2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Koolblue13]

22 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Agreed, if Howell gets any protection, defenses are going to need to be ready for the ball going at any and all levels. And then there's his mobility  

Can't wait, such a difference from that weenie armed dude that moved to Atlanta. 

Howell can get out of the pocket at any time and hit a WR anywhere on the field. 

 

He's fearless.

 

Not like Sneakers and his turkey launcher lofting murder balls to anyone that wants them.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

As for the offensive line talk.

 

I agree that pads by far will be the better test.  But the idea that non-pad practices are worthless to judge the O line IMO is a bridge too far.   And lol, I feel I am 100% right on that, zero doubt. Nada.  Not because I am any expert.  Far from it of course.  But because I've seen probably about 40 practices in total over the years, most of them non-pads, and I never seen anything like I did yesterday. 

 

If heck I was thinking man that's deja vu, when aren't the O line pockets absolutely destroyed on just about every play when I've watched practice -- then I'd agree.  But that's far from the case.  I've seen bad performances indeed.  But nothing like yesterday.  Yesterday was a joke.    I gather Ron didn't want to line them up that much against each other because he wanted to be able to run some actual plays, and it perhaps came out somewhat embarrassing in front of 10,000 fans.   I usually see the first.team D line face the offense much more than I did yesterday.

 

And as to my point, ditto really every reporter, including Logan Paulsen who played the game talking about the subject as to non-pads.  Yes it means something that the O line struggled.  But of course pads will be the better test and they couch their points with that.  IMHO its the better test more so for the OTs than the interior.  Right now, the edge rushers can use space unimpeded.  So I think the point of lets see them in pads is a good one.  It's true.  But IMHO the non-pad stuff means nothing, takes the point too far. 

 

 I like Chris Paul's potential.  I've been off of Charles for awhile.  I didn't notice it but apparently Paul replaced Charles with the first teams towards the end of practice yesterday.  Maybe the coaching staff had enough of Charles' struggles?  I've heard multiple people who watched all the practices reference Charles struggiling.  I think it was Keim who said they'd like to see Paul use positiion flex and play some tackle, too but also said they see him as a better guard. 

 

  

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 I like Chris Paul's potential.  I've been off of Charles for awhile.  I didn't notice it but apparently Paul replaced Charles with the first teams towards the end of practice yesterday.  Maybe the coaching stuff had enough of Charles' struggles?  I've heard multiple people who watched all the practices reference Charles struggling.  I think it was Keim who said they'd like to see Paul use position flex and play some tackle, too but also said they see him as a better guard. 

 

  

You and I have been in the same place with Charles. I have tried to ease up on that with all the positive talk up to this point from the coaching on their wanting him to start at G. I just can't trust him being able to....too many disappointments up to this point. I am placing more hopes on Paul pulling past him fast and grabbing the position

 

Would love to see the IOL by the end of the year being Paul, Strom, Cosmi

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

This is great to see, wow!!!

Edited July 30, 2023 by DWinzit

[Skinsinparadise]

As to those pushing more optimism about the O line.  For me, the only way I could be sold on it is if Paul starts and looks good and Cosmi can show he's healthy.  And on that front we won't know until the season plays out.  

 

I think the disconnect speaking for myself in the arguments here is I don't buy the theory that some purport that OK players at every spot = an OK O line as if that translates to OK peformances in every game.  It's a neat linear argument, it sounds good but I don't agree with the premise. 

 

At least by reputation, Gates, Leno, Wylie are just OK.  Some think worse.  And that also includes run blocking.  The idea that we have undersized O linemen and that means watch out for the run blocking, ala its the old school Mike Shanahan style lines who majored in outside zone -- doesn't fit the reputations of these guys.

 

Brandon Thon who used to play some college O line if I recall and now is seen as an O line guru by draft geeks.  He's sort of the Warren Sharp of studying that unit who dives into the spot deeply said it well for me once -- the position isn't that different than other spots in that its in the matchups and whose better.  So an OK player on the O line can likely handle an OK D lineman.  A great D lineman is likely to get the better end of an OK O lineman, etc.

