]

I was not very good at algebra.

I killed it at geometry (easiest **** ever) and think im pretty good with probability and percentages (why I play poker)

This was my experience in junior high/hs. Between college and grad school I decided to take a math class before going for my MBA. When I took a placement test to see which class to take, my residual knowledge of 8th grade Algebra got me into a Calculus class. A little maturity is a powerful thing- after bombing in algebra in junior high, I smoked thru calculus in college.

[Bang]

So let me get this straight. Some of you think that forcing algebra on students will make more of them into computer scientists and engineers? How has that worked so far? :doh:

You use algebra practically every day in the trades. If you're building anything, you use algebra, and that is true for those construct buildings aand we who construct websites. I use it all the time when making my initial layouts.

You use it when you shop. It's one of the more practical things they teach us as a requirement.

I sucked at it. Looking at an equation in a textbook was hard for me to wrap my head around, but in practical application out here in the real world it's a lot different.

And, I will say that when I'm working out my math in the prelim stages of a site design, my brain is tuned up, turned on and creative juices flow.

~Bang

PS, pardon my new keyboard. It's very small and I'm maing all sorts of mistakes.

[Botched]

In school I always thought it was funny how some of the students who were brilliant with math, could barely write a coherent sentence.

So let me get this straight. Some of you think that forcing algebra on students will make more of them into computer scientists and engineers? How has that worked so far? :doh:

The time to put the students through basic algebra is HS. That's when you find out who has the aptitude for it and who does not. Those who have the aptitude can continue down that path. Those who don't can chose another. It's insane to punish those who don't have the aptitude for algebra and deny them an education because they cant pass a course on a subject that they will NEVER, EVER use in real life.

Removing the requirement for algebra in college will not make people dumber, it will give MORE people the opportunity to educate themselves in the fields that they are interested in and good at.

100% agree. I was one who struggled quite a bit with math at almost every level, so I've felt that way for a long time.

If somebody wants to take math classes, more power to them, but forcing all students to learn something that is useless to 99.99% of them is wrong.

[sacase]

I guess I am on of those idiots. I barely passed Algebra in 10th grade, but I did very well in Geometry. I had no desire to take Algebra II. I had to take college Algebra four times to finally pass it, and when I did I took it at a community college. I used to think I am not a math person. Then rather recently I finally figured out why I was so bad at algebra in High School. About 5 years ago I learned that I was lactose intollerant. Well my Algebra class was after lunch so my stomach was in knots from drinking milk. I had horrible gas and I was more concerned with not farting in class with the hot chic sitting next to me than I was in paying attention to algebra. I would get bad grades, so naturally I came to dread the class. As a result that adversion to math stuck with me my whole life. I know now that I could go back and do very well, but life has been good to me and I am doing very well for myself without math.

However with that said, I highly encouage any student to go as far in math as you can. I think that it does neet to be mandatory and more emphasis be placed on it. I will tell you why. I work with a lot of the nations top scientists and engineers working in defense industry. I am a pretty smart guy, but these guys make me look like a complete idiot. They are the "nerds" that we made fun of in high school and they are pulling down HUGE salaries and working on some amazing projects. Strong math skills will get you VERY far in life if you apply yourself at a young age. If we are going to stay the leader in innovation, then we need to ensure we are giving our youth the best oppertunity to succed and strong math skills are desperately needed. You would be suprised at how many companies have to go overseas to attract talent that is not availible here. There are so many companies that would rather hire American but the people are just not here to fill those rolls.

[pjfootballer]

You said yourself that most kids don't have basic math skills, Why do you want to teach them Algebra if they can't add, subtract, multiply or divide? I took Algebra, Geometry and Trig. Useless for my profession. If I was going to be an architect or math teacher, I guess it would come in handy.

[elkabong82]

Algebra needs to stay to improve people's problem solving and logical thinking skills. That being said, I was blessed with exceptional math skills, took calculus in high school and college, didn't have to study much for those classes, for me it just stuck. However, I did notice that the classes are typically boring, which makes it really hard for those who don't have natural math skills and have to work at it. My point being that teachers need to start making those classes more enjoyable and also should use some real life application of the math in their teaching. If the course was more engaging then students would do better.

