Hamas Attacks Against Israel

[Jumbo]

46 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Early in the thread I eluded to this really being a religious struggle for the conservative Israelis political parties based on claiming the land that they believe that God gave them.

 

This doesn't end with Palestine and Gaza.  It is a little unclear in the Talmud (OT) what they believe they were given, but today it is generally believed that the book refers to from the Red Sea to the Tigris and the Euphrates.  Which is a large chunk of the Arabian Peninsula.

 

If they defeat the Palestinians, it won't be too long until the conservative Jews are dragging them into another conflict.  There are people out there that believe all of that land is theirs and only their lack of faith and effort has prevented them from claiming it.

 

 

And of course the ugliest aspects of these realities are all exacerbated by the involvements of numerous nations outside the immediate region with competing and disparate motives, including the fact that some of those nations--the U. S. especially--actually have powerful factions with competing agendas on these matters within their  own nation. What a mess.

 

[Cooked Crack]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Those videos would flood social media with or without monetization. They always have.

Yes, but those videos will be more likely to show up in your feed now. Also in replies with blue checks being prioritized

 

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Destino]

30 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

Yes, but those videos will be more likely to show up in your feed now. Also in replies with blue checks being prioritized

 

 

I’ll grant you they may be more likely to show up in your feed. They always showed up in mine before monetization, certainly when I’d click on a trending topic, but now they’re more likely. Seems like a minor concern to me but others might have to extend themselves as far as switching auto play videos to “never” in settings. A problem easily solved.

[Gurgeh]

21 hours ago, RansomthePasserby said:

Judging from this Israel is going to occupy Gaza. 100,000 troops gives Israel the 1:20 ratio of troops to residents it needs for a successful occupation.

 

Israel Gaza live news: Netanyahu says action only just begun as Hamas threatens to kill hostages - BBC News

 

"Israel knows that a wave of international sympathy and goodwill gives its military a window of opportunity to conduct extensive military operations inside Gaza. One former government official told me Israel will have “at least two weeks” before calls for restraint from Washington (the only power that matters here) will become hard to resist.

 

"If Israel is determined to deal a decisive blow to Hamas, this will inevitably involve a massive ground operation, at which point civilian casualties – already high – are likely to soar. Complicating matters enormously is the fate of at least 100 Israeli hostages – soldiers and civilians - now being held in Gaza.

 

"If Hamas starts killing the civilians, the former official told me, “we will do to Hamas what the world did with ISIS and al-Qaeda”.

[bearrock]

Setting aside who's to blame and what caused it all, I don't see how this benefits Hamas in the slightest.  If they wanted to give Netanyahu cover with Isrealis and US to go nuts with his wildest dream of massive annihilation in Gaza, this probably is it.  So what’s their end goal here?  

 

And let's say Isreal is stopped short of obliterating Gaza.  Does Hamas really expect this experience is going calm down Isreal with respect to how they deal with them?  

[kfrankie]

10 hours ago, Destino said:

There’s something especially stomach churning about bombing an area where the civilians are not permitted to evacuate. They all just have to sit there and hope they’re still alive after each successive boom. What would you tell your children? How would you try to save them?

I agree.  It reminds me of when the U,S., England, and Russia were bombing Berlin at the end of World War II.  Reduced the city to rubble, and there was no where to go.

 

Edit;  Actually I have reconsidered.  In response to your original question, “what would I tell my wife and kids if we were in Gaza, areas near our neighborhood were being bombed, and there was no way out?”

 

I would tell them “family, I am so very very sorry that I did not attempt to move us out of this godforsaken hell hole before something like this happened. I knew it was an enormous risk staying here. It was very irresponsible of me not to try to move our family as soon as i could. I knew the people around us were crazy, and that terrorists shelter among the civilian population and use people like us as human shields. I was very selfish to stay here, because this was the only place I know, but I should have made the decision to get us out of here to start a new life where we would be safe.”

