2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[philibusters]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

I think the actual answer is that we thought we were going to lose Payne after the 2022 season so I think they saw Mathis as a future starter.

 

The odd thing about that post is he picked two players who were pretty bad their rookie year.  Ed Ingram was probably overdrafted based on his athleticism.  His college tape showed athleticism but somebody who needed more development.  The Vikings gambled on that athleticism and took him in the second round and started him as a rookie.  And he was bad as a rookie in pass blocking giving up 11 sacks on 58 pressures (44.4 pass blocking grade) which are bad numbers for a Guard.  Ingram's athleticism did help him run blocking where he was okay (63.4 PFF grade), but you are not expecting to give 60 pressures and 11 sacks from a Guards position.  Goedeke also had a rough rookie year finishing with a 43.7 PFF grade.

[NoVaSkins21]

Looks like Rivera came to his senses and the light came on

 

 

[RVAskins]

16 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I know.

Bill Bilicheck should give coaches a class on how to speak to the media.

[philibusters]

Over time I have come to support Rivera more.  I was critical at first.  I hated his decision to bench Haskins.  I had no idea if Haskins would pan out, but at the time I thought four games was enough time for him to develop.  With hindsight (largely coming from hearsay), Rivera probably made the right call as it sounds like Haskins wasn't great at preparation each week.  I am not 100% behind Rivera, but at this point I trust him and want him to have some leeway.

[CobraCommander]

11 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

Bill Bilicheck should give coaches a class on how to speak to the media.

 He's too verbose for me. Marshawn Lynch should be the benchmark. 

[Simmsy]

4 hours ago, Fan since a Fetus said:

One thing bothers me with the prepared statements and not just with Ron. When you are making an apology about something you know you’ve done wrong, why does a prepared statement need to be used? If you are apologizing, I feel it should come from you in the moment and not a sheet of paper. 
 

I understand if you have a speech to make, you need the talking points, but apologies imo shouldn’t be prepared if you believe it. I’m nitpicking here of course and not trying to pile on the dude. 

 

Fake apologies are best written by someone else.

[Skinsinparadise]

34 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

I think the actual answer is that we thought we were going to lose Payne after the 2022 season so I think they saw Mathis as a future starter.

 

The odd thing about that post is he picked two players who were pretty bad their rookie year.  Ed Ingram was probably overdrafted based on his athleticism.  His college tape showed athleticism but somebody who needed more development.  The Vikings gambled on that athleticism and took him in the second round and started him as a rookie.  And he was bad as a rookie in pass blocking giving up 11 sacks on 58 pressures (44.4 pass blocking grade) which are bad numbers for a Guard.  Ingram's athleticism did help him run blocking where he was okay (63.4 PFF grade), but you are not expecting to give 60 pressures and 11 sacks from a Guards position.  Goedeke also had a rough rookie year finishing with a 43.7 PFF grade.

 

I liked Quan, he was on my guys list, top 20 favorite players in that draft.  But so was Mauch and he fit the greater need.  O'Cyrus Torrence I was back and forth on.

 

I think the two worst calls from Rivera as to the O line were going with Jamin Davis over Darrisaw and releasing Moses.

 

I was good with them taking Mathis.  To me the operatve point is Ron clearly doesn't prioritize O line in the draft. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[LetMeSeeYourWarFace21]

6 hours ago, NoVaSkins21 said:

Rivera's comments are exactly why he is a mediocre head coach and why his teams start slow.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this stuff needs to stay in house

 

IMO, Rivera knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he made that statement about the players & EB. I dont know why he did it, but he said that **** on purpose. This wasnt a random Rivera mishap, if one thing about Ron, he knows to keep stuff in house. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I think our difference on this is simple.  Maybe?

 

A.  You take the all the questions as a defense of what they are doing now because we don't know and any criticism is not valid because hey we don't know?

But I really am not defending what they did.  I've been critical about a number of things and the approach to the off-season. 

