So David Ortiz Gets Voted Into The Hall Of Fame and Not Bonds Or Clemens?

[Captain Wiggles]

4 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Peyton’s backup?

 

Peyton was a backup to Helton his Freshman year. Helton was Heath Shulers backup in 92 n 93.

Edited January 26, 2022 by clietas

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

I also think it's hysterical that the anti-steroid/PED crowd is also actively watching the NFL.  Because 6'4, 250 pound linebackers that can run a 4.5 40 are all natural.

it actually doesn’t bother me with football because it’s a sport where grown men run into each other constantly. I’ve always just assumed college and pro football players are taking everything. Same with high school.  
 

but I’d also be ok with not allowing the confirmed steroids users into the HOF. 
 

i like the idea of making a wing for these people. We can call it the Hall of Cheaters. 
 

they can sign their memorabilia with HOC

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just now, tshile said:

it actually doesn’t bother me with football because it’s a sport where grown men run into each other constantly. I’ve always just assumed college and pro football players are taking everything. Same with high school.  
 

but I’d also be ok with not allowing the confirmed steroids users into the HOF. 
 

i like the idea of making a wing for these people. We can call it the Hall of Cheaters. 
 

they can sign their memorabilia with HOC

 

Again...no one's willing to acknowledge that MLB didn't start testing until 2003.  

 

But you're okay with grown men taking everything, even high schoolers, because the nature of the sport?  

[Ball Security]

3 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

As always it was my opinion but I do think feel specialists in baseball belong in the hall. DHs and RPs are specialists. That's why I have no problem with one of the greatest defensive outfielders (the greatest from an advanced metrics run saved view) in Andruw Jones never making it. 

 

 

I read online that there had been 59 new voters added in the past 3 years. 51 (86%) of them voted Bonds in this year. I wonder if the HOF hadn't changed their rules (it used to be 15 years of eligibility but they were afraid Bonds would get in and they changed it to 10 in 2014) what would have happened. 

Andruw Jones was more than a defensive specialist.  He hit 30+ HRs in seven seasons.  His problem is that his career cratered at a young age when he left Atlanta.  If he had broken in at say age 23 or 24 instead of 20, his career is looked at differently.  His seven year peak WAR (46.4) is higher than the average HOF CFer (44.7).

[Spaceman Spiff]

3 minutes ago, clietas said:

 

Peyton was a backup to Helton his Freshman year. Helton was Heath Shulers backup in 92 n 93.

 

I bet Helton would have had a better NFL career than Heath Shuler.  I'm aware that's a low bar.

[Ball Security]

4 minutes ago, clietas said:

 

Peyton was a backup to Helton his Freshman year. Helton was Heath Shulers backup in 92 n 93.

That’s right.  He was better than Peyton.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

You can call it cheating all you want.  You're failing to acknowledge that MLB on the whole was complicit with the entire thing and benefitted greatly from it.  Hanging Clemens and Bonds out to dry doesn't resolve anything.  

Exactly...the hypocrisy is mind-boggling to me. If you want to acknowledge that they tested positive for PEDs, go ahead. But how can you keep them out of the Hall of Fame? I don't think it's the role of the Hall of Fame to judge morality, just greatness. And these players were great and told a large part of the story of their eras. 

 

Museums are meant to tell stories about history...omission isn't usually a good way to do that. 

[tshile]

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Again...no one's willing to acknowledge that MLB didn't start testing until 2003.  

 

But you're okay with grown men taking everything, even high schoolers, because the nature of the sport?  

Definitely not ok with high schoolers. College I don’t care - you’re an adult, you’re free to make terrible decisions about your body. But I recognize high schoolers do. I played highschool sports. Among many things I did, I wrestled, which was just full of this stuff. I’m aware of what was going on then and I’m positive it’s nothing but worse now. 
 

you tried to find some hypocrisy in being against bonds and Clemens with some silly notion that watching a sport where no one has any misconceptions about what’s going on (if you watch football and don’t think somethings been going on, then… lol @ you )

 

but the reality is they don’t even compare. 
 

Basketball? Soccer? Hockey? 
 

sure. 
 

football? …… lol ok. You got us! ….

 

 

1 minute ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

But how can you keep them out of the Hall of Fame?