[Thinking Skins]

here was a follow-up piece to this in Scientific American entitled "Abandoning Algebra is not the answer":

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/30/abandoning-algebra-is-not-the-answer/

[pjfootballer]

The section you quoted tells me something very simple that most don't want to hear...higher education is not for everyone. It's become something that we push every graduating senior toward, but I don't believe it should be. How valuable would some of those 4 years be to individuals honing a vocational skill?

Why does everyone have to go to 4 more years of education when we know that 2 out of every 5 won't finish? The stigma that comes with not going to college is ridiculous. If someone is ultimately going to be a mechanic or plumber, wouldn't everyone be better served if he or she spent 2-4 years learning more about the necessary skills instead of taking History, Art, and Literature? You could avoid the wasted expense, any embarrassment of "dropping out" of college, and be productive with the post-high school years.

I agree with you. I hear so many parents of toddlers and little kids say, "no way, mu child is going to college." Well, circumstances change as the child gets older. I know parents "want" their kids to go to college and have things better than they did, but not every child is made for college. My cousin's son got his high school sweetheart pregnant his freshman year of college. Both left WVA (he had a baseball scholarship) and she goes to community college part time while he's had to pick up electricians trade to pay for the kid.

[No Excuses]

My freshman year in college I took a course called elementary math modeling. It was basically advanced graph-making in excel. Three of the less than 20 students had to drop the class before the semester ended because they just couldn't cut it. I could not for the life of me understand how they couldn't make it through this class which was so simple to me.

It's not necessarily just their social lives, though. You also have to consider different high school backgrounds as well. I took algebra, geometry, calculus, and statistics in high school and feel I was pretty well-prepared for college math. Most kids aren't required and thus have no interest in taking all those classes. I'm not excusing them for not putting in more study time or working with the prof after class, but it's not always as simple as they were partying too much.

Of course, but I think there is a difference in failing and struggling. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I was some kind of straight A throughout college. I struggled in a few courses. Physics bored the living crap out of me and had very little to do with my major I struggled in that class with the strength of the course material and just general interest. I still got a decent grade in it.

Failing a freshmen level course is absurd in my opinion. Literally every professor grades with decent to heavy curves these days. And I know for sure that in math courses, there are generally a lot of points you can get by just doing the homework assignments (usually something like Course Compass).

[pjfootballer]

Does anyone wonder why we still have long summer vacations?

Math is one of those things that flies out of the heads of students over the summer. Our agrarian education system needs to end

Not here. Kids were out in the 2nd week of June and are back in school in a week or 2. I remember having from June 1st until after Labor Day. Labor Day weekend was the last hurrah of the summer.

And FWIW, I'm not against Algebra nor do I think it needs to be taken away. I just find that they are putting an emphsis on it at younger ages when most kids still struggle to do basic math.

[Going Commando]

The section you quoted tells me something very simple that most don't want to hear...higher education is not for everyone. It's become something that we push every graduating senior toward, but I don't believe it should be. How valuable would some of those 4 years be to individuals honing a vocational skill?

Why does everyone have to go to 4 more years of education when we know that 2 out of every 5 won't finish? The stigma that comes with not going to college is ridiculous. If someone is ultimately going to be a mechanic or plumber, wouldn't everyone be better served if he or she spent 2-4 years learning more about the necessary skills instead of taking History, Art, and Literature? You could avoid the wasted expense, any embarrassment of "dropping out" of college, and be productive with the post-high school years.

Everyone has to go to college because it's the best investment you can make in your future. The income gap between having a bachelor's degree and not having one is big and there are negligible high income opportunities for people without at least a bachelor's.

Today a college degree is an investment pure and simple. But it's not treated like other investments, it's treated as some sort of idealistic self actualizing end in itself. It's treated like something students still do for humanitarian and enlightenment reasons.

Newsflash, that might have been true in the 19th century. It's not that any more. Maybe at a very select few elite universities training elite students to be future academics, that's still true. But for the overwhelming majority of college kids, it's just what you have to get through to even have a chance at a decent job.

That's why I can see the argument for doing away with general requirements that have utterly zero practical relevancy to your field of study and your career path. It's problems like this in Higher Ed that make it seem like a scam needing sweeping general reforms to so many people. Given Higher Ed's purpose today, it seems like these types of courses are there primarily to flunk out students. That's bull****. That's basically stealing money from families and students and plunging students into terrible amounts of debt with nothing to show for it.

