2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[moondog]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I hate talking about players based on what other people say, I like to make my own mind. So I just watched Wylie, 2 games, did it like I would a draft prospect.    I am an amatuer at it so anyone of course feel free to ignore.   I don't think O lineman are that hard to do basic evaluations, with the emphasis on the word basic -- because its not hard to see if they win or lose on a play.   Also easy to see how physical and athletic a player is or not. 

 

 

So basically Cosmi is the guy we want to recover fumbles lol jk

 

I highly doubt we keep Armah so I’m actually interested to see if we use Rodriguez at the goalline or situationally as a fullback. Hell, I wouldn’t mind us using Paul in those situations given his athleticism. Unfortunately with Cosmi as a guard we can’t really use him as an eligible cuz that would be a tell but would be exciting. 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, moondog said:

So basically Cosmi is the guy we want to recover fumbles lol jk

 

I highly doubt we keep Armah so I’m actually interested to see if we use Rodriguez at the goalline or situationally as a fullback. Hell, I wouldn’t mind us using Paul in those situations given his athleticism. Unfortunately with Cosmi as a guard we can’t really use him as an eligible cuz that would be a tell but would be exciting. 

 

Maybe, Rodriguez in 2 back sets.

 

I just watched one day of practice so short sample size but Robinson looked quick and he among other RBs were catching a lot of balls and showed good hands.   I like his chances this year. 

 

Don't love the run blocking chops of this O line lineup.    Leno isn't known for it.  Gates not so much.  Wylie looked OK at it from my watch but wasn't blown away.  Cosmi is the guy on that front.  Maybe Paul but he's a wildcard.  What might help though is all those 12, 13 and even 4 TE personnel sets that Bieniemy seems to favor.  Those are a lot of big bodies to contend with especially in the red zone.

 

One thing i do think they almost for sure will improve on is red zone offense.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Tress Is The Way]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Maybe, Rodriguez in 2 back sets.

 

I just watched one day of practice so short sample size but Robinson looked quick and he among other RBs were catching a lot of balls and showed good hands.   I like his chances this year. 

 

Don't love the run blocking chops of this O line lineup.    Leno isn't known for it.  Gates not so much.  Wylie looked OK at it from my watch but wasn't blown away.  Cosmi is the guy on that front.  Maybe Paul but he's a wildcard.  What might help though is all those 12, 13 and even 4 TE personnel sets that Bieniemy seems to favor.  Those are a lot of big bodies to contend with especially in the red zone.

 

One thing i do think they almost for sure will improve on is red zone offense.

I kind of disagree. With B Rob and the line last year he still put up almost 800 yards and only played 12 games. I'd argue that the line has improved since last year (not by much but it has a little bit). I feel like with EB running the show on O, I think he'll be able to get them to produce.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Tress Is The Way said:

I kind of disagree. With B Rob and the line last year he still put up almost 800 yards and only played 12 games. I'd argue that the line has improved since last year (not by much but it has a little bit). I feel like with EB running the show on O, I think he'll be able to get them to produce.

 

Kind of disagree meaning you think the run blocking was good last year?

[skinny21]

So, kind of a dumb question (I don’t watch many Chiefs games), but why does Mahomes hold onto the ball?  I mean, I get the easy answer - because he can - but from my layman perspective, the most often reasons this happens with other qbs is due to good coverage, not trusting their read on the defense, not understanding the offense fully, running an offense with slower developing plays, not having pass catchers that can get open quickly, and slower processing speed.  Not really things I’ve heard associated with Mahomes…

 

 

[Tress Is The Way]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Kind of disagree meaning you think the run blocking was good last year?

Kind of disagree meaning that the run blocking wasn't terrible, as our RB still produced. Not great by any means, but not terrible.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Tress Is The Way said:

I kind of disagree. With B Rob and the line last year he still put up almost 800 yards and only played 12 games. I'd argue that the line has improved since last year (not by much but it has a little bit). I feel like with EB running the show on O, I think he'll be able to get them to produce.