Because they were obnoxious douche bags to everyone, especially reporters, when it was going on. 
 

and now they need reporters to vote them into this supposedly prestigious thing. 
 

whoops. Way to think that one through. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Just now, tshile said:

 
 

you tried to find some hypocrisy in being against bonds and Clemens with some silly notion that watching a sport where no one has any misconceptions about what’s going on (if you watch football and don’t think somethings been going on, then… lol @ you )

 

but the reality is they don’t even compare. 
 

Basketball? Soccer? Hockey? 
 

sure. 
 

football? …… lol ok. You got us! ….

 

 

 

Yeah, no misconceptions here:

 

 

 

(Easily the worst photoshoot SI has ever done, btw)

 

More evidence that no one had any idea of what was going on:

 

 

 

But there is hypocrisy there, brother @tshile.  You're watching football, a sport where, as you noted, everyone is on "everything."  Were Clemens and Bonds the only guys juicing during that time?  

 

 

[Hersh]

3 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

You can call it cheating all you want.  You're failing to acknowledge that MLB on the whole was complicit with the entire thing and benefitted greatly from it.  Hanging Clemens and Bonds out to dry doesn't resolve anything.  

 

Did you not read where I said Selig should not be in the Hall. Whether someone benefited from cheating is irrelevant to whether someone should be immortalized.  

40 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Exactly...the hypocrisy is mind-boggling to me. If you want to acknowledge that they tested positive for PEDs, go ahead. But how can you keep them out of the Hall of Fame? I don't think it's the role of the Hall of Fame to judge morality, just greatness. And these players were great and told a large part of the story of their eras. 

 

Museums are meant to tell stories about history...omission isn't usually a good way to do that. 

 

They can be in the museum section and not be recognized as a Hall of Famer because of their cheating. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Did you not read where I said Selig should not be in the Hall. Whether someone benefited from cheating is irrelevant to whether someone should be immortalized.  

 

Yeah, but it's kinda too late.  He's in the Hall.  La Russa and Torre, too.  Plenty of people have already benefitted from it.  Doesn't matter if you think they should have or not...it's not irrelevant just because you say so.  It's relevant because it's already something that's happened.  People who benefitted from the PED era have already been inducted.  

 

The very sportswriters who are voting to keep Clemens and Bonds out are also the same who voted to give them Cy Youngs and MVPs.  They benefitted from website clicks and magazines and newspapers sold.  

 

You obviously don't like the thought of having Clemens and Bonds in, that's fine.  But I'm not sure what turning a blind eye to the hypocrisy of it all is doing for you.  

[Hersh]

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Yeah, but it's kinda too late.  He's in the Hall.  La Russa and Torre, too.  Plenty of people have already benefitted from it.  Doesn't matter if you think they should have or not...it's not irrelevant just because you say so.  It's relevant because it's already something that's happened.  People who benefitted from the PED era have already been inducted.  

 

The very sportswriters who are voting to keep Clemens and Bonds out are also the same who voted to give them Cy Youngs and MVPs.  They benefitted from website clicks and magazines and newspapers sold.  

 

You obviously don't like the thought of having Clemens and Bonds in, that's fine.  But I'm not sure what turning a blind eye to the hypocrisy of it all is doing for you.  

 

Who is turning a blind eye to it? I agree that those that voted in Selig are hypocrites and I'm perfectly happy to see all those that benefited removed. None of them should be in. They can have their own section in the museum on the entire era. I would move all known cheats and those that benefited into that section including those who are already in the Hall. It would be awesome if, on the plaques, it was added that this person "turned a blind eye to massive steroid use while allowing their career to benefit from it."

[Busch1724]

The one thing I find fascinating is that sure, these guys juiced. I understand why people wouldn't want them in. However, most of their peers juiced also. They were better than all the juicers. There's no way to know who the juicers were and who the clean ones were. Put in the best players, juiced or non-juiced...especially since testing didn't come about until '03. 

 

A-Rod I can understand not getting in. Testing started in '03 and he got popped again in '13. He knew the rules and couldn't play in '14. Later admitted to the use of PEDs. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

7 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Who is turning a blind eye to it? I agree that those that voted in Selig are hypocrites and I'm perfectly happy to see all those that benefited removed. None of them should be in. They can have their own section in the museum on the entire era. I would move all known cheats and those that benefited into that section including those who are already in the Hall. It would be awesome if, on the plaques, it was added that this person "turned a blind eye to massive steroid use while allowing their career to benefit from it."