 

I think what's uniquely bad about this offensive line is there arguably is no one you can argue is a great player at pass protection.  And even D lines which are mediocre often have a good to great D. lineman in the lineup so that dude is likely going to be disruptive versus this O line because there is no obvious stud in the mix.  SF might not have a great O line but heck  for example Chase has to deal with Trent and Trent shuts down Chase.  Minny has Darrisaw, etc.  We got no player like that. 

 

Thibodeaux wasn't great last year but was good and good enough to give Leno problems in big moments in those matchups.   The idea that an OK unit will play OK works IMO if you likewise play an OK D line.  But when you play for example our division foes, they likely will be overmatched.  Our division foes have good to great D lines.  When Greg Cosell, was talking about in a podcast about the Eagles versus this team he went straight to the D line-O line matchup, to explain the Eagles should be fine.   

 

In summary, IMO a unit for 5 at best OK players IMO doesn't equal OK on the aggregate.  It equals below average because of matchup issues.    And for those who are annoyed at the discussion.  I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade. 😎  In your shoes, I'd just ignore those who disagree.   It's just opinion. 

 

Those saying the pessimists about the unit should back off because we don't know.  I agree we don't know until the games unfold.  But if that's the bar now, then we should shut down every thread. Most of our talk is on topics about what we expect to happen.  Good and bad.  None of it is fact.  It's all opinion.  And i am in the good category on most things. That is, optimistic on most things.   Just not this unit. 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Did the starting Dline ease up a bit vs the 2nd string O?

 

Didn't hear to much about Jacoby in general but if he was going against the 1s alot was he facing a constant jailbreak too?

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

You and I have been in the same place with Charles. I have tried to ease up on that with all the positive talk up to this point from the coaching on their wanting him to start at G. I just can't trust him being able to....too many disappointments up to this point. I am placing more hopes on Paul pulling past him fast and grabbing the position

 

Would love to see the IOL by the end of the year being Paul, Strom, Cosmi

This is great to see, wow!!!

 

 

I'd by lying if I said I studied Lucas as a run blocker.  But, I noticed high PFF scores on that front.  But I didn't want to mention that because its sets a person or two off whenever PFF is mentioned and am tired of that debate.

 

But in camp yesterday, it was hard for me not to notice his size at that spot.   Wow.  I've seen him before but I was right behind the O lineman, feet away for some of that practice, and I was taken by his size especially standing next to the other guys.  Looking at both Wylie and Lucas up close, it looks like Lucas can put Wylie in his pocket.    As impressive looking is Lucas, Wylie isn't to my eyes.

 

Yeah as for optimism about the O line going forward, it would have to play out similar for me -- that exact same interior.  Then draft a LT high and likely sign a RT in FA. 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/commanders-planning-stick-cornelius-lucas-150731676.html#:~:text=Lucas has been good in,win rate % in the NFL.&text=He's taken advantage of an,stud in the ground game.

"As for Lucas, each time he enters the lineup, he excels. Lucas has been good in pass protection, but he has been dominant as a run blocker this year."

[Koolblue13]

Charles blows. I'm shocked that he's even on this team still. 

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I'd by lying if I said I studied Lucas as a run blocker.  But, I noticed high PFF scores on that front.  But I didn't want to mention that because its sets a person or two off whenever PFF is mentioned and am tired of that debate.

 

But in camp yesterday, it was hard for me not to notice his size at that spot.   Wow.  I've seen him before but I was right behind the O lineman, feet away for some of that practice, and I was taken by his size especially standing next to the other guys.  Looking at both Wylie and Lucas up close, it looks like Lucas can put Wylie in his pocket.    As impressive looking is Lucas, Wylie isn't to my eyes.

 

Yeah as for optimism about the O line going forward, it would have to play out similar for me -- that exact same interior.  Then draft a LT high and likely sign a RT in FA. 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/commanders-planning-stick-cornelius-lucas-150731676.html#:~:text=Lucas has been good in,win rate % in the NFL.&text=He's taken advantage of an,stud in the ground game.

