Attack on the FBI building in Cincinnati (Suspect dead. Was at Capitol on Jan 6)

[tshile]

I think you can have an extremely small portion of people who think they’re in a civil war - and do things like this because of it - but the vast majority don’t feel that way. 
 

I’d like to think I’m vigilant of being naive or ignorant about it - so I’d like to think I’m not blind to it

 

but I don’t think the vast majority have what it takes to do a real civil war, and I don’t even think they want that nor do they think it would be good. 
 

What I don’t know his how that 30-40% will act if they actually try to put Trump in prison. If you truly believe that this is all the result or weaponizing government agencies against you (the collective you that is republicans) then who knows what you’re willing to do. 
 

the rhetoric is a bit alarming. It’s not unreasonable to think that it could create something that becomes out of control and its own monster of sorts. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by tshile

[Captain Wiggles]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

but I don’t think the vast majority have what it takes to do a real civil war, and I don’t even think they want that nor do they think it would be good. 

 

These fat old ****s are the candiest of candyasses. Two years ago they were crying about not being able to breathe while wearing a cotton mask. The FBI, US military, and now IRS will be a far bigger challenge. 😆

 

[Bang]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

I think you can have an extremely small portion of people who think they’re in a civil war - and do things like this because of it - but the vast majority don’t feel that way. 
 

I’d like to think I’m vigilant of being naive or ignorant about it - so I’d like to think I’m not blind to it

 

but I don’t think the vast majority have what it takes to do a real civil war, and I don’t even think they want that nor do they think it would be good. 
 

What I don’t know his how that 30-40% will act if they actually try to put Trump in prison. If you truly believe that this is all the result or weaponizing government agencies against you (the collective you that is republicans) then who knows what you’re willing to do. 
 

the rhetoric is a bit alarming. It’s not unreasonable to think that it could create something that becomes out of control and it’s own monster of sorts. 

I think you're right. Most will watch. What else is there to do? I mean, I read what i write, but that doesn't mean I think anyone is justified to go kill his MAGA neighbor.

In a nation of this size the incidents themselves can't help but be seen as isolated, even though there have been a lot of them, most of it hasn't hit most of us personally. 

In a modern civil war, we're basically hiding in the herd somewhat secure that wherever it happens, it won't be where you are. And for the most part, we'll be right.

But because of how our nation is governed, any attack will be a police matter, and not gun battles between citizen militias.

 

I think if they jail him, it will be much like Hitler's jailing. He will probably get a relatively short sentence, and his base will use it to rally and gain strength. I've drawn a lot of correlation to those times, and while a large scale revolt by the Nazi party did take place in Germany, by and large there was no 'civil war' type violence. Brawls and violence at political rallies was about as far as it went until they really got hold of the power. The people who supported them were the same that support this.. chicken****s proud of bullies tormenting the people they hate. (They did burn the Reichstag, but they did it on purpose to blame their opponents.)

I can definitely see some sort of unrest at political events as November and especially the presidential election draws up. (Depending on what happens to Trump.) I could see violence happening.

We're in a weird spot right now,, it's getting ready to storm like mad, but we're not sure what we can do about it except hope it doesn't.

 

~Bang

Edited August 14, 2022 by Bang

[TheGreatBuzz]

26 minutes ago, Bang said:

We're in a weird spot right now,, it's getting ready to storm like mad, but we're not sure what we can do about it except hope it doesn't.

The part that is of most interest to me is when does the Left push back, violently possibly. 

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

The part that is of most interest to me is when does the Left push back, violently possibly. 

 

Opinion is it really depends on how long it takes for the bill to be passed for agencies like DHS to get the resources and law changes they need to treat this threat with the level of resources and law changes it deserves. 

 

Left have the Presidency, who is in charge of the military that's highest ranking members seem to be verbally respecting that.

 

Also not sure what violence to expect for the left given how many of them are anti-gun, have to keep in mind the extreme left isn't anymore friendly to the government then the extreme right is, so responses from the left might not come from where we expect nor for reasons we expect.

[88Comrade2000]

If those magas wants civil war, bring it on. Let's see how those maga bums with their AK47s, AR15s, etc... fair against the US military.  They want to die, would have no problem seeing our military wipe them out.

 

That's why there will never be a true civil war unless maga has control of parts of the military. It's true alot of the bases are in maga eras but for them to fight the US; they would have to control of the military and weapons in their areas. While I have no doubt some military members would join the maga army; I can't see them getting to much.

[Captain Wiggles]

20 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

While I have no doubt some military members would join the maga army; I can't see them getting to much.