 

- In the draft day thread, I wanted the whole lot of them fired on the spot for going defense with the first pick.  It was my immediate first post to fire everybody after the Forbes pick.  And while I think Forbes is going to be a good player, I still stand by that. They should have found a way to go offense in the first round, even if that meant being aggressive and trading up.  

- I doubled down and said they should be fired out of a cannon after they picked another defensive guy in the second round.

- I wanted them to be more aggressive and trade UP to get an OT.  I posted about that leading up to the draft and haven't changed my mind. 

- Signing a guy they think is a starting center to essentially a 2 year deal + drafting a center in the 3rd round + having Larson is a complete mis-allocation of resources.  That's dumb.

- I think the whole S. Charles experiment is stupid and an exercise in futility.  His track record is he's either going to stink OR get hurt, or (most likely) both.  This has a Jay Gruden "Luavao" situation written all over it.  "Hey guys, Luavao is good."  No Jay, he's not.    

- I wanted them to do SOMETHING at TE, so they weren't going into the season with the same group as last year, who all got hurt.  They didn't.

- I also was horrified they offered a contract to REDACTED to begin with.  Thank God Atlanta saved us by giving him more money, otherwise can you imagine the complete **** show this camp would be with that guy hanging around, and the media's infatuation with him and his moxie?  To me offering REDACTED a contract should cost people jobs.  If somebody wanted to put odds that it will cost people in Atlanta their jobs, I'd be happy to take that bet.

 

The only difference is I think the criticism of the OL in general BEFORE there was even a single padded practice was way over the top from literally everybody.  You can criticize who they brought in, but they did bring in 2 guys who did start for playoff teams to be starters.  Personally, injuries aside, I think Cosmi at RG makes sense and he could be good in that role.  And Leno is "fine."  So my general point was that it's not yet time for doom and gloom.  They assembled a group, let's at least see what it looks like before declaring the season dead in June, July and August.  

 

There are going to be questions about the group until they perform well.  If they ever perform well. 

 

2 things on Ron:

1. I really don't listen to what he says anymore and put any faith in it whatsoever.  I'm not sure he even knows what he's saying.  After that debacle of a post-season joint presser with Martin Mayhew, I was completely out on listening to or trusting anything he says.  He should just put a recording of "On to Cleveland" on the podium and keep his trap shut.

 

2. I was out on him as a GM and the decisions after the draft.  The first 3 picks were a complete debacle, and that's not because i don't like any of the players.  Picking 2 defensive guys in the first 2 rounds and then a guy you WANT to be nothing more than a backup for 2 years in the third round is just absolutely dumb.  I get "best player available."  But I don't actually care.  It was just totally stupid.  

 

I'm basically done with Ron all the way around, and unless he manages to engineer an outstanding season, I'll be happy to thank him for his services and move on.

 

That said, I am slightly more optimistic than almost everybody that I think they can win 9 or 10 games and get into the playoffs. I'm predicting 10.  Which will make things REALLY interesting next off-season.  He won't be back as GM no matter what.  But could he be back as HC?  I see a path to that. 

 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

b.  I take it as a team with many questions, its rare for that to all be solved in their favor.   Typically teams with many questions aren't regarded as highly as teams with less.  The reason being its rare for team with many questions to have them answered all in the postive. 

I don't think every question the team has is going to be answered positively.  But more than positive/negative, I'm just really excited to see how they do things.  As I said, I'm interested in things like how they are going to spread the ball around, which running backs are going to get used and how, is D. Brown going to get more targets than Samuel (I think that's actually a sneaky possibility), how much do they use the TEs, etc.  

 

I'm more interested in how the whole operation is going to look in real games than anything.  We'll see.

 

It could be a repeat of the Zorn offenses.  Or it could not be.  Time will tell.  

[philibusters]

29 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I liked Quan, he was on my guys list, top 20 favorite players in that draft.  But so was Mauch and he fit the greater need.  O'Cyrus Torrence I was back and forth on.

