The (New) Offensive Line Thread

[Ball Security]

9 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Ron inherited an OL of Trent Williams, Brandon Scherff, and Morgan Moses. Two All Pros and one rock solid starter.

 

He let them all go for a grand total of one mid round pick which turned into Ben St. Juste.

 

What a joke. That alone should result in his firing. Complete dismantling of a top 10 OL into the league's worst.

 

 

"You've gotta prove it to me" Eff you Ron. Loser.

This is way off. We also got Hudson out of the deal! 😎

[kfrankie]

15 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Ron inherited an OL of Trent Williams, Brandon Scherff, and Morgan Moses. Two All Pros and one rock solid starter.

 

He let them all go for a grand total of one mid round pick which turned into Ben St. Juste.

 

What a joke. That alone should result in his firing. Complete dismantling of a top 10 OL into the league's worst.

 

 

"You've gotta prove it to me" Eff you Ron. Loser.

 

To be fair, Trent Williams hated the organization and was not going to come back. Schreff was top notch when healthy, but was 30 and had missed way too much time to be paid like an all-pro.  And Moses, maybe we should have found a way to keep him.  On the whole, the effort to replace those guys was simply insufficient (drafting 2 DBs in the first two rounds last April??), or missed the mark (Wylie, Leno, and the guys they did draft from 2020 to present).  There's not a single starter right now that is above average, and that's on Ron.

Edited November 27, 2023 by kfrankie

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, kfrankie said:

 

To be fair, Trent Williams hated the organization and was not going to come back. Schreff was top notch when healthy, but missed way too much time to be paid like an all-pro.  And Moses, maybe we should have found a way to keep him.  On the whole, the effort to replace those guys was simply insufficient (drafting 2 DBs in the first two rounds last April??), or missed the mark (Wylie, Leno, and the guys they did draft from 2020 to present).  There's not a single starter right now that is above average, and that's on Ron.

Still think we could have kept Trent. The death knell was Rivera telling him "you have to prove it to me." All he had to do was sit down and tell him "Listen, I know the organization effed you. I'm here to turn things around and I want you to help me do it. What's it gonna take for you to stay? You're too good and you're gonna be instrumental to turning things around here."

 

Just tell guys they'll be loved and appreciated. A guy like Trent Williams doesn't have to "prove it" to anybody.

 

But Ron is an awful communicator with a boomer mindset.

[kfrankie]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

Still think we could have kept Trent. The death knell was Rivera telling him "you have to prove it to me." All he had to do was sit down and tell him "Listen, I know the organization effed you. I'm here to turn things around and I want you to help me do it. What's it gonna take for you to stay? You're too good and you're gonna be instrumental to turning things around here."

 

Just tell guys they'll be loved and appreciated. A guy like Trent Williams doesn't have to "prove it" to anybody.

 

But Ron is an awful communicator with a boomer mindset.

 

That may be true, I've heard that he didn't want to come back under any scenario, and that Ron had some sort of initial conversation with him but wasn't willing to kiss his ass, beg him to return, give him the benefit of the doubt.  I suspect that Snyder had his fingers in that one. Apparently Dan was a big supporter to Trent, but then felt that Trent had more or less disparaged him by suggesting that the team had downplayed his condition, and that part of that was leverage for a re-negotiation. So Snyder flipped his view on that one, was was no longer a jock sniffer for once.

[Conn]

Thought you folks would find this stuff interesting. The whole thread is great:

 

 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

The OL is truly this FO magnum opus. Forget the defense and the drafting of DBs that can't see the field. 

 

Let Trent and Scherff walk. Let Moses walk.

 

Signed Wylie, Gates, Turner and Norwell.

 

Drafted Cosmi way before people had him slated to go. He's our best OL, but was drafted as a RT and didn't pan out there.

Drafted Braeden Daniels way ahead of expected, and he didn't do anything this year.

Drafted Chris Paul in R7 - whatever, but he was starting for us at LG this year as a 2nd year 7th rounder. Not a great strategy.

Drafted Stromberg in 3rd - TBD

 

That is an atrocious track record on the OL. 

[DWinzit]

2 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

The OL is truly this FO magnum opus. Forget the defense and the drafting of DBs that can't see the field. 

 

Let Trent and Scherff walk. Let Moses walk.

 

Signed Wylie, Gates, Turner and Norwell.

 

Drafted Cosmi way before people had him slated to go. He's our best OL, but was drafted as a RT and didn't pan out there.