 

They were bottom tier in every metric I've seen including the run blocking specifically rated.  Run game 4th to last in DVOA.  Warren Sharps' stats of I recall close to last.  PFF, etc. 

 

Or heck even running with conventional numbers, Robinson ranked 42 in YPA, Gibson ranked 49th.  Both with under 4 YPC.

 

As Warren Sharp pointed out in a posted that we talked about on this thread.  This team indeed ran a lot, so you are going to put up yards on volume alone but it was either the most inefficient run game in the NFL or close to being last, don't recall.

 

And look I like Brian Robinson and Gibson.  So I don't think they were the problems.  I agree with the anayltics that the run blcoking was the issue.  

[MartinC]

Wylie is an average athlete and maybe a little undersized (he’s 6’ 6” and just over 300 - I have a hard time calling someone like that ‘undersized’ - but here we are!) If he makes any mistake or the other guy does something he’s not ready for he doesn’t have ‘make up’ ability and sometimes if he lets the defender get into him he will just get over powered. 
 

He just can’t make any mistakes - and that’s not reality. So he’s going to have snaps where he just gets whipped.

[skinny21]

4 minutes ago, Tress Is The Way said:

Kind of disagree meaning that the run blocking wasn't terrible, as our RB still produced. Not great by any means, but not terrible.

My recollection is that our backs graded out well in terms of yards after contact and stuff %, but the ypc were low… suggesting they were doing the heavy lifting and the run blocking was pretty darn bad.  Of course, a chunk of the year was run heavy (predictable), Gibson isn’t really suited to running between the tackles, and Robinson was coming off the injury (and a rook), so maybe things were skewed a bit?

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They were bottom tier in every metric I've seen including the run blocking specifically rated.  Run game 4th to last in DVOA.  Warren Sharps' stats of I recall close to last.  PFF, etc. 

 

Or heck even running with conventional numbers, Robinson ranked 42 in YPA, Gibson ranked 49th.  Both with under 4 YPC.

 

As Warren Sharp pointed out in a posted that we talked about on this thread.  This team indeed ran a lot, so you are going to put up yards on volume alone but it was either the most inefficient run game in the NFL or close to being last, don't recall.

 

And look I like Brian Robinson and Gibson.  So I don't think they were the problems.  I agree with the anayltics that the run blcoking was the issue.  

I don’t have stats on this to hand but I also recall seeing somewhere that it wasn’t like we were running into heavy boxes either. Teams didn’t feel they had to commit extra defenders to stop our running game and they still held us.

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, MartinC said:

Wylie is an average athlete and maybe a little undersized (he’s 6’ 6” and just over 300 - I have a hard time calling someone like that ‘undersized’ - but here we are!) If he makes any mistake or the other guy does something he’s not ready for he doesn’t have ‘make up’ ability and sometimes if he lets the defender get into him he will just get over powered. 
 

He just can’t make any mistakes - and that’s not reality. So he’s going to have snaps where he just gets whipped.

 

My biggest takeaway watching those KC games is a point you've emphasized hard, and i have too but to a lesser degree.  That is, it really helps to have a stud bookend tackle.  You can get away with not having two of them but it helps a lot to have one.

 

You can see what KC did to help at times the right side.  But clearly you can't do it on both sides at the same.  Having someone like Trent who can handle one side without help is a major advantage. 

 

My issue among others with this O line is its not hard to scheme against as to the pass rush.  There isn't a dude who you have to avoid.  You can come at this O line from any direction.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

Wylie is an average athlete and maybe a little undersized (he’s 6’ 6” and just over 300 - I have a hard time calling someone like that ‘undersized’ - but here we are!) If he makes any mistake or the other guy does something he’s not ready for he doesn’t have ‘make up’ ability and sometimes if he lets the defender get into him he will just get over powered. 
 