 

Micheal Flynns brother is also a general and bigly MAGA from my understanding. He's the Commander of the US Army in da Pacific. 😬

 

When the South seceded a lot of west point grads went with. Hell even after the civil war some of those same generals served in the Spanish American war like three decades later. 🤓

[PleaseBlitz]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/08/14/capitol-barricade-rammed-shots-fired/
 

Quote

A man drove his vehicle into a barricade near the U.S. Capitol early Sunday and fired shots into the air before taking his own life, Capitol Police said.

No one else was injured, and it appears no officers discharged their weapons during the incident, which occurred about 4 a.m.

 

Police said the man, identified as 29-year old Richard A. York III, of Delaware, did not appear to be targeting members of Congress, who are on recess.

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

On 8/12/2022 at 9:50 AM, Bang said:

I think folks are looking for ways to not start seeing it. "official" civil war is no longer applicable in today's world. 

Not sure what it'll take.
A coordinated attack on the Capitol by the same group for the same reasoning behind the lone wolf attacks, pushed by the same people, by the same leadership and propaganda groups?

 

Or another one?

Like I said, you don't have to think you're in a fight to find yourself in a fight. You don't have to call it a war, but if your enemy does that is what it is. The definition given above of civil war is woefully out of date and way too broadly sweeping to fit most of them. That is how it was done in the last century. Terrorism is now warfare. Isolated yet totally connected. Designed to make the population capitulate out of fear of when and where the next will happen.

What else is that called? War Lite?

 

~Bang

 

But, a handful of people attacking an establishment isn't a war. A nut shooting at a government building isn't a war. You can't have a war if a particular side (if there even is one) can't win or lose. That's the primary reason I can't get behind your definition. If there was one high-profile event like this per day and you could tie it back to an ideology (similar to ISIS's jihad or the IRA), that would be kind of close. But even then, unless they were truly representing an opposition that was poised to overthrow and/or take over for the "defeated opponent" they are attacking, how is it a war? It's chaos and/or terrorism, but not war. 

 

[Larry]

34 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/08/14/capitol-barricade-rammed-shots-fired/
 

 

Can't even do suicide by cop right. 
 

And Congress is on recess, and it's a Sunday. Couldn't handle DC traffic?  
 

Still. Guess it's better than a nail gun. 
 

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

If those magas wants civil war, bring it on. Let's see how those maga bums with their AK47s, AR15s, etc... fair against the US military.  They want to die, would have no problem seeing our military wipe them out.

 

That's why there will never be a true civil war unless maga has control of parts of the military. It's true alot of the bases are in maga eras but for them to fight the US; they would have to control of the military and weapons in their areas. While I have no doubt some military members would join the maga army; I can't see them getting to much.

 

The last few years, I saw a scary amount of MAGA in the service.  And at scary ranks too.

 

25 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

But, a handful of people attacking an establishment isn't a war. A nut shooting at a government building isn't a war. You can't have a war if a particular side (if there even is one) can't win or lose. That's the primary reason I can't get behind your definition. If there was one high-profile event like this per day and you could tie it back to an ideology (similar to ISIS's jihad or the IRA), that would be kind of close. But even then, unless they were truly representing an opposition that was poised to overthrow and/or take over for the "defeated opponent" they are attacking, how is it a war? It's chaos and/or terrorism, but not war. 

 

 

You should listen to season 1 of this series.

 

https://open.spotify.com/show/3KNdniw6YDpgDuwrhcpSXw

 

 

[Larry]

24 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

But, a handful of people attacking an establishment isn't a war. A nut shooting at a government building isn't a war. You can't have a war if a particular side (if there even is one) can't win or lose.

Remembering a line from Spielberg's 1941. 
 

The setting is Los Angeles, after Pearl Harbor. And everybody is going ape **** about the imminent Japanese invasion. 
 

Dan Akroyd, tank commander, hears an aircraft overhead. (James Belushi, fighter pilot, is lost.)  And he orders his troops to shoot out all the street lights on Hollywood Boulevard, to black out the city from the Japanese Air Raid. 
 

A General, in charge of defending the US, (the movie's straight man), is in a movie theater, watching Dumbo. He hears machine gun fire, sighs, and leaves the movie. 
 

General: What's going on here?

 

Akroyd:  Air raid!  Japanese sneak attack!  Take cover!

 

General:  Isn't something missing, Captain?

 

Akroyd stops yelling. Looks puzzled. 
 

General:  Bombs, you idiot!  Bombs!  You can't have an air raid without bombs!  They came all the way from Japan, you think they would have brought a few bombs?  

[The Evil Genius]

 

[Captain Wiggles]

[Bang]

15 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

But, a handful of people attacking an establishment isn't a war. A nut shooting at a government building isn't a war. You can't have a war if a particular side (if there even is one) can't win or lose. That's the primary reason I can't get behind your definition. If there was one high-profile event like this per day and you could tie it back to an ideology (similar to ISIS's jihad or the IRA), that would be kind of close. But even then, unless they were truly representing an opposition that was poised to overthrow and/or take over for the "defeated opponent" they are attacking, how is it a war? It's chaos and/or terrorism, but not war. 