Drafted Braeden Daniels way ahead of expected, and he didn't do anything this year.

Drafted Chris Paul in R7 - whatever, but he was starting for us at LG this year as a 2nd year 7th rounder. Not a great strategy.

Drafted Stromberg in 3rd - TBD

 

That is an atrocious track record on the OL. 

Absolutely! I do wish the OL was the only positions they missed on.

My only comments, they did sign Leno and Lucas (who should be out RT). Also, Cosmi was slated to go in the top of the 2nd right where we drafted him. He was a value pick and it was surprisingly at a need position. 

 

I'd live to bring in a good vet Center with real Center experience, not ala Gates

Then draft new bookend T's. I doubt that occurs but at least get one of the talented T's early on draft day one

[JamesMadisonSkins]

3 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Absolutely! I do wish the OL was the only positions they missed on.

My only comments, they did sign Leno and Lucas (who should be out RT). Also, Cosmi was slated to go in the top of the 2nd right where we drafted him. He was a value pick and it was surprisingly at a need position. 

 

I'd live to bring in a good vet Center with real Center experience, not ala Gates

Then draft new bookend T's. I doubt that occurs but at least get one of the talented T's early on draft day one

 

The only issue here is we can/should draft two OTs, I just wouldn't expect both to come in and start right away. I guess you never know, I just don't love the idea of two rookie bookend OTs starting in a must prove-it year for Howell. 

 

UNLESS we keep Leno one more year. Keep him at LT and have rookie 1st rounder start at RT and re-asses in 2025 when Leno's contract is over. Maybe Leno can flip to RT? Idk. I found an article from 2015 when he was with the Bears that said he played much better as a LT than a RT. So the question is, does Leno work as a stopgap at LT for one more year while we groom a pair of rookie OTs? $13m is a good cap savings, but it also might not be prudent for continuity. Maybe Leno plays much better with a proper LG next to him.

 

Sign a Center in FA. Draft a 1st round OT to play RT for a year. Kick Wylie to LG. OL would be Leno - Wylie - FA Center - Cosmi - Rookie 1st rounder. Then you'd have another rookie OT and Daniels as depth at OT. Stromberg Gates and Paul as backup IOL. This is probably the most clean/easiest way to upgrade the OL without a total overhaul, if that's the path the new FO chooses to take.

Edited November 30, 2023 by JamesMadisonSkins

[RWJ]

55 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

The OL is truly this FO magnum opus. Forget the defense and the drafting of DBs that can't see the field. 

 

Let Trent and Scherff walk. Let Moses walk.

 

Signed Wylie, Gates, Turner and Norwell.

 

Drafted Cosmi way before people had him slated to go. He's our best OL, but was drafted as a RT and didn't pan out there.

Drafted Braeden Daniels way ahead of expected, and he didn't do anything this year.

Drafted Chris Paul in R7 - whatever, but he was starting for us at LG this year as a 2nd year 7th rounder. Not a great strategy.

Drafted Stromberg in 3rd - TBD

 

That is an atrocious track record on the OL. 

This is why I was never in on RR and Co. and gave them that name.  We knew Mayhew and Hurney's track records as GM.  Notta.  In the end, RR made the decisions after they provided their input which is poor, IMO as their track records show.  RR didn't have a clue.  It is so important for this team to get a Bonafide GM that knows what he is doing and we know it will be an analytical one by Harris hiring Shen.

[method man]

4 minutes ago, RWJ said:

This is why I was never in on RR and Co. and gave them that name.  We knew Mayhew and Hurney's track records as GM.  Notta.  In the end, RR made the decisions after they provided their input which is poor, IMO as their track records show.  RR didn't have a clue.  It is so important for this team to get a Bonafide GM that knows what he is doing and we know it will be an analytical one by Harris hiring Shen.

I wonder who should get credit for the 2020 offseason because that one was awesome overall. 2nd best FA haul in the Snyder era outside of the one on the Gibbs era where we netted Springs, Cornelius Griffin, Joe Salave’a, Marcus Washington etc. At this point, Kyle Smith gets the credit from me

[RWJ]

15 minutes ago, method man said:

I wonder who should get credit for the 2020 offseason because that one was awesome overall. 2nd best FA haul in the Snyder era outside of the one on the Gibbs era where we netted Springs, Cornelius Griffin, Joe Salave’a, Marcus Washington etc. At this point, Kyle Smith gets the credit from me

We netted those playes when Gibbs was here at HC/GM. 