 

I think the two worst calls from Rivera as to the O line were going with Jamin Davis over Darrisaw and releasing Moses.

 

I was good with them taking Mathis.  To me the operatve point is Ron clearly doesn't prioritize O line in the draft. 

 

Agree on Darrisaw.  In 2021 I woudl have picked Darrisaw at 19 and in 2022 I would have picked Kyle Hamilton at 11 (which with hindsight probably woudl not have been a great pick given the trade back options).

 

But having Darrisaw on this O-Line would be a game changer because he is a foundational piece to build around.  Probably one of the 10 best OT's in the league.  I don't think we absolutely had to start Cosmi year 1.  Plenty of teams will stash a second round pick for a year.  That was the plan for Mathis for example.  I think we released Moses because we wanted Cosmi to start year 1, and couldn't justify paying Moses 10 million a year to be a backup (he probably would have been one of the 6 or 7 highest paid guys on that 2021 team at 10 million a year) but Cosmi could have taken over at Guard in year 2 after Scherff and Flowers left.

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, philibusters said:

 

I think the actual answer is that we thought we were going to lose Payne after the 2022 season so I think they saw Mathis as a future starter.

 

The odd thing about that post is he picked two players who were pretty bad their rookie year.  Ed Ingram was probably overdrafted based on his athleticism.  His college tape showed athleticism but somebody who needed more development.  The Vikings gambled on that athleticism and took him in the second round and started him as a rookie.  And he was bad as a rookie in pass blocking giving up 11 sacks on 58 pressures (44.4 pass blocking grade) which are bad numbers for a Guard.  Ingram's athleticism did help him run blocking where he was okay (63.4 PFF grade), but you are not expecting to give 60 pressures and 11 sacks from a Guards position.  Goedeke also had a rough rookie year finishing with a 43.7 PFF grade.

Mathis was the replacement for Iaoniddias and Settle. Ron was serious about keeping Payne.

[NewCliche21]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  I am toying with going to that one, but definitely going to the Denver one.

 

I do think though at some point a regime whether its this one or the next one has to win to hold this renewed fan enthusiasm. 

 

His birthday is the day before, it's effing perfection. We won the Super Bowl when I was a few months younger than he will be. I wasted my entire childhood and early adulthood with that POS owner.

The relief of that inordinate and unquantifiable pressure is like peeing after a cross country road trip. Sure, there will be needs to meet later.  But god damn, this feeling is so good while it's here.

[philibusters]

32 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Mathis was the replacement for Iaoniddias and Settle. Ron was serious about keeping Payne.

 

I think it was up in the air when they would be able to keep Payne.  So you are correct, Mathis was immediate depth.  And Mathis was insurance if we didn't bring back Payne.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

That said, I am slightly more optimistic than almost everybody that I think they can win 9 or 10 games and get into the playoffs. I'm predicting 10.  Which will make things REALLY interesting next off-season.  He won't be back as GM no matter what.  But could he be back as HC?  I see a path to that. 

 

 

When someone is predicting a good season it would be predicated on a regime that did most things right.   Clearly.  You are just citing some of things you didn't like in that soup but clearly you like the soup.  Heck when I was backing Ron's regime, i didn't love everything they did either.  And i'd point out what i didn't like.  But i liked most of what they did.

 

Your default reaction as to the big picture -- macro view of the season from what I observed is to challenge the negative takes especially from the media.   I know from some of our debates that you've spun things in a positive way from some of the exact same things we've digested.

 

My point is from my point of view the 10-7 take you got of the season comes out in some posts and sometimes in a feisty way.    That's cool.  But I don't find you any more balanced than anyone else.  Your slant is evident in plenty of posts.   But I'll concede its odd to be both predicting a good season, 10-7, which should mean playoffs while also being out on Ron. 

 

That's a unique take on this thread.  

