So David Ortiz Gets Voted Into The Hall Of Fame and Not Bonds Or Clemens?

[abdcskins]

I've never been a big stats guy. AJ Piersynski? How is he even close to being a hall of fame candidate? I know he had a long productive career, but not close to HOF status imo. Andruw Jones? Prince Fielder? Most of the other names on there I could see having a case.

[Fergasun]

It's really about his 500 HRs... Thome is probably the weakest.... and I think Big Papi stats are similar.  

 

I agree with the writers about keeping the major guys out of the hall. They cheated the game and clean players.

 

 

[Rocky21]

Good grief Ortiz is a known and obvious roider.

 I was at Camden Yards when he busted up the dug out phone with a bat in a road rage  and almost hit their second baseman with the bat.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Rocky21

[No Nonsense]

7 hours ago, Fergasun said:

It's really about his 500 HRs... Thome is probably the weakest.... and I think Big Papi stats are similar.  

 

I agree with the writers about keeping the major guys out of the hall. They cheated the game and clean players.

 

 

But it’s OK for Ortiz to get in, who actually failed a test? 

[PleaseBlitz]

9 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

Tbh, I have problems with DHs making the HOF.

 

Not to get off topic, but WTF?  Nobody talks about Babe Ruth's HOF credentials and is like "and his fielding was silky smooth."  I THINK Ted Williams was an outfielder, but if someone bet me a million dollars on it, I wouldn't take the bet. 

[Forehead]

1 minute ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Not to get off topic, but WTF?  Nobody talks about Babe Ruth's HOF credentials and is like "and his fielding was silky smooth."  I THINK Ted Williams was an outfielder, but if someone bet me a million dollars on it, I wouldn't take the bet. 

 

Objectively, I know you're right, but I kind of feel the same way as TEG.  It just seems wrong to me that you essentially only have to play 5-10 minutes of every game and get to rest and relax the rest of it.  And yes, I kind of look sideways at relievers/closers getting in too.  Felt the same was when Edgar Martinez got in, though at least he was a 3rd baseman before he suffered a bad injury.  Big Papi was essentially a DH because he was an immobile tub who couldn't play in the field.

 

Still his hitting speaks for itself, so I guess he earned it.  I'll have to go look at that ballot posted earlier to see where I would have put my votes.

[tshile]

11 hours ago, PeterMP said:

Ortiz tested positive early in his career on a "unofficial" test that baseball has said was flawed and might have been wrong because it wasn't specific enough for banned substances.  He played most of his career and put up the stats that made him a potential HOF during active testing and never tested possible.

to add:

bonds and Clemens were the faces of the steroid era. Along with soda and McGuire 

 

They abused it such that their performance put them way out in front of everyone else. The home run record chase was a crazy popular thing at the time. They soaked up the fame. 
 

that era made a mockery of professional baseball. 
 

the idea that the people that were the face of that mockery, that made it the most ridiculous, and that benefited hugely from it, are being blackballed from the sport’s hall of fame is unsurprising and completely warranted. 
 

if you want to say Selig shouldn’t be in there either because he led baseball through that era by initially turning a blind eye to it, fine. No argument from me.
 

but to  say if anyone from the era gets in, these guys must be allowed in, cause everyone cheated right? … sorry not accepting it. 
 

it sucks those guys probably would have gotten in without cheating. But they cheated. And they did so on such a grand scale that their records are laughed at now for how obviously fraudulent they are. 

 

I’m sure others cheated just as much. But these are the ones that got caught. That’s the way the world works. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

The baseball HOF is broken. 

 

It's a travesty that Rose, Clemens, and Bonds aren't in while plenty of others are. It seems like there are too many voters who came this far and felt like they couldn't reverse course so they had to stick to their guns. 

 

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens did MORE THAN ENOUGH before 2003 to be HOF locks, so why is this even up for debate? I hope somehow eventually this is corrected. A HOF without those two is laughable. 

[The Evil Genius]

33 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Not to get off topic, but WTF?  Nobody talks about Babe Ruth's HOF credentials and is like "and his fielding was silky smooth."  I THINK Ted Williams was an outfielder, but if someone bet me a million dollars on it, I wouldn't take the bet. 

 

As always it was my opinion but I do think feel specialists in baseball belong in the hall. DHs and RPs are specialists. That's why I have no problem with one of the greatest defensive outfielders (the greatest from an advanced metrics run saved view) in Andruw Jones never making it. 

 

8 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

The baseball HOF is broken. 