[Conn]

12 minutes ago, RWJ said:

We netted those playes when Gibbs was here at HC/GM. 

Yes, he’s saying Kyle Smith’s FA haul is second to that Gibbs II class 

[DWinzit]

4 hours ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

The only issue here is we can/should draft two OTs, I just wouldn't expect both to come in and start right away. I guess you never know, I just don't love the idea of two rookie bookend OTs starting in a must prove-it year for Howell. 

 

UNLESS we keep Leno one more year. Keep him at LT and have rookie 1st rounder start at RT and re-asses in 2025 when Leno's contract is over. Maybe Leno can flip to RT? Idk. I found an article from 2015 when he was with the Bears that said he played much better as a LT than a RT. So the question is, does Leno work as a stopgap at LT for one more year while we groom a pair of rookie OTs? $13m is a good cap savings, but it also might not be prudent for continuity. Maybe Leno plays much better with a proper LG next to him.

 

Sign a Center in FA. Draft a 1st round OT to play RT for a year. Kick Wylie to LG. OL would be Leno - Wylie - FA Center - Cosmi - Rookie 1st rounder. Then you'd have another rookie OT and Daniels as depth at OT. Stromberg Gates and Paul as backup IOL. This is probably the most clean/easiest way to upgrade the OL without a total overhaul, if that's the path the new FO chooses to take.

Yeah it is hard to count on any rookies to be capable of starting right away. I would expect if we took two T's early, one would be able to start. It looks like they are probably forced to keep Wylie, I'd tell him he is battling it out at LG with all the OL youngsters that survive the off season...Paul, Charles, Daniels, Strom...insert other names. Tell him he will be a backup T as well. You could keep Leno who from what Id read and heard last year, could transition better to LG than RT if needed. I am keeping Cosmi at RG because he has thrived there but I am a believer that he can move back to RT. 

I really do hope they can find a solid experienced C as @Going Commandofor one has suggested be the best move for a young line. We already know Gates was a fail, Larsen is just ok and we can have Strom as a backup. 

[Warhead36]

I'm okay with starting two rookie Ts. Trial by fire baby. With a good scheme and Howell having a year under his belt we'd be okay.

 

I want two of my first three picks(assuming no trades)to be going towards T.

[UK Skins]

I don't follow the Chiefs (other than betting on Kelce's yards and TDs) so where is the idea coming from that Wylie is a great LG? He was a terrible RT if I recall. I keep reading we should move him to LG and the line will miraculously become good. Although some of that may just be not having him at RT I guess.

[FootballZombie]

1 hour ago, UK Skins said:

I don't follow the Chiefs (other than betting on Kelce's yards and TDs) so where is the idea coming from that Wylie is a great LG? He was a terrible RT if I recall. I keep reading we should move him to LG and the line will miraculously become good. Although some of that may just be not having him at RT I guess.

 

I don't think anybody thinks he will be a great LG, but if I remember correctly Whyle was an OK G for the Chiefs.

He was only moved to T b/c of circumstance, and for some reason we chose to bring him in for the T role here... and keep him there too...

 

I would not expect While to be some revelation at G, but I think it is likely he is a better player there than at T. 

[skinny21]

Wylie at LG is probably a worst case scenario for me… or worst realistic scenario anyway (him starting at right tackle again would certainly be worse, lol).  Not because I think he’d be an awful guard, but we need better than “not bad” or “decent”.  I think the baseline goal for the offseason, in terms of the oline, should involve…

 

1) Landing a good/promising RT (probably with our 1st pick, maaaybe in the 2nd or trading back into the 1st). We need to upgrade from Wylie pronto, and even if we can’t swing it immediately, need an upgrade to Leno at some point soon.  Yes, we could find an upgrade to Wylie via FA, but options are limited, it’s a low bar, and we’re probably not getting a long term solution going that route, let alone someone that could potentially move to the left next year.

2)  Add 2 high end interior lineman - a LG and center (probably 1 in FA and one in rd 2 or 3).  Yes, we want to upgrade from Leno, but shoring up the interior comes first IMO, and not with simply decent or competent players, we need good players there.  We need to give Howell a much cleaner pocket much more consistently, and interior pressure means a rushed throw, problems with stepping into a throw, and often makes scrambling that much harder.  We could just go for one upgrade on the interior as it’s possible Stromberg could excel at center (or LG), but then our depth is basically nonexistent… Paul and maybe a cheap FA or a mid to late round draftee.  Not ideal.