Edited October 10, 2023 by kfrankie

[skinsmarydu]

2 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

I agree.  It reminds me of when the U,S., England, and Russia were booming Berlin at the end of World War II.  Reduced the city to rubble, and there was no where to go.

Exactly.  People in Gaza just wanna be able to go somewhere, anywhere...and they can't.  They can't go east, and west is the sea.  Imagine if you were just stuck in your state, couldn't travel anywhere, can't even look for a better place to live. 

And now they're just gonna either hope or die. 

 

[Destino]

 

 

[bearrock]

21 minutes ago, skinsmarydu said:

Exactly.  People in Gaza just wanna be able to go somewhere, anywhere...and they can't.  They can't go east, and west is the sea.  Imagine if you were just stuck in your state, couldn't travel anywhere, can't even look for a better place to live. 

And now they're just gonna either hope or die. 

 

 

Both sides want what the other is not willing to give.  Palestinians, at minimum, want an independent state with sizeable land (and most Palestinians probably want Jerusalem).  Enough probably want a right of return that makes final resolution a pie in the sky.  Isreal would probably give no more than some amorphous notion of a quasi Palestinian state with some semblance of autonomy or a structure that pays lip service to an independent Palestinian state but in reality is millions crammed into a tiny piece of land.  

 

Before one assumes that solution is as simple as Isreal simply ceding back significant land to the Palestinian state, how many examples do we have in human history of countries simply handing land back to another country or group without being forced to do so?  If Native Americans said we want back our ancestral land or if Mexico says we demand a return of the land lost in the 1800's, how many US citizens are voting to approve that deal?  It's a ****ty situation with a terrible history, but let's not pretend that if Isreal would just come to their senses, all of this problem would go away.  

[tshile]

1 hour ago, bearrock said:

I don't see how this benefits Hamas in the slightest

That’s why the bigger picture Iran/russia/china thing makes sense

 

im not a fan of that theory but it makes more sense than hamas thought they would, what, get away with it?

[DCSaints_fan]

18 minutes ago, tshile said:

That’s why the bigger picture Iran/russia/china thing makes sense

 

im not a fan of that theory but it makes more sense than hamas thought they would, what, get away with it?

 

I suspect the hope was that excessive retaliation by Israel would bring in neighboring Arab states for some type of "final war".  There's always nutjobs with their visions of Armageddon

 

Also it may be a splinter group, granted the scale of this attack makes that unlikely.

 

For example there's even elements of the IRA who never accepted the Good Friday Agreement and continue to make attacks in Northern Ireland to this day

[RansomthePasserby]

1 hour ago, DCSaints_fan said:

 

I suspect the hope was that excessive retaliation by Israel would bring in neighboring Arab states for some type of "final war".  There's always nutjobs with their visions of Armageddon

Influence from Iran makes sense to me. I’m also wondering if they thought they could avoid retaliation if they took enough hostages as insurance. Perhaps the Hamas leadership wanted some death, destruction, and prisoners to exchange or use as shields, but they underestimated the horror their cohorts would display to Israel and the world. So they may have made a miscalculation and overplayed the terror hand. It’s not like they have individual control over the actions of every individual. 

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, kfrankie said:

I agree.  It reminds me of when the U,S., England, and Russia were bombing Berlin at the end of World War II.  Reduced the city to rubble, and there was no where to go.

 

Edit;  Actually I have reconsidered.  In response to your original question, “what would I tell my wife and kids if we were in Gaza, areas near our neighborhood were being bombed, and there was no way out?”

 

I would tell them “family, I am so very very sorry that I did not attempt to move us out of this godforsaken hell hole before something like this happened. I knew it was an enormous risk staying here. It was very irresponsible of me not to try to move our family as soon as i could. I knew the people around us were crazy, and that terrorists shelter among the civilian population and use people like us as human shields. I was very selfish to stay here, because this was the only place I know, but I should have made the decision to get us out of here to start a new life where we would be safe.”

 

People fled the bombing of Berlin.  The allies did not shut down the area around Berlin and not let people leave while bombing it.  Even going further, huge numbers of Germans fled the Soviets in the East to the western armies and were being cared for by the western (US, UK, and France) military.