 

...but people don't get removed from the Hall of Fame.  I don't think that's happened in any sport.

[PleaseBlitz]

People are also acting like not getting into the HOF is a fate worse than death, an INJUSTICE THAT MUST BE RECTIFIED.  

 

All the people at issue here are famous, made millions and millions of dollars, and already have their names in all the record books.  Who gives a **** if they aren't "officially" in the HOF?  Everyone who cares is immediately familiar with their accomplishments.  Clemens already released a statement saying he doesn't care.  

Edited January 26, 2022 by PleaseBlitz

[Spaceman Spiff]

35 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

People are also acting like not getting into the HOF is a fate worse than death, an INJUSTICE THAT MUST BE RECTIFIED.  

 

All the people at issue here are famous, made millions and millions of dollars, and already have their names in all the record books.  Who gives a **** if they aren't "officially" in the HOF?  Everyone who cares is immediately familiar with their accomplishments.  Clemens already released a statement saying he doesn't care.  

 

What else would I argue about with Hersh?  Shut up.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

40 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

People are also acting like not getting into the HOF is a fate worse than death, an INJUSTICE THAT MUST BE RECTIFIED.  

 

All the people at issue here are famous, made millions and millions of dollars, and already have their names in all the record books.  Who gives a **** if they aren't "officially" in the HOF?  Everyone who cares is immediately familiar with their accomplishments.  Clemens already released a statement saying he doesn't care.  

 

The HOF is a pretty big deal or it wouldn't exist. A lot of players strive for that recognition when they begin their career because it's one of a few ways to gain immortality. It's the recognition that you were one of the best of your era. 

 

Don't be dramatic...it's not a fate worse than death and no one is acting like that. But if you're going to have a HOF, it should be filled with the best players. Not the best players who also met these other set of unspoken requirements that were important to sports writers (but also happened to be personable and liked by said sports writers). Can we all admit that's a big part of this? Two of the best players of the 1990s-2000s didn't make the HOF for a crime many others committed because a lot of fat writers put THEIR egos over the right choice. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

 

[PleaseBlitz]

27 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

The HOF is a pretty big deal or it wouldn't exist. A lot of players strive for that recognition when they begin their career because it's one of a few ways to gain immortality. It's the recognition that you were one of the best of your era. 

 

So is your position that there should be no negative consequences for players who decided to take steroids where, if it wasn't explicitly banned, was certainly frowned upon (as evidenced by the players lying about doing it)?  

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

So is your position that there should be no negative consequences for players who decided to take steroids where, if it wasn't explicitly banned, was certainly frowned upon (as evidenced by the players lying about doing it)?  

 

What's your definition of a negative consequence, counselor? 

[tshile]

2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

But there is hypocrisy there, brother @tshile.  You're watching football, a sport where, as you noted, everyone is on "everything."  Were Clemens and Bonds the only guys juicing during that time?  

wait. 
 

baseball has taken a hard stance on this. That era is generally considered a black eye. The records related to it are generally considered a joke.

 

football has no such context. Football is also a sport where beasts of men run into each other every play. It’s literally about being stronger and faster and more will than the guy that lined up across from you. My preference would be that no one take steroids. And if the NFL decided to go hard on it like Baseball did, because it made a joke of their sport, and then held those people accountable by (in addition to everything else) not allowing them in the HOF… I would be perfectly happy with that and think it’s fine. 
 

but comparing football to baseball with regards to steroid, then trying to paint someone as a hypocrite because they completely understand why the poster boys for steroids use are blackballed by the HOF but they watch football… come on man. You’re trying way to hard to connect dots that don’t connect at all. 
 

I’ve got no problem with hating how baseball has handled this. 
 

but complaining that the poster boys for the steroids era are blackballed from the HOF because Ortiz got in? Lol have fun. Sorry you’re not able to come to grips with why they’re different. 
 

i applaud the writers. Both of those guys treated the reporters like ****. They bullied them and called the reporters integrity into question. Now they want the writers to vote for them for the HOF? Hah. Good luck with that. Both of them are pieces of **** (in terms of being a professional athletes and how they treated people.) I’ve got no tears to shed for them. 
 

if they didn’t cheat they would have made it anyways. 
 

which is ****ing hilarious to me and I hope they think about that every single day 😂 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

22 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

So is your position that there should be no negative consequences for players who decided to take steroids where, if it wasn't explicitly banned, was certainly frowned upon (as evidenced by the players lying about doing it)?  