[method man]

44 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Wylie at LG is probably a worst case scenario for me… or worst realistic scenario anyway (him starting at right tackle again would certainly be worse, lol).  Not because I think he’d be an awful guard, but we need better than “not bad” or “decent”.  I think the baseline goal for the offseason, in terms of the oline, should involve…

 

1) Landing a good/promising RT (probably with our 1st pick, maaaybe in the 2nd or trading back into the 1st). We need to upgrade from Wylie pronto, and even if we can’t swing it immediately, need an upgrade to Leno at some point soon.  Yes, we could find an upgrade to Wylie via FA, but options are limited, it’s a low bar, and we’re probably not getting a long term solution going that route, let alone someone that could potentially move to the left next year.

2)  Add 2 high end interior lineman - a LG and center (probably 1 in FA and one in rd 2 or 3).  Yes, we want to upgrade from Leno, but shoring up the interior comes first IMO, and not with simply decent or competent players, we need good players there.  We need to give Howell a much cleaner pocket much more consistently, and interior pressure means a rushed throw, problems with stepping into a throw, and often makes scrambling that much harder.  We could just go for one upgrade on the interior as it’s possible Stromberg could excel at center (or LG), but then our depth is basically nonexistent… Paul and maybe a cheap FA or a mid to late round draftee.  Not ideal.

You are likely not building a line of 5 OL studs overnight. It takes time to build it. $90M in cap is not as much as it sounds and rookie guards rarely hit the ground running - look at this year’s class. All of them have struggled. 
 

Wylie costs you net $2M next season if you take the difference of his cap hit and dead cap. That is very good value for a legitimate starter at guard. I still think you draft a guy Day 2 or early Day 3 and groom him because I see Wylie as a 1 year solution who you then cut in 2025. Best case scenario is that rookie kills it and beats Wylie out for a starting spot and Wylie is your utility guy off the bench

 

IMO a good way to crystallize this is the delta in cap between cutting Wylie and signing a brand new FA guard may be the cost of a quality starting linebacker. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by method man

[Koolblue13]

On 11/27/2023 at 12:54 PM, Warhead36 said:

Ron inherited an OL of Trent Williams, Brandon Scherff, and Morgan Moses. Two All Pros and one rock solid starter.

 

He let them all go for a grand total of one mid round pick which turned into Ben St. Juste.

 

What a joke. That alone should result in his firing. Complete dismantling of a top 10 OL into the league's worst.

 

 

"You've gotta prove it to me" Eff you Ron. Loser.

And a top 5 Center in Roullier who's career was sidelined because of Rons drug dealing training staff.

[dyst]

Maybe losing Callahan hurt too.

[Warhead36]

43 minutes ago, method man said:

You are likely not building a line of 5 OL studs overnight. It takes time to build it. $90M in cap is not as much as it sounds and rookie guards rarely hit the ground running - look at this year’s class. All of them have struggled.

I actually think we could overhaul the OL with 4 new high quality starters right away.

 

Sign 2 in FA. Connor Williams at C and one of the Gs(there are quite a few).

 

Draft 2. We'll be able to get either Fashanu, Fuaga, or Alt at 5 and there are some real good RT prospects in round 2.

 

Can roll with Cosmi again as the starting RG for 2024.

 

That OL would be young with lots of upside while still having some proven high quality players.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, method man said:

You are likely not building a line of 5 OL studs overnight. It takes time to build it. $90M in cap is not as much as it sounds and rookie guards rarely hit the ground running - look at this year’s class. All of them have struggled. 
 

Wylie costs you net $2M next season if you take the difference of his cap hit and dead cap. That is very good value for a legitimate starter at guard. I still think you draft a guy Day 2 or early Day 3 and groom him because I see Wylie as a 1 year solution who you then cut in 2025. Best case scenario is that rookie kills it and beats Wylie out for a starting spot and Wylie is your utility guy off the bench

 

IMO a good way to crystallize this is the delta in cap between cutting Wylie and signing a brand new FA guard may be the cost of a quality starting linebacker. 

You could well be right.  