 

Also, I suspect many of the people in the area would have left along time ago if they had the means, money, and ability to do so.  I doubt that many of the people in the area have stayed because that it is the only place they've known.  Even if they have the money to buy a plane ticket to the US, it isn't like you can just hop on a flight and come and live in the US.  This is where people to point out that the Arab/Muslim countries in the area use the Palestinians because even they don't want or easily take Palestinian refugees.  Heavily due to Israeli policy, they're poor, uneducated, associated with terrorists, and don't really have anywhere to go.

Edited October 10, 2023 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

That’s why the bigger picture Iran/russia/china thing makes sense

 

im not a fan of that theory but it makes more sense than hamas thought they would, what, get away with it?

 

Desperate people do desperate things and tend not to be logical.

 

Looking at the direction the Israeli government has moved over the last year or so,  In some cases, their land and homes have been being taken from them through violence for years, it is getting worse, and they've got no place else to go.  Many of the people involved also likely have limited experience beyond the area, and maybe hoped that their actions would call attention to the situation and bring a different response from the world.  Things like revenge don't tend to be logical from an outside perspective.

 

Much of the more sophisticated, wealthier, and more educated leadership probably is in a position to shield themselves from the ramifications of the attack (i.e. probably don't live in Gaza or do have the ability to leave Gaza) and don't care about the immediate impact.

[kfrankie]

31 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

People fled the bombing of Berlin.  The allies did not shut down the area around Berlin and not let people leave while bombing it.  Even going further, huge numbers of Germans fled the Soviets in the East to the western armies and were being cared for by the western (US, UK, and France) military.

 

Also, I suspect many of the people in the area would have left along time ago if they had the means, money, and ability to do so.  I doubt that many of the people in the area have stayed because that it is the only place they've known.  Even if they have the money to buy a plane ticket to the US, it isn't like you can just hop on a flight and come and live in the US.  This is where people to point out that the Arab/Muslim countries in the area use the Palestinians because even they don't want or easily take Palestinian refugees.  Heavily due to Israeli policy, they're poor, uneducated, associated with terrorists, and don't really have anywhere to go.

well, as a wise man, once said, if you have a left foot and a right foot, you have the ability to get the hell out of there. That’s the responsible thing to do when you’re in a  violent **** hole
 

And the Germans civilians that didn’t leave their cities, most of them bought into the ideology themselves. While they were civilians, and not directly involved in the holocaust (meaning they didn’t open the gas valves), those that lived near the concentration camps were forced to bury the dead as punishment. 

 

To say that there was no way out of Gaza over the last 18 years since the last occupation of the area is wrong.  To say that the people living there were not aware that hummus would use the most humans shields is also disingenuous  Gaza is not a prison. It’s just just a terribly dangerous place to live. Should have used a car, get a horse, or use your two feet to get yourself and your family the hell out there when you had the chance.

[Fergasun]

@kfrankie

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

Quote

In each of the 11 cases Human Rights Watch reviewed of people seeking to reach the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, for professional and educational opportunities not available in Gaza, Israeli authorities did not respond to requests for permits or denied them, either for security reasons or because they did not conform to the closure policy. Human Rights Watch also reviewed permit applications on the website of the Palestinian Civil Affairs Committee, or screenshots of it, including the status of the permit applications, when they were sent on to the Israeli authorities and the response received, if any.  Raed Issa, a 42-year-old artist, said that the Israeli authorities did not respond to his application for a permit in early December 2015, to attend an exhibit of his art at a Ramallah art gallery between December 27 and January 16, 2016.

...