"As for Lucas, each time he enters the lineup, he excels. Lucas has been good in pass protection, but he has been dominant as a run blocker this year."

If Daniels can play LG, Strom C, Cosmi RG and Paul at RT by the end of the season, I'll be optimistic going into next year.

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

Did the starting Dline ease up a bit vs the 2nd string O?

 

Didn't hear to much about Jacoby in general but if he was going against the 1s alot was he facing a constant jailbreak too?

 

From what I observed the D line mostly kept to practicing among themselves on the far field.  

 

It was actually amusing in a way.  They'd come to do some head to heads with the first team offense, they'd destroy them in short order and then they'd go off again to practice among themselves.  I didn't really have a good view of the D line practicing where I was at.  I had a good view of the QBs-WRs and the head to head matchups.

 

Not sure if the 2nd string D line eased up against the 2nd string O line.  But I had a good view of Lucas from where he was at, and he specifically didn't have any issues with the pass rush.  Just guessing this but maybe Paul looked good with that unit.  I couldn't tell from where I was at to judge individual O line performances aside from RT and I could also see the overall the unit holding up or not by keeping my eyes on the QB.  But it was easy to see Brissett wasn't under seige like Howell was. 

 

The other centers, Larsen, Stromberg, I didn't have a great view of but from what I observed didn't have the snap issues that Gates did.  I've not heard of Gates struggiling with it in other practices so maybe that was a one off for him. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Charles blows. I'm shocked that he's even on this team still. 

If Daniels can play LG, Strom C, Cosmi RG and Paul at RT by the end of the season, I'll be optimistic going into next year.

 

Not sure about Paul at RT.  I get @Going Commando's point, he did play tackle in college.  

 

But I've heard they internally liked him at guard more so at tackle and considered both spots.  I recall Keim saying that last year.  So if a tackle is seen as a better guard by the coaching staff who has the player in house, that usually plays out to reality.  But as a backup it looks like they want to give him some reps at tackle, just like they did in the past with Charles.

 

But I do agree that they might have the answers to the interior O line in house.  I doubt it sorts itself out this year but decent shot it does in 2024.  That would leave tackle.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Gates and Wylie are not step ups from Norwell and Turner and they're gonna force them into starting roles anyway.

[Chris 44]

37 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As to those pushing more optimism about the O line.  For me, the only way I could be sold on it is if Paul starts and looks good and Cosmi can show he's healthy.  And on that front we won't know until the season plays out.  

 

I think the disconnect speaking for myself in the arguments here is I don't buy the theory that some purport that OK players at every spot = an OK O line as if that translates to OK peformances in every game.  It's a neat linear argument, it sounds good but I don't agree with the premise. 

 

At least by reputation, Gates, Leno, Wylie are just OK.  Some think worse.  And that also includes run blocking.  The idea that we have undersized O linemen and that means watch out for the run blocking, ala its the old school Mike Shanahan style lines who majored in outside zone -- doesn't fit the reputations of these guys.

 

Brandon Thon who used to play some college O line if I recall and now is seen as an O line guru by draft geeks.  He's sort of the Warren Sharp of studying that unit who dives into the spot deeply said it well for me once -- the position isn't that different than other spots in that its in the matchups and whose better.  So an OK player on the O line can likely handle an OK D lineman.  A great D lineman is likely to get the better end of an OK O lineman, etc.

 

I think what's uniquely bad about this offensive line is there arguably is no one you can argue is a great player at pass protection.  And even D lines which are mediocre often have a good to great D. lineman in the lineup so that dude is likely going to be disruptive versus this O line because there is no obvious stud in the mix.  SF might not have a great O line but heck  for example Chase has to deal with Trent and Trent shuts down Chase.  Minny has Darrisaw, etc.  We got no player like that. 

 

Thibodeaux wasn't great last year but was good and good enough to give Leno problems in big moments in those matchups.   The idea that an OK unit will play OK works IMO if you likewise play an OK D line.  But when you play for example our division foes, they likely will be overmatched.  Our division foes have good to great D lines.  When Greg Cosell, was talking about in a podcast about the Eagles versus this team he went straight to the D line-O line matchup, to explain the Eagles should be fine.   