You shouldn't be dicked out of your horrifically expensive investment that's a necessity for advancing in this economy because some old academic designed your curriculum to include irrelevant road block courses based on some sort of outmoded 17th century enlightenment philosophy of education.

[pointyfootball]

And FWIW, I'm not against Algebra nor do I think it needs to be taken away. I just find that they are putting an emphsis on it at younger ages when most kids still struggle to do basic math.

In our school districts, students that are good in math take Algebra I in 7th grade. When I was in MS, same students took it in 8th grade. So essentially they've taken a subject that is challenging for even the best students and moved it up a year. I question whether even talented math students are truly ready for Algebra I in 7th grade, and after then skipping a year by taking Geometry, if they remember anything for when they take Algebra II in 9th grade.

As to whether or not it should be taught, I say definitely.

[pjfootballer]

In our school districts, students that are good in math take Algebra I in 7th grade. When I was in MS, same students took it in 8th grade. So essentially they've taken a subject that is challenging for even the best students and moved it up a year. I question whether even talented math students are truly ready for Algebra I in 7th grade, and after then skipping a year by taking Geometry, if they remember anything for when they take Algebra II in 9th grade.

As to whether or not it should be taught, I say definitely.

I took A1 in 8th grade, I passed, but it wasn't impressive. My HS counselor suggest I take it again in 9th grade and I aced it. Did fine in A2 and Geometry. I needed 1 more year. I wasn't ready for it in Jr. High.

[pointyfootball]

I took A1 in 8th grade, I passed, but it wasn't impressive. My HS counselor suggest I take it again in 9th grade and I aced it. Did fine in A2 and Geometry. I needed 1 more year. I wasn't ready for it in Jr. High.

Exactly...and I think a lot of kids are like that. A1 is such an important math class as all other maths & sciences (Physics, Chem, Trig, Calc, etc) all build on it, so if you don't have the basics of A1 down, you have to learn/relearn them at each stage you try and progress upwards. I basically had to teach myself Trig in Calc1 my first semester of college b/c I didn't really learn it in HS.

[No Excuses]

If somebody wants to take math classes, more power to them, but forcing all students to learn something that is useless to 99.99% of them is wrong.

Why just make an exception for math then?

In college, I had to take history, philosophy, culture, humanities and all sorts of other 'useless' classes that had no practical application on anything I'll do with my current career.

Do we get rid of them too if they aren't related to a persons major?

[Destino]

Something being difficult is not a reason to get rid of it. The question should be why are kids so accepting of failure when things become difficult?

[Asianskins]

Why just make an exception for math then?

In college, I had to take history, philosophy, culture, humanities and all sorts of other 'useless' classes that had no practical application on anything I'll do with my current career.

Do we get rid of them too if they aren't related to a persons major?

Completely agreed

[HBnotBlades]

I like the final sentence in the Scientific American response:

Math education needs to improve, but if illiteracy were on the rise, I don’t think we’d be talking about eliminating reading from the curriculum.

I'm very, very glad I was convinced to stick with math even though I seriously struggled through Algebra I and II. Neither of my algebra teachers were very good. Things finally started to click for me when I took calculus my senior year of high school because I happened to luck into a great teacher. My advisor and parents basically forced me to take Calculus, that wouldn't have happened if I was the one making the decision.

These days I'm an engineer and I'm closing in on finishing my doctorate at high level university. I've spent a lot of time teaching undergraduate engineers over the past few years and I see them routinely move on to jobs that are not in the typical math/science track. Many end up going to elite medical or law schools. Recruiters come here looking for engineers to work for law firms, consulting companies, financial services, health insurers, the IRS, etc. There are even well known food and beverage companies that look to bring young engineers into their management positions.

Why do they come looking for students who've had absolutely no training in their industries? Because students with strong math/science backgrounds are more likely to have developed crucial logic/critic thinking thinking skills, as well as the ability to stick with and master difficult concepts that will allow them to excel in various environments. In math education a student is constantly being exposed to problems to which he/she does not know the answer. Instead, the student has a set of tools (formulas, mathematic techniques, etc.) they can use to find the answer. Maybe they have to combine their tools in a way in which they haven't ever done, maybe they have to do the opposite of everything they've been doing so far, maybe they need to come up with completely new tools. In any case, it's the same process one can apply in virtually any field: Examine the problem, compare it to problems you know how to solve, define what a good solution will consist of, figure out what tools you need to find the solution, and come up with your best possible answer.