There have been plenty of negative consequences. People HATE Bonds and Clemens. Clearly. I don't believe they should be kept out of the Hall of Fame...that's my position. 

[The Evil Genius]

We all know that greenies were rampant on baseball in the 1960s and 1970s. Even Babe Ruth tried to dope once by injecting himself with extract from sheep testicles. He did it trying to get more power at the plate (and in the bedroom). It made him violently sick. 😆

 

What Bonds did was wrong. Him and the hundreds of other pros doping at the time. But the consequences were felt as be was eventually blackballed from baseball. At 42 he hit .278 and 28hrs. And yet no one would sign him again? Please. 🙄

Edited January 26, 2022 by The Evil Genius

[TradeTheBeal!]

Baseball fans are insufferable.  A nation of bartmans.

[Spaceman Spiff]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

wait. 
 

baseball has taken a hard stance on this. That era is generally considered a black eye. The records related to it are generally considered a joke.

 

football has no such context. Football is also a sport where beasts of men run into each other every play. It’s literally about being stronger and faster and more will than the guy that lined up across from you. My preference would be that no one take steroids. And if the NFL decided to go hard on it like Baseball did, because it made a joke of their sport, and then held those people accountable by (in addition to everything else) not allowing them in the HOF… I would be perfectly happy with that and think it’s fine. 
 

but comparing football to baseball with regards to steroid, then trying to paint someone as a hypocrite because they completely understand why the poster boys for steroids use are blackballed by the HOF but they watch football… come on man. You’re trying way to hard to connect dots that don’t connect at all. 
 

I’ve got no problem with hating how baseball has handled this. 
 

but complaining that the poster boys for the steroids era are blackballed from the HOF because Ortiz got in? Lol have fun. Sorry you’re not able to come to grips with why they’re different. 
 

i applaud the writers. Both of those guys treated the reporters like ****. They bullied them and called the reporters integrity into question. Now they want the writers to vote for them for the HOF? Hah. Good luck with that. Both of them are pieces of **** (in terms of being a professional athletes and how they treated people.) I’ve got no tears to shed for them. 
 

if they didn’t cheat they would have made it anyways. 
 

which is ****ing hilarious to me and I hope they think about that every single day 😂 

 

Wait.

 

If I understand you correctly, you are happy that baseball has (begrudgingly) taken a hard line stance.  And that football doesn't really seem to take a hard stance .  And that the nature of football being a sport based on more physical contact somehow makes it more acceptable for PEDs....but you're also not stumping hard for them to go after PED usage...I'm assuming because if the NFL would go hard after PED users, the league would cease to exist and we all want to watch the WFT go 7-11 each year, right?  

 

So in one sport you're hardcore against rewarding PED users when the league itself didn't test for it....and in the other sport you've got a laissez faire approach to the whole thing.  You say you'd prefer them not to be used, but you and I both know that's not reality....and again, you're not sitting here wanting the NFL to go hard and enforce whatever rules they have in place.  You say you'd be happy with that, but you're not advocating for it to actually happen.  I wouldn't say you're inconsistent in being happy about baseball having a hard line stance and the NFL being kind of whatever towards PEDs but I'd say your views are a bit conflicting.

 

I shouldn't have to remind you (and I hate this argument because it's inherently flawed) that Clemens and Bonds never failed a test for PED usage.  They weren't mentioned in the Mitchell Report while Ortiz was.  In that way, they're different.  If this is REALLY about PED usage then Ortiz wouldn't be in, either.  It's that simple.

 

But it's not about that.  It's about who's an asshole and holding it against them, you've kind of admitted that much yourself.  You applaud the writers because both of those guys treaded reporters like **** and bullied them.  

 

I'm not shedding tears for them but I also think the writers have made it not about baseball, it's about the warm and fuzzies...when it should be about baseball.  It should be about performance on the field and not petty grudges because someone was mean to them.  I think Albert Belle, despite being a complete psychopath, deserved a better look at the Hall of Fame, he certainly warranted more than one year on the ballot.  But we all know why he didn't make it past a year and it has nothing to do with his performance on the field.