 

Terrorism is war. And i'll go a further step, in our particular budding war there is another element of government at risk by conventional means, as in our enemy is also fighting at the ballot box, and there is no level of decency to stop them from trying to steal it. 

The once-per-day, we're in the beginning..  plus, we are a much larger nation then Ireland or any middle eastern nation. Like I said in another post, the violence here happens often enough, but i isn't condensed like that.. we're so spread out it is easy for us as a people to view it all as isolated. 
In a place as small as those other places, the chances everyone is directly affected is exponentially higher. As a population, we're much more cushioned.

To use a correlation: People point out that the Nazis didn't take the German nation by force, they "won it" at the polls. (they manipulated it and stole it a variety of ways, but overall, they won their revolt for control of Germany by threat of the population to vote their way or suffer physically, and by utilizing the gains they made incrementally the same exact way we see our elected GOPers doing it now. And like our modern GOP, once Hitler gained control it was over, he never gave it back and abolished every way to take it from him. 
Trump WILL do that. 

In regards to the loons they are inspiring, they are going after their perceived political opponents. Their goal is not to intimidate, it's to kill. They are going to war.

Our nation is at stake. It is that stark. If they gain control again, we all know they will all but dissolve everything that makes us the nation we are. What is that if not war?

 

(Good debate, by the way!)

 

~Bang

Edited August 15, 2022 by Bang

[TD_washingtonredskins]

17 minutes ago, Bang said:

Terrorism is war. And i'll go a further step, in our particular budding war there is another element of government at risk by conventional means, as in our enemy is also fighting at the ballot box, and there is no level of decency to stop them from trying to steal it. 

The once-per-day, we're in the beginning..  plus, we are a much larger nation then Ireland or any middle eastern nation. Like I said in another post, the violence here happens often enough, but i isn't condensed like that.. we're so spread out it is easy for us as a people to view it all as isolated. 
In a place as small as those other places, the chances everyone is directly affected is exponentially higher. As a population, we're much more cushioned.

To use a correlation: People point out that the Nazis didn't take the German nation by force, they "won it" at the polls. (they manipulated it and stole it a variety of ways, but overall, they won their revolt for control of Germany by threat of the population to vote their way or suffer physically, and by utilizing the gains they made incrementally the same exact way we see our elected GOPers doing it now. And like our modern GOP, once Hitler gained control it was over, he never gave it back and abolished every way to take it from him. 
Trump WILL do that. 

In regards to the loons they are inspiring, they are going after their perceived political opponents. Their goal is not to intimidate, it's to kill. They are going to war.

Our nation is at stake. It is that stark. If they gain control again, we all know they will all but dissolve everything that makes us the nation we are. What is that if not war?

 

(Good debate, by the way!)

 

~Bang

 

Agree...very good debate!

 

It's just difficult for me to put a slow, political shift into the same bucket as a civil war. I understand your points and I can see why you are drawing parallels, but to me they are different categories. If a specific party is coming into power at the ballot box and adjusting our preference of how the country is governed through political means, that's not the same as grabbing a bunch of guns and bombs and taking something by force. It's just not. 

 

For one, unless you believe it's all fake votes and people aren't actually being elected fairly...the individuals are being put in power by a large percentage of the citizens of the country. Secondly, laws and legislation that most of us disagree with passes all the time...and we don't yell "civil war" - at least not seriously. 

 

What do you mean by "dissolve everything that makes us the nation we are" in your last sentence? What do you believe they will do to us? 

 

 

[Fan since a Fetus]

.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Fan since a Fetus

[LadySkinsFan]

Besides putting in restrictive voting laws, the next step is intimidation at the polls. And I mean violent intimidation. Brown shirt variety. Only these thugs will use guns and cars instead of bats. I fully expect to see some this year and more in 2024 if they lose the Congress this year. 

 

That's a civil war.

[Bang]

20 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Agree...very good debate!

 

It's just difficult for me to put a slow, political shift into the same bucket as a civil war. I understand your points and I can see why you are drawing parallels, but to me they are different categories. If a specific party is coming into power at the ballot box and adjusting our preference of how the country is governed through political means, that's not the same as grabbing a bunch of guns and bombs and taking something by force. It's just not. 

 

For one, unless you believe it's all fake votes and people aren't actually being elected fairly...the individuals are being put in power by a large percentage of the citizens of the country. Secondly, laws and legislation that most of us disagree with passes all the time...and we don't yell "civil war" - at least not seriously. 

 

What do you mean by "dissolve everything that makes us the nation we are" in your last sentence? What do you believe they will do to us? 