 

In summary, IMO a unit for 5 at best OK players IMO doesn't equal OK on the aggregate.  It equals below average because of matchup issues.    And for those who are annoyed at the discussion.  I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade. 😎  In your shoes, I'd just ignore those who disagree.   It's just opinion. 

 

Those saying the pessimists about the unit should back off because we don't know.  I agree we don't know until the games unfold.  But if that's the bar now, then we should shut down every thread. Most of our talk is on topics about what we expect to happen.  Good and bad.  None of it is fact.  It's all opinion.  And i am in the good category on most things. That is, optimistic on most things.   Just not this unit. 

 

It just seems unreal that issues at OL have not been addressed. Feels like we are wasting some really good talent at other positions by not shoring up the line. Like putting a new racing engine in car but not fixing the flat tire. I get that this may be a throw away year but it doesn't have to be.

[Going Commando]

Lucas is a big power blocker with zero range.  SIP that run blocking win rate score for him would be a good example of how decontextualized grading can skew perception of the skill set and play of a player.  It would be logical to extrapolate from that stat that run blocking is a major strength for Lucas, but we know it's not and that he was so infrequently used as the PoA blocker, and that his role in our run game was very limited.  Think about why he never pulls and never reaches on outside runs or reaches on backside cut off blocks.  Think about how he's never the puller on screen throws.  He doesn't have the range for it, and it's not a demonstration of strength to have a high win rate on the easiest and least consequential blocks in your scheme.

 

The screen and outside run game are a big part of the KC system, and we want to import that.  We want to run that on the right side of our offense too.  The blocks that they gave Wylie last year are blocks that Lucas just can't execute.  We all know our screen game sucked last season.  We all know the outside running game was brutally inefficient.  Lucas's range is no small part of that.

 

Lucas will get in his snaps this season, just as he always does.  Wylie and Leno will miss time.  While everyone is healthy, we need to keep our full playbook open and go with Wylie at RT.

[Going Commando]

22 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Not sure about Paul at RT.  I get @Going Commando's point, he did play tackle in college.  

 

But I've heard they internally liked him at guard more so at tackle and considered both spots.  I recall Keim saying that last year.  So if a tackle is seen as a better guard by the coaching staff who has the player in house, that usually plays out to reality.  But as a backup it looks like they want to give him some reps at tackle, just like they did in the past with Charles.

 

They're probably prepping him at tackle too because they want him to be ready to get on the field no matter where because we don't know who is going to go down with injury.  If heaven forbid Wylie gets carted off the field tomorrow, we're going to need Paul to play tackle.

 

Remember that debate back in the draft thread about how it was ridiculous to change the position/alignment of OLs in our projections of them?  Remember my point that, while it's difficult, position/alignment changes happen all of the time in the NFL, and that it is in fact an expectation that almost all of them be able to do it?  This is the life of a back up NFL OL.  They need to be able to play on both sides of a line and flex between guard and tackle or center and guard.  Guys who can't don't have long careers.  Paul's best shot at ever getting on the field as a regular starter will be to make himself an equally appealing contingency at four different positions.

 

I like him at tackle but honestly don't care where he plays.  I think he can bring equal value to the team at guard or tackle.  I think guard is a high value position, especially in the KC scheme, where they executed most of the key blocks in their run game, and where getting a high end player in Trey Smith was a key to turning around their OL.

[RVAskins]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I agree that pads by far will be the better test.  But the idea that non-pad practices are worthless to judge the O line IMO is a bridge too far.

I do agree with this. Non pad are not worthless. Coaches use it to see if players understand their assignments and to see who's struggling at their position. I think the intensity of the line play increases once they are in pads. I'm really looking forward to the scrimmage with the Ravens.

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 I like Chris Paul's potential.  I've been off of Charles for awhile.  I didn't notice it but apparently Paul replaced Charles with the first teams towards the end of practice yesterday.  Maybe the coaching stuff had enough of Charles' struggles?  I've heard multiple people who watched all the practices reference Chartles struggiling.  I think it was Keim who said they'd like to see Paul use positiion flex and play some tackle, too but also said they see him as a better guard. 