 

It's a travesty that Rose, Clemens, and Bonds aren't in while plenty of others are. It seems like there are too many voters who came this far and felt like they couldn't reverse course so they had to stick to their guns. 

 

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens did MORE THAN ENOUGH before 2003 to be HOF locks, so why is this even up for debate? I hope somehow eventually this is corrected. A HOF without those two is laughable. 

 

I read online that there had been 59 new voters added in the past 3 years. 51 (86%) of them voted Bonds in this year. I wonder if the HOF hadn't changed their rules (it used to be 15 years of eligibility but they were afraid Bonds would get in and they changed it to 10 in 2014) what would have happened. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[ixcuincle]

15 hours ago, clietas said:

Big Papi is a likeable fellow. The other two aren't. 🤷‍♂️

the hall is about bias and likability

 

ortiz was likable

 

the others weren't

 

that said, the veterans committee will likely vote in bonds, clemens, schilling et al anyway

[Fergasun]

@tshile

Is 100% correct.  Blackballing the BALCO users is what they deserve.  

 

Ortiz tested positive one time and then played during the PED testing regime.  

 

Ken Griffey Jr didn't ruin his legacy... we all know that Bonds was most likely the best hitter of the generation... but he tarnished himself with BALCO.

[PleaseBlitz]

12 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

The baseball HOF is broken. 

 

It's a travesty that Rose, Clemens, and Bonds aren't in while plenty of others are. It seems like there are too many voters who came this far and felt like they couldn't reverse course so they had to stick to their guns. 

 

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens did MORE THAN ENOUGH before 2003 to be HOF locks, so why is this even up for debate? I hope somehow eventually this is corrected. A HOF without those two is laughable. 

 

Because induction into the HOF is an honor, and they dishonored the sport.  

FWIW, we've had a thread on Pete Rose.

 

 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I don’t care. Put them in. 
 

the HOF isn’t supposed to be a purity test and I hate how the sportswriters treat it and their vote as some religious moral duty to uphold. The HOF is a recognition of MLB’s all time greats and it’s history. Sometimes that history is complicated or disappointing. 
 

they deserve to be in. Put a disclaimer under their exhibit or something else to notate their connection to steroids. Maybe also include how the entire league turned a blind eye to it to make money until public backlash made them address it 

[Hersh]

Guys like Bonds and Clemens deserve the same treatment as Lance Armstrong, Olympians busted for steroid use and everything other cheat in sports that is stripped of their tainted accomplishments. All of them knowingly cheated. 

 

What makes no sense is when people keep citing their numbers as if these athletes would've achieved these numbers without cheating. 

 

21 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens did MORE THAN ENOUGH before 2003 to be HOF locks, so why is this even up for debate? I hope somehow eventually this is corrected. A HOF without those two is laughable. 

 

Bonds and Clemens started steroids in 99 and 98 respectively. Clemens  won an additional 140 or so games after using steroids. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Baseball dishonored itself by not taking the **** seriously for 15+ years...and then begrudgingly taking it seriously after their feet were held to the fire.  

 

More hypocrisy:  You can have Bonds' stuff in the HoF like his bat, his jersey, etc, in an exhibit but you can't have his plaque in the room with the other plaques.  I mean, that's a line you can't cross.

 

 

Just now, Hersh said:

Guys like Bonds and Clemens deserve the same treatment as Lance Armstrong, Olympians busted for steroid use and everything other cheat in sports that is stripped of their tainted accomplishments. All of them knowingly cheated. 

 

What makes no sense is when people keep citing their numbers as if these athletes would've achieved these numbers without cheating. 

 

 

Bonds and Clemens started steroids in 99 and 98 respectively. Clemens  won an additional 140 or so games after using steroids. 

 

That's still 5 Cy Youngs and a 233-124 record with a 2.95 ERA before he started using.  That's a Hall of Fame career.  

 

Bonds was the only guy (still is) with 400 homers and 400 steals before he started juicing.  3 MVPs.  That's a Hall of Fame career, too.  

 

So I'll cite the numbers before they started cheating, they deserved it even if their careers ended in 98 and 99.

[The Evil Genius]

We need to acknowledge the HOF is already full of cheaters, racists, criminals, and overall despicable people. Adding Bonds, Clemens, ARod doesn't tarnish the HOF.

 

They did that already. 

[TheDoyler23]

MLB turned a blind eye to steroids because it wes making them money. They had the disastrous strike in 1994 and rebuilt the popularity of the sport on the backs of the players.

 

Put them all in and let smart baseball fans decide whose bust they spend their time viewing in Cooperstown. 