 

 

 

I can't disagree with your points, but to your question, Trump spoke about making himself president for life almost as soon as he got in (Xi in China did so, and Trump mused on the microphone that it seemed like a good idea, maybe one we should implement here.).

He did try to violently overthrow the gov't.

Get enough of the MAGAts in there, and i do think they will make him (and by proxy their faction) permanent. I think when it comes to how far they will take it to insure they never lose power again, everything is on the table.

 

~Bang

Edited August 15, 2022 by Bang

[TD_washingtonredskins]

41 minutes ago, Bang said:

 

I can't disagree with your points, but to your question, Trump spoke about making himself president for life almost as soon as he got in (Xi in China did so, and Trump mused on the microphone that it seemed like a good idea, maybe one we should implement here.).

He did try to violently overthrow the gov't.

Get enough of the MAGAts in there, and i do think they will make him (and by proxy their faction) permanent. I think when it comes to how far they will take it to insure they never lose power again, everything is on the table.

 

~Bang

 

I see...I don't know though. I just don't think he has the support people fear he does. I have talked to plenty of people who voted for him, hate Biden, etc. who really want him to go away. And that's not because they don't like him. They do. But they don't think he's the future of their party. They seem to rotate on who they like (it's been DeSantis, Haley, and others). 

 

What's my point? That doesn't sound like a group who can really install a faction that can never lose power again. It sounds like a group who wants their side to win and has beliefs (some of which we may not all like), but not a group attempting to put a dictator into place. At least not to me. Maybe the fringe, but not a side we should be seriously concerned with. 

 

 

[Fresh8686]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I see...I don't know though. I just don't think he has the support people fear he does. I have talked to plenty of people who voted for him, hate Biden, etc. who really want him to go away. And that's not because they don't like him. They do. But they don't think he's the future of their party. They seem to rotate on who they like (it's been DeSantis, Haley, and others). 

 

What's my point? That doesn't sound like a group who can really install a faction that can never lose power again. It sounds like a group who wants their side to win and has beliefs (some of which we may not all like), but not a group attempting to put a dictator into place. At least not to me. Maybe the fringe, but not a side we should be seriously concerned with. 

 

 

This is dangerously naive and IMO your evaluating the wrong people. There is no evidence of de-escalation of authoritarian tendencies. Over half of the primary winners have been pushing the big lie and so many states have passed laws that allow them to de certify their elections. They are putting in place the machinery for over turning democracy in 2024 and there are more fascists in republican office then there were before Jan 6th and less republicans who will choose democracy over power. 
 

People like this don’t just stop these actions when they get what they want. They keep going and taking until you do something about it. 

[Fan since a Fetus]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I see...I don't know though. I just don't think he has the support people fear he does. I have talked to plenty of people who voted for him, hate Biden, etc. who really want him to go away. And that's not because they don't like him. They do. But they don't think he's the future of their party. They seem to rotate on who they like (it's been DeSantis, Haley, and others). 

so far, the republicans have shown that they are all aboardtaking over this country. I think we can look at what happened on January 6th and see that we were only a couple of people away from losing our democracy. 
 

 it doesn’t take close to half this country, it just takes a few people put in the proper places to overturn results one time. That one time will be the end of democracy. 

 

 They had a trial run with Trump and now they know what they screwed up. They all support him. I think even Bannon has said their plans out loud about planting people in strategic locations to take over. 
 

we are way closer to the end of our democracy than not. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I must really have my head in the sand, in both directions.

 

When I read stuff here, you would think we are one election away from Trump being Supreme Chancellor. When I have conversations with my right-wing friends, they swear that everything happening currently in government is part of a global takeover with like 10 powerful families pulling the strings. 

 

I float through life 99.99% sure that 40 years from now (if I'm still alive) we'll have had 10 more elections and people will have ****ed and moaned about more or less the same type of **** like we always have...

[Fan since a Fetus]

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

I float through life 99.99% sure that 40 years from now (if I'm still alive) we'll have had 10 more elections and people will have ****ed and moaned about more or less the same type of **** like we always have...

I don’t have one ounce of religion in me, but I pray to god you are correct and we are wrong. 

[Heisenberg]

3 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I must really have my head in the sand, in both directions.

 

When I read stuff here, you would think we are one election away from Trump being Supreme Chancellor. When I have conversations with my right-wing friends, they swear that everything happening currently in government is part of a global takeover with like 10 powerful families pulling the strings. 

 

I float through life 99.99% sure that 40 years from now (if I'm still alive) we'll have had 10 more elections and people will have ****ed and moaned about more or less the same type of **** like we always have...

I probably would have agreed with this prior to Jan 6. Now they know what they can do and face no real consequences and I’m fearful of what they’ll do next. Hell, look at the tone change from Jan 7 until a week or so later. Most expected a blowback that never really came.