 

  

 

 

On the bright side, you may have just coined a new nickname for Charles…

[ixcuincle]

Noticing some new concessions in the stadium.

 

Lot of fridges where you walk up and grab from a fridge and pay.

 

Fuku is here

 

 

DMV crab rolls

 

 

[KillBill26]

4 minutes ago, ixcuincle said:

Noticing some new concessions in the stadium.

 

Fuku is here

Fuku isn't a spot for food. Thats just a sign all of the fans left for Snyder on his way out.

 

I'm not from the area, I can't believe that's the name of a legit business lol.

[Number 44]

15 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

Fuku isn't a spot for food. Thats just a sign all of the fans left for Snyder on his way out.

 

I'm not from the area, I can't believe that's the name of a legit business lol.

Blomy.  😁

[philibusters]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for the offensive line talk.

 

I agree that pads by far will be the better test.  But the idea that non-pad practices are worthless to judge the O line IMO is a bridge too far.   And lol, I feel I am 100% right on that, zero doubt. Nada.  Not because I am any expert.  Far from it of course.  But because I've seen probably about 40 practices in total over the years, most of them non-pads, and I never seen anything like I did yesterday. 

 

If heck I was thinking man that's deja vu, when aren't the O line pockets absolutely destroyed on just about every play when I've watched practice -- then I'd agree.  But that's far from the case.  I've seen bad performances indeed.  But nothing like yesterday.  Yesterday was a joke.    I gather Ron didn't want to line them up that much against each other because he wanted to be able to run some actual plays, and it perhaps came out somewhat embarrassing in front of 10,000 fans.   I usually see the first.team D line face the offense much more than I did yesterday.

 

And as to my point, ditto really every reporter, including Logan Paulsen who played the game talking about the subject as to non-pads.  Yes it means something that the O line struggled.  But of course pads will be the better test and they couch their points with that.  IMHO its the better test more so for the OTs than the interior.  Right now, the edge rushers can use space unimpeded.  So I think the point of lets see them in pads is a good one.  It's true.  But IMHO the non-pad stuff means nothing, takes the point too far. 

 

 I like Chris Paul's potential.  I've been off of Charles for awhile.  I didn't notice it but apparently Paul replaced Charles with the first teams towards the end of practice yesterday.  Maybe the coaching staff had enough of Charles' struggles?  I've heard multiple people who watched all the practices reference Charles struggiling.  I think it was Keim who said they'd like to see Paul use positiion flex and play some tackle, too but also said they see him as a better guard. 

 

  

 

 

I wouldn't discount yesterday simply because the players don't have pads on.  However, listening to the beat reporters, the consensus was that of the four practices, yesterday was by far the worst for the offense.  That likely means it was the worst for the O-Line too.  Our O-Line is not as good as our D-Line and both lines are going to have some variance.   Yesterday sounds like the day that the D-Line was on its game and the O-Line wasn't.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 SIP that run blocking win rate score for him would be a good example of how decontextualized grading can skew perception of the skill set and play of a player.  It would be logical to extrapolate from that stat that run blocking is a major strength for Lucas, but we know it's not and that he was so infrequently used as the PoA blocker, and that his role in our run game was very limited. 

 

 

Reputation wise, that's true.  But is it conceivable that he had a better year on that front last season?   With his size, you'd think more of a power-gap run blocker than zone.  I get your point about Wylie being smaller-quicker.  But the dude has decent speed, 5.14, but nothing earth shattering.  I saw one site, NFLdraftscout wthat has Lucas best 40 time at 5.19, though not sure how authentic that is, couldn't find anything else.  And riding on reputation, Wylie isn't billed as some beast with the run game.    

 

As for Lucas being used infrequently as a POA blocker.  I don't know that let alone it fits an we all know kind of point.  I'd have to watch play after play and focus on him. I just looked up Sharp's season preview where he charted each play. 

 

According to those stats.