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

The only difference is I think the criticism of the OL in general BEFORE there was even a single padded practice was way over the top from literally everybody.  You can criticize who they brought in, but they did bring in 2 guys who did start for playoff teams to be starters.  Personally, injuries aside, I think Cosmi at RG makes sense and he could be good in that role.  And Leno is "fine."  So my general point was that it's not yet time for doom and gloom.  They assembled a group, let's at least see what it looks like before declaring the season dead in June, July and August.  

 

 

But this point to me as melodramatic as what you accuse others of doing.  Don't recall people saying the season is over after a few practices.  i think there was a post or two that joked about it. 

 

As for the negativity about the O line.  If someone thought little of what they did to improve the unit and the early evidence is also not hot.  Your point in effect is ignore any early indications and ignore your predispositions, too.

 

People don't tend to do that.  Just like its tough for you to hide your optimistic takes about the season -- your predispositions are fair to have.  I listen to Keim and I hear a dude who doesn't come off high on the O line, you hear the same podcast and talk about he backs Paulsen's recent optimism.   That's your predispostion in play, just as much as anyone elses.  

Edited August 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

32 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Mathis was the replacement for Iaoniddias and Settle. Ron was serious about keeping Payne.

Speaking of, remember how everybody was up in arms about letting Matty I. and Settle leave because they were such important pieces? And Settle was going to break out, and all that?

 

Settle had 19 total tackles in 2022 for the Bills, which matched his career high in 2020.  He had 355 snaps, or about 20 a game, which essentially matched his 2020 numbers. 

 

Matt I. played in 13 games and had 37 tackles. Basically in line with what he had done previously.

 

End Tangent.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

42 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

His birthday is the day before, it's effing perfection. We won the Super Bowl when I was a few months younger than he will be. I wasted my entire childhood and early adulthood with that POS owner.

The relief of that inordinate and unquantifiable pressure is like peeing after a cross country road trip. Sure, there will be needs to meet later.  But god damn, this feeling is so good while it's here.

 

That's cool.  A friend of mine is having a birthday bash the day before, so for me to attend that game i'd need to fly in to the game the morning of and head right to the stadium, I've never done that before but i am leaning towards doing it.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Get the kid some solid reps. Hopefully they can move the chains and gain some confidence.

[Voice_of_Reason]

12 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

My point is from my point of view the 10-7 take you got of the season comes out in some posts and sometimes in a feisty way.    That's cool.  But I don't find you any more balanced than anyone else.  Your slant is evident in plenty of posts.   But I'll concede its odd to be both predicting a good season, 10-7, which should mean playoffs while also being out on Ron.

It might be unique. I think, however, the majority of the coaching is being done by EB and JDR.  And not Ron.  

 

I dunno.  It makes sense to me.  I don't love the off-season they've had, but they went 8-8-1 last year with REDACTED/Wentz at QB, I think they should get better play from Howell, I don't think the OL is going to be worse, I think EB is an upgrade from Turner, and the defense should be at least as good. 

 

Ergo, I think they made an ~1.5 game improvement. I'm not sure that's way out there on a limb being crazy optimistic or anything. 

 

I think they could have made a much, much bigger jump, and I think they squandered picks and the off-season strategy was bad. 

 

But nowhere do I see anybody saying they got worse.  And if they didn't get worse, and they got a little better, then they should have a little better record.

 

And I don't play the schedule game at all.  Literally nobody knows how good any team is going to be when you play them.  2 years ago when the schedule came out, it looked like Dallas, Pittsburgh and the 49ers was going to be killer.  Dak was hurt, all of SF was hurt, and Pitt was a paper tiger.  You just never know how that stuff is going to play out.  Even playing the "QB Schedule Game," while a bit better, is tough because every year good QBs have bad seasons, and somebody like Geno Smith pops up with a really good season out of the blue.  The only thing which you could count on consistently for 15 years was Peyton and Tom were going to be outstanding.  They Peyton got hurt, and it was just Tom.  

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It might be unique. I think, however, the majority of the coaching is being done by EB and JDR.  And not Ron.  

 

 

 

I don't see how a 10-7 season also equals being down on Ron but to each their own on that.