Personally, I’m not eschewing linebacker (I do get your point though)… as I’d be prioritizing putting big money on a guard or center, an ILB, and a DE.  Obviously that winds up being a significant chunk of our cap, but I think we’d still have a decent amount of cap space.  Perhaps I’m being naive on costs though (I’m earmarking roughly 15, 15 and 25 respectively, plus or minus a few mil each).

 

The rest then goes toward normal offseason stuff - signing rooks, an in-season buffer, and decent players at a variety of positions - a Toohill/JSW type DE, a Darby type corner, a Pringle/Crowder, etc… guys that provide depth and competition for the youngsters (our rooks, Henry/Jones, etc.).  Then the draft brings an OT, some other offensive pieces, and a couple/few defenders (skewing offense).

 

End result - 2, maybe 3 new added starters on the OL, our DE and LB units get a big lift, and we add some offensive weapons in the draft.  Question marks still at S and corner - you’re hoping new guys (rooks and cheaper FAs) or our current youngsters rise to challenge - and Leno is still starting at LT.  Leno’s probably our best or 2nd best lineman right now, the hope would be that he’s closer to the weak link when all is said and done.

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I actually think we could overhaul the OL with 4 new high quality starters right away.

 

Sign 2 in FA. Connor Williams at C and one of the Gs(there are quite a few).

 

Draft 2. We'll be able to get either Fashanu, Fuaga, or Alt at 5 and there are some real good RT prospects in round 2.

 

Can roll with Cosmi again as the starting RG for 2024.

 

That OL would be young with lots of upside while still having some proven high quality players.

Definitely doable, though I doubt it plays out that way.  My bet is we wind up with between 1-3 new additions starting, depending on competition at LG/C (perhaps Wylie/Stromberg nail down one or 2 spots and the only new addition to start is a rookie RT).  Gonna be interesting to see it play out. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by skinny21

[bowhunter]

41 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

You could well be right.  

Personally, I’m not eschewing linebacker (I do get your point though)… as I’d be prioritizing putting big money on a guard or center, an ILB, and a DE.  Obviously that winds up being a significant chunk of our cap, but I think we’d still have a decent amount of cap space.  Perhaps I’m being naive on costs though (I’m earmarking roughly 15, 15 and 25 respectively, plus or minus a few mil each).

 

The rest then goes toward normal offseason stuff - signing rooks, an in-season buffer, and decent players at a variety of positions - a Toohill/JSW type DE, a Darby type corner, a Pringle/Crowder, etc… guys that provide depth and competition for the youngsters (our rooks, Henry/Jones, etc.).  Then the draft brings an OT, some other offensive pieces, and a couple/few defenders (skewing offense).

 

End result - 2, maybe 3 new added starters on the OL, our DE and LB units get a big lift, and we add some offensive weapons in the draft.  Question marks still at S and corner - you’re hoping new guys (rooks and cheaper FAs) or our current youngsters rise to challenge - and Leno is still starting at LT.  Leno’s probably our best or 2nd best lineman right now, the hope would be that he’s closer to the weak link when all is said and done.

Definitely doable, though I doubt it plays out that way.  My bet is we wind up with between 1-3 new additions starting, depending on competition at LG/C (perhaps Wylie/Stromberg nail down one or 2 spots and the only new addition to start is a rookie RT).  Gonna be interesting to see it play out. 

If we (hopefully) end up with 2 starting OTs in the draft, I'd still want to keep Leno around. IMO he has been a solid contributor, should he be envisioned as an upgrade on the interior?

[skinny21]

5 hours ago, bowhunter said:

If we (hopefully) end up with 2 starting OTs in the draft, I'd still want to keep Leno around. IMO he has been a solid contributor, should he be envisioned as an upgrade on the interior?

IMO, if we keep Leno and have a competition, it’ll depend on which tackles we draft.  Do we have the 1st rounder compete with Leno on the left, or do they take the RT spot and we have the later pick (whenever that is) compete with Leno.  I think it’s probably a mistake to move on from him as we did with Moses.  Of course he’ll also cost more, so tricky decision.  As with Moses, I don’t mind paying the extra amount because it means more/better competition, 2) high end insurance in case one gets hurt, and 3) it’s likely just a one year thing (and we could always trade him).  With all that said, returning Lucas instead is a viable option. 

 

Can he be an upgrade at LG?  Probably, our play there has been quite bad.  Would I count on him to do well there?  I wouldn’t.  Not least because I want serious quality there… not just hope.

[Skinsinparadise]

If there were only good FA guards in the last FA crop