 

A.  Their highest rate of running efficieny for this team was against the right end and by a good margin over the left end.   Granted combo blocks are part of that.  But heck that's part of the game.

 

B.  They ran more from the right side, which is common for most teams.  More rushes directed volume wise from RT than any other spot on the O line but one.

 

Having said that, I do agree with the premise that Lucas is more of a pass protector than run blocker.  My point succinctly, is I think I trust Lucas more as a pass blocker as opposed to Wylie.  And while I got not doubt Wylie likely moves better laterally than Lucas which will help on screens, 2nd level runs, etc -- I don't see Wylie as some mega talent on that front.  So is it worth the trade off with pass protect for more speed for the run game? 

 

I don't know.  I get the argument on the other side of this.  And I admit I am somewhat driven by recency bias.  Lucas to my eyes looked good yesterday in pass protect.  Wylie not so much.  Granted its different going against 2nd teamers.  Yet Logan Paulsen who watched every practice thus far has commented that Wylie has struggled against some of the backup pass rushers when Chase-Sweat skipped minicamp, etc.

 

In short, I don't want jailbreaks coming from opposing D lines at Howell.  I value that more more lateral movement in the run game -- and maybe Lucas doesn't suck at the run game.  But I admit I'd have to sit and watch him on that front which I haven't bothered to do.  Though this conversation makes it very tempting for me to watch Lucas the way we'd normally do with any college prospect for the draft thread. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

Our OL is scary and if you don’t see that it is you are a top % optimistic kind of human on the planet and also kind of nuts. That’s cool. I rock with it. 
 

Wylie is right now the best option at RT precisely as to why McQueen stated above: the movement required for an OT in the KC style screen game is far above Lucas’ abilities. 
 

I like Lucas as a swing guy. And Wylie should really be the same role… but schematically Wylie is a better fit.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

They're probably prepping him at tackle too because they want him to be ready to get on the field no matter where because we don't know who is going to go down with injury.  If heaven forbid Wylie gets carted off the field tomorrow, we're going to need Paul to play tackle.

 

 

Yeah that's exactly why from what was said.  Just like I mentioned with Charles.  They like him supposedly better at guard but want him ready too at tackle because of the need to shift things around in case of injuries.

 

It's actually the component i do like about the Wylie signing.  Position flex.  Many say he's a better guard.  He played more of his career at guard than tackle.

 

If I don't study a player, I go more with word of mouth and pedigree and admit that can be misleading at times.  But until (if i ever do) I sit down and study Wylie, profile wise, and reputation wise, he feels to me a better guard than RT.   @Koolblue13 hit the point hard early on, I initially pushed back some, but he wore me down on it. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Jumbo]

Yup, I haven't had any real positive take on the o line despite the hopeful spinning on the table to date. It's a very shaky low grade group. As ever, I'm "hoping for the best" while my observational/analytical take remains "this will be painful." 

 

Against my hopes and wishes I think the most likely scenario is we finish last in the division  or maybe beat out the giants because of our defense and will suffer mightily because of the o line on offense and Sam won't get much of a solid opportunity to show his best. I expect his play will suffer notably without very competent line play around him.

 

If it goes this way, Ron will be gone next season and sam may be given another chance next year to start but more likely as a backup (,and I like Sam) and it will still be a season for hope and celebration that dan is gone and we will be on our way to being relevant again. It just is likely to take awhile. Of course I insert the obligatory and sincere "hoping for the best" regardless of my take at this time.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

If like Lucas as a swing guy. And Wylie should really be the same role… but schematically Wylie is a better fit.

 

In theory, I'd agree too.  But I am off that point if Wylie is a sieve in pass protect.  Too many good pass rushers, coming from the right side.  And I want Howell to have a chance.  From what I saw yesterday, he'd have no chance if that unfolds in a game and will get beaten up for his performance as part of it.  Just like what happened yesterday.

 

Stats wise, Wylie I believe was top 3 in the league in most sacks given up last year and top 3 in most pressures.  He played most of his career at guard not tackle.  Then you add to his camp performances so far being at best "meh"

 

Now we can explain this away or that away.  Camp doesn't matter.  No pads.  Yeah he gave up a lack of sacks last year but Mahomes holds on to the ball too long so it comes with the turf. etc.