 

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I dunno.  It makes sense to me.  I don't love the off-season they've had, but they went 8-8-1 last year with REDACTED/Wentz at QB, I think they should get better play from Howell, I don't think the OL is going to be worse, I think EB is an upgrade from Turner, and the defense should be at least as good. 

 

Ergo, I think they made an ~1.5 game improvement. I'm not sure that's way out there on a limb being crazy optimistic or anything. 

 

 

I think if it was the same schedule I agree.  I know some think the schedule is meaningless right now.  But 2 years ago it was considered hard.  It ended up hard.  Last year it was considered easy.  It ended up easy.   This year i don't think the AFC East, NFC West will be easy.

 

I don't think you can just bank on injuries alone completely overturning a hard schedule.  Do I think the Jets take a step back now that Aaron Rodgers is their Qb instead of Zach?  the Dolphins are a bit worse with even more weapons added?  The Bills finally suck out of nowhere after their big run.  The 49ers strong run is over even with them making their stout D even stronger?  Denver is a tad worse woth Sean Payton as opposed to Hackett?   

 

My point is those teams are stacked or improved at least in theory.  Will most of the big players like Josh Allen, Aaron Rodgers, and company miss their games this season against us.  I seriously doubt it.   Will we got lucky a game or maybe 2?  Maybe.  I also think this is a tough division. 

 

lol, ironically i just listened to Keim's podcast today, this was the most optimistic he was about the O line.  he said they've improved slightly each day (in recent days) than references Paulsen.  So maybe Paulsen got to Keim considering Paulsen referenced Keim's negativity about the O line in one of his recent podcasts.    Keim goes Paulsen explained to him thay while Wylie doesn't look good in his 1 and 1's, he's looked better in the team drills when he works in tandem and gets help, etc.  Then Keim said Chris Paul looked strong for some reps and they like his strength but also said he expects Charles to get the #1 job back when he's healthy.

 

You are high on Warren Sharp I've gathered from some posts.  He's obsessed with team's schedules let alone thinks they are meaningless right now.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[xxprodigyxx]

6 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

The content is all that really matters, it's the only thing that can be genuinely consequential.  Freaking out about this nonsense in order to attack Ron's competence as a coach is missing the point.  Is Ron a bad coach?  No, and his comments don't change that in any way.  That locker room is all in on him, they get him and his style.

you are right in the grand scheme of things, but now that this has been put out, you know what's going to happen right? if there are struggles during the season, the media is going to come back to this and start spouting off all sorts of non-sense about if EB has lost the team and speculating on turmoil just to get clicks. the point is to not give the media an inch. they will turn it into a mile and make things a headache. the media takes it as bonus points if they can create a divide in the locker room.

Edited August 9, 2023 by xxprodigyxx

[Hooper]

2 hours ago, LetMeSeeYourWarFace21 said:

 

IMO, Rivera knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he made that statement about the players & EB. I dont know why he did it, but he said that **** on purpose. This wasnt a random Rivera mishap, if one thing about Ron, he knows to keep stuff in house. 

I don't think we have been watching the same guy answer questions. 

[Renegade7]

I feel officially checked out on the offseason and lookin for nothingburgers to get anxiety about.

 

We play in two days and this is officially a house money season.

 

Win and we have something to build on.

 

Lose and folks that know what they doin will find folks that know what they doin.

 

Win Win in my book.

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Speaking of, remember how everybody was up in arms about letting Matty I. and Settle leave because they were such important pieces? And Settle was going to break out, and all that?

 

Settle had 19 total tackles in 2022 for the Bills, which matched his career high in 2020.  He had 355 snaps, or about 20 a game, which essentially matched his 2020 numbers. 

 

Matt I. played in 13 games and had 37 tackles. Basically in line with what he had done previously.

 

End Tangent.

 

This staff knows what their doing when it comes to defense.

There's been pieces missing causing gaps in coverage but I truly feel we're very close to having one of those near historically elite defenses.