Quote

Palestinian students and professionals are frequently unable to obtain permits to study or train in the West Bank. In 2016, Augusta Victoria Hospital in East Jerusalem agreed to have 10 physics students from Al-Azhar University in Gaza come to the hospital for a six-month training program. Israeli authorities denied five students permits without providing a rationale, two of the students said. The five other students initially received permits valid for only 14 days, and then encountered difficulties receiving subsequent permits. None were able to complete the full program, the two students said. One, Mahmoud Dabour, 28, said that when he applied for a second permit, he received no response. Two months later, he applied again and managed to get a permit valid for one week. He received one other permit, valid for 10 days, but then, when he returned and applied for the fifth time, Israeli authorities rejected his permit request without providing a reason. As a result, he could not finish the training program, and, without the certification participants receive upon completion, he said, he cannot apply for jobs or attend conferences or workshops abroad in the field.

...

Quote

Human Rights Watch spoke with 16 Gaza residents who sought to travel via Rafah. Almost all said they opted for this route because of the near impossibility of receiving an Israeli permit to travel via Erez.  Gaza residents hoping to leave via Rafah are required to register in advance via a process the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has deemed “confusing” and “obscure.” Gaza residents can either register via the formal registration process administered by Gaza’s Interior Ministry or informally via what is known as tanseeq, or travel coordination with Egyptian authorities, paying travel companies or mediators for a place on a separate list coordinated by Egyptian authorities. Having two distinct lists of permitted travelers coordinated by different authorities has fueled “allegations of the payment of bribes in Gaza and in Egypt to ensure travel and a faster response,” according to OCHA.

...
 

Quote

The formal process often takes two to three months, except for those traveling for medical reasons, whose requests are processed faster, said Gaza residents who sought to leave Gaza via Rafah. Egyptian authorities have at times rejected those seeking to cross Rafah into Egypt on the grounds that they did not meet specific criteria for travel. The criteria lack transparency, but Gisha reported that they include having a referral for a medical appointment in Egypt or valid documents to enter a third country.  To avoid the wait and risk of denial, many choose instead the tanseeq route. Several interviewees said that they paid large sums of money to Palestinian brokers or Gaza-based travel companies that work directly with Egyptian authorities to expedite people’s movement via Rafah. On social media, some of these companies advertise that they can assure travel within days to those who provide payment and a copy of their passport. The cost of tanseeq has fluctuated from several hundred US dollars to several thousand dollars over the last decade, based in part on how frequently Rafah is open.

Fortunately for him, that wise man was not born in Gaza!  

 

I'm going to repeat this whenever I post in this thread -- the Arab-Israeli hatred makes our race issues in America look like rainbows and skittles.  

[Renegade7]

Yea, enough with the "they shoulda got out" posts...clearly not that simple...

[CousinsCowgirl84]

7 hours ago, kfrankie said:

 

 

To say that there was no way out of Gaza over the last 18 years since the last occupation of the area is wrong.  To say that the people living there were not aware that hummus would use the most humans shields is also disingenuous  Gaza is not a prison. It’s just just a terribly dangerous place to live. Should have used a car, get a horse, or use your two feet to get yourself and your family the hell out there when you had the chance.

Which country have you had to immigrate from due to violence? How did you feel about leaving your family behind? It must have been hard to get back on your feet with no money, no family, no job, and having to learn a new language.
 

But you’re right, sounds like pretty simple stuff to me… Now that they don’t have any water, food, or electricity it should be even easier for them to evacuate…

 

Now that I think about it you’re right, Palestinians made their choice. They are all evil terrorists who will get what they deserve!

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by CousinsCowgirl84

[PeterMP]

8 hours ago, kfrankie said:

well, as a wise man, once said, if you have a left foot and a right foot, you have the ability to get the hell out of there. That’s the responsible thing to do when you’re in a  violent **** hole
 

And the Germans civilians that didn’t leave their cities, most of them bought into the ideology themselves. While they were civilians, and not directly involved in the holocaust (meaning they didn’t open the gas valves), those that lived near the concentration camps were forced to bury the dead as punishment. 

 

To say that there was no way out of Gaza over the last 18 years since the last occupation of the area is wrong.  To say that the people living there were not aware that hummus would use the most humans shields is also disingenuous  Gaza is not a prison. It’s just just a terribly dangerous place to live. Should have used a car, get a horse, or use your two feet to get yourself and your family the hell out there when you had the chance.