 

For me, I'll hold out and let it play out.  It's still early.  But Wylie is on notice with me.  There is a breaking point with me and especially after practice yesterday, its far from a no brainer for me that Wylie is the better bet at RT. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

Yup, I've haven't had any real positive take on the o line despite the hopeful spinning on the table to date. It's a very shaky low grade group. As ever, I'm "hoping for the best" while my observational/analytical take remains "this will be painful." 

 

Against my hopes and wishes I think the most likely scenario is we finish last in the division  or maybe beat out the giants because of our defense and will suffer mightily because of the o line on offense and Sam won't get much of a solid opportunity to show his best. I expect his play will suffer notably without very competent line play around him.

 

If it goes this way, Ron will be gone next season and sam may be given another chance next year to start but more likely as a backup (,and I like Sam) and it will still be a season for hope and celebration that dan is gone and we will be on our way to being relevant again. It just is likely to take awhile. Of course I insert the obligatory and sincere "hoping for the best" regardless of my take at this time.

 

 

I think if Howell plays well he'll likely be the incumbent, because if we win 5-7 games we're more in high end OT draft range than high end QB draft range (we may take a shot at a guy later, though). 

 

The problem we're going to really find is if the season totally bombs were in a really, really, really bad spot. Need OL and QB at that point. 

 

Given Harris' 76ers tenure, I would assume that is when we start to sell off some pieces to acquire draft capital and try to plug both holes asap. But that is a semi dangerous proposition as well, but at least its a positive risk. 

 

I can see a world where the OL succeeds. Not to be a "play both sides" guy here, but there is a scenario where it pans out. Charles improves or Paul is the real deal. Stromberg develops quickly. Daniels develops quickly. Wylie exceeds expectations and Cosmi improves AND remains healthy.

 

That's all possible. But there are a **** load of modifier statements there.

 

Like you, I think the likelihood is that this offensive line faces some struggles.

 

The key is really not even Howell. It's Bienemy. If he can scheme ways to get the ball out quick, make play action a staple and a real threat and utilize the run and screen games, that can really, really help this offensive line out. Getting defenses playing on their heels is a major help to any offense, and one with OL issues can have a lot of those problems alleviated by tremendous scheme and execution.

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

In theory, I'd agree too.  But I am off that point if Wylie is a sieve in pass protect.  Too many good pass rushers, coming from the right side.

 

If Howell deals with a pass rush like 

 

Stats wise, Wylie I believe was top 3 in the league in most sacks given up last year and top 3 in most pressures.  He played most of his career at guard not tackle.  Then you add to his camp performances so far being at best "meh"

 

Now we can explain this away or that away.  Camp doesn't matter.  No pads.  Yeah he gave up a lack of sacks last year but Mahomes holds on to the ball too long so it comes with the turf. etc.

 

For me, I'll hold out and let it play out.  It's still early.  But Wylie is on notice with me.  To me especially after practice yesterday, its far from a no brainer for me that Wylie is the better bet at RT. 

Yeah, I don't think he's a sieve or will be a sieve. I think a lot of that is hyperbole. 

 

I think he and Lucas are carbon copies almost. Lucas is a bit more "heavy handed", Wylie is a bit more agile but they are similar all things considered. The athleticism changes it. 

 

They look the same in pass pro to me. Both not quite liabilities but not quite good enough to be considered as a quality pass protector. 

 

Wylie's movement gives me a bit of hope.

 

But again, to my point above: The key is Bienemy. 

 

And yes, Mahomes breaks the pocket entirely too often... and an OL that has to deal with that is going to have a bad time against NFL athletic ends. 

 

The only reason Kansas City and their fans haven't totally turned their backs on him is that he happens to be a young candidate on the GOAT list. (Obviously they wouldn't turn on him. Point here is that when you're as good as Mahomes, breaking the pocket and causing extra pressures/sacks sometimes but mostly leading to big plays and points is beyond acceptable..)

Edited July 30, 2023 by KDawg