He just can’t make any mistakes - and that’s not reality. So he’s going to have snaps where he just gets whipped.

He had a 7.3% pressure rate on pass plays during the regular season… that doesn’t sound great, lol.  OTOH, he was 9th on ESPNs Pass Block Win Rate (9th overall).

[RVAskins]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

So it's basically like past training camps that were open to the public.

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, MartinC said:

I don’t have stats on this to hand but I also recall seeing somewhere that it wasn’t like we were running into heavy boxes either. Teams didn’t feel they had to commit extra defenders to stop our running game and they still held us.

 

Yeah that's true.  If I recall that was a Sharp tweet. 

[MartinC]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

My biggest takeaway watching those KC games is a point you've emphasized hard, and i have too but to a lesser degree.  That is, it really helps to have a stud bookend tackle.  You can get away with not having two of them but it helps a lot to have one.

 

You can see what KC did to help at times the right side.  But clearly you can't do it on both sides at the same.  Having someone like Trent who can handle one side without help is a major advantage. 

 

My issue among others with this O line is its not hard to scheme against as to the pass rush.  There isn't a dude who have to avoid.  You can come at this O line from any direction.

For me this is the key issue with our line. You can’t have studs everywhere and it’s about the 5 playing as a unit - but if you have at least 1 stud it makes a everything easier.

[Conn]

11 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

So, kind of a dumb question (I don’t watch many Chiefs games), but why does Mahomes hold onto the ball?  I mean, I get the easy answer - because he can - but from my layman perspective, the most often reasons this happens with other qbs is due to good coverage, not trusting their read on the defense, not understanding the offense fully, running an offense with slower developing plays, not having pass catchers that can get open quickly, and slower processing speed.  Not really things I’ve heard associated with Mahomes…

 

 

 

Because he and Kelce have a mind meld  and as the play goes on longer and the coverage can’t hold up, Kelce ad-libs and finds the open hole for enormous plays. Not just Kelce, but mostly him. Putting pressure on the D to cover for that long opens things up even if Mahomes could have gone with an earlier read in the progression 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

He had a 7.3% pressure rate on pass plays during the regular season… that doesn’t sound great, lol.  OTOH, he was 9th on ESPNs Pass Block Win Rate (9th overall).

 

Yeah that's the stat I've seen used to buck Wylie up the 9th place, i used it myself when i was more optimistic on the signing.  That from what i recall they based on the seconds they can hold back the rush.

 

Actually watching him some I actually believe that stat.  Like I said when he wins, he wins well.  Very clean, they were non sloppy wins.  So i think that would add up in a stat like that.  My issue was when he loses, he really loses. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

He had a 7.3% pressure rate on pass plays during the regular season… that doesn’t sound great, lol.  OTOH, he was 9th on ESPNs Pass Block Win Rate (9th overall).

He’s clearly not great - but then he’s not terrible either. You are just going to get some ‘look out’ snaps every game. 

[UK Skins]

2 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

Because he and Kelce have a mind meld  and as the play goes on longer and the coverage can’t hold up, Kelce ad-libs and finds the open hole for enormous plays. Not just Kelce, but mostly him. Putting pressure on the D to cover for that long opens things up even if Mahomes could have gone with an earlier read in the progression 

That was literally what I was going to type! I enjoy watching Kansas games and betting on the individual yardage and receptions so I've seen that happen a lot

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

He’s clearly not great - but then he’s not terrible either. You are just going to get some ‘look out’ snaps every game. 

 

For me that's the perfect summary. 

[Warhead36]

Just heard an alarming stat on Junkies. We only had nine rushing TDs last year and three were from the QBs.

 

Shockingly we actually weren't worst in the league.

[Skinsinparadise]

Standig

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[MartinC]

Good to hear they are trying Paul at LG with the starters. I have hope for him. 
 

The again hope is not a strategy …