[balki1867]

11 minutes ago, TheDoyler23 said:

MLB turned a blind eye to steroids because it wes making them money. They had the disastrous strike in 1994 and rebuilt the popularity of the sport on the backs of the players.

 

Put them all in and let smart baseball fans decide whose bust they spend their time viewing in Cooperstown. 

 

Yeah the real travesty in all of this is that Bud Selig was the commissioner who oversaw that era and chose to bury his head in the sand for all the reasons you mentioned.  He's in the Hall of Fame and Bonds/Clemens aren't.  The steroid rationale should've disappeared the day Selig got inducted. 

[Hersh]

26 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Baseball dishonored itself by not taking the **** seriously for 15+ years...and then begrudgingly taking it seriously after their feet were held to the fire.  

 

More hypocrisy:  You can have Bonds' stuff in the HoF like his bat, his jersey, etc, in an exhibit but you can't have his plaque in the room with the other plaques.  I mean, that's a line you can't cross.

 

 

 

That's still 5 Cy Youngs and a 233-124 record with a 2.95 ERA before he started using.  That's a Hall of Fame career.  

 

Bonds was the only guy (still is) with 400 homers and 400 steals before he started juicing.  3 MVPs.  That's a Hall of Fame career, too.  

 

So I'll cite the numbers before they started cheating, they deserved it even if their careers ended in 98 and 99.

 

I would actually be okay if the Hall only chose to honor those numbers though you gave Clemens an extra 20 wins depending on when in '98 he started using. I view that as a fair compromise.

 

3 minutes ago, balki1867 said:

 

Yeah the real travesty in all of this is that Bud Selig was the commissioner who oversaw that era and chose to bury his head in the sand for all the reasons you mentioned.  He's in the Hall of Fame and Bonds/Clemens aren't.  The steroid rationale should've disappeared the day Selig got inducted. 

 

Also fair. Selig should not be in the Hall. 

 

Or they need to have a separate wing of the hall for that entire era of known cheaters and the commissioner who covered it up. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Hersh

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

I would actually be okay if the Hall only chose to honor those numbers though you gave Clemens an extra 20 wins depending on when in '98 he started using. I view that as a fair compromise.

 

 

Also fair. Selig should not be in the Hall. 

 

Or they need to have a separate wing of the hall for that entire era of known cheaters and the commissioner who covered it up. 

 

Pretending like these things didn't happen doesn't mean they didn't happen.

[Hersh]

1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Pretending like these things didn't happen doesn't mean they didn't happen.

 

You can condone cheating all you want. I will never. On their Hall plaques it should say the Hall only recognizes these numbers because they started using steroids the rest of their careers which dramatically inflated their numbers. Not that difficult. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

You can condone cheating all you want. I will never. On their Hall plaques it should say the Hall only recognizes these numbers because they started using steroids the rest of their careers which dramatically inflated their numbers. Not that difficult. 

 

You can call it cheating all you want.  You're failing to acknowledge that MLB on the whole was complicit with the entire thing and benefitted greatly from it.  Hanging Clemens and Bonds out to dry doesn't resolve anything.  

[PleaseBlitz]

1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 

You can condone cheating all you want. I will never. On their Hall plaques it should say the Hall only recognizes these numbers because they started using steroids the rest of their careers which dramatically inflated their numbers. Not that difficult. 

 

I think they should technically "be in the HOF" (but am kind of happy that they aren't), but i also think that any reference to them should be put in brutally honest context (which MLB sucks at).  It's not that hard to say Barry Bonds was the best player of his generation, but also was the poster boy for steroid abuse.  His numbers before X year were X and then his power numbers exploded along with his hat size.  Same with McGuire and Sosa and the rest.  They had these historical accomplishments, but they are marred by steroid use and their lies about it.  

 

And no induction ceremony, no "honoring" of this group.  Be honest that MLB turned a blind eye because it had to rebuild a fanbase after a strike season that pissed off the fans.  Be honest that probably way more MLB players during this era were juicing than just the superstars.  Be honest that their stats and records shouldn't be compared to players of other generations.  Be honest that this group dishonored the sport and that MLB was complicit.  

[Ball Security]

12 hours ago, clietas said:

Well dang Todd Helton was on the ballot. Put him in the HoF ya nerds. 

Peyton’s backup?

[Spaceman Spiff]

I also think it's hysterical that the anti-steroid/PED crowd is also actively watching the NFL.  Because 6'4, 250 pound linebackers that can run a 4.5 40 are all natural.