 

You can't walk out of Gaza into any other country without potentially being shot or imprisoned.  There is no border out of Gaza that you can just walk across and go live permanently without likely being imprisoned.  Israel is not allowing people to just walk out of Gaza and live and work in Israel legally.

 

As the war wore on and Germany civilian infrastructure was being attacked, many Germans absolutely left their cities.  By the time, the US and the Soviets are entering Germany and there is widespread bombing of civilian structure in Berlin, there are many German refugees fleeing bombings/Soviets.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Berlin_in_World_War_II

 

"By May 1945, 1.7 million people (40% of the population) had fled."

 

You just have no idea about what you're talking about.

 

Germans fleeing the conflict and the Soviets were cared for by US/UK troops in the west and after the war there was a whole program designed to get people back to their homes (if they wanted to) after the war and if not to find a country where they could live.  We put much more effort into resettling people after WWII than the Israelis have with people's homes/land they have taken.  Israel will bulldoze Palestinian villages in the occupied territories without any concern about where those people end up.

 

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/04/931379662/israel-uses-cover-of-us-election-to-destroy-palestinian-homes-critics-say

 

And they just can't walk out of Gaza and the West Bank and go to another country where they can legally work and live.  They are stuck between staying where they are or going to somewhere will they can be imprisoned or depending where they decide to cross a border shot.  Every country in the region and in the world has strict limits on who and how many people they are taking from Gaza and have for several decades.  To claim otherwise is just false.

Edited October 10, 2023 by PeterMP

[TradeTheBeal!]

 

[Renegade7]

Return to Gaza during a seige?

[Destino]

39 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

 

Not even letting the women and children out. What makes these people so radioactive? Syrian refugees made it all the way to Europe. Refugees from all over the world are displaced by violence and brave awful circumstances in an effort to find a safe harbor. Why must these people alone be locked into a war zone?

 

 

[tshile]

7 minutes ago, Destino said:

Not even letting the women and children out. What makes these people so radioactive? Syrian refugees made it all the way to Europe. Refugees from all over the world are displaced by violence and brave awful circumstances in an effort to find a safe harbor. Why must these people alone be locked into a war zone?

 

 

Base on what I’ve read from other people -

they’re incredibly poor and uneducated, and viewed as a terrorist-infiltrated or terrorist-like group. Add to it - no one really cared for them to begin with outside of being a pawn to use against Isreal. And of course the global politics of it all. 
 

therefore no one is really interested in taking them in. 

[PeterMP]

18 minutes ago, Destino said:

Not even letting the women and children out. What makes these people so radioactive? Syrian refugees made it all the way to Europe. Refugees from all over the world are displaced by violence and brave awful circumstances in an effort to find a safe harbor. Why must these people alone be locked into a war zone?

 

I do want to be clear, before this conflict, some people could get out of Gaza.  It wasn't something that could easily be done on a large scale.   There were plenty of people in Gaza that wanted to get out and couldn't.  And some European countries will take some Palestinians.  Not enough so that everybody that wants to get out in a year can actually get out.  There are ex-Palestinians living in Europe.

 

Here's a story from 2019 about actually getting out of Gaza.  And during the time the story is written, this was one of the best times to get out over the last few decades.  They talk about the gate to Egypt being "open".  (Opened for limited number of people every day and mostly for people that had the ability to pay a bribe to get on the list to be let out and find arrangements to go somewhere else after they were left out.  (Egypt was letting people out but not letting many stay in Egypt permanently)).

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/04/733487137/i-want-to-get-the-hell-out-of-here-thousands-of-palestinians-are-leaving-gaza

 

The idea that you could just walk out of Gaza and live and work in another country (legally) is just wrong, but it also wasn't completely impossible to get out of Gaza.  There are things we could have done during this time, including letting more people come here or paying other countries to take them.

 

There are also still Syrians stuck in refugee camps because nobody will take them.

Edited October 10, 2023 by PeterMP