The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[CapsSkins]

8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

*drafts a guard at 5* 

 

The year is 2084. I am on my deathbed, surrounded by my family. The decision to stop treatment and transition to hospice care was a difficult one, mostly because of the toll it took on my family. I hold my wife's hand, wondering whether she'll forgive me. I hope one day she'll see that I wanted to go out on my own terms. I always said I wanted to live and die by my own decisions. I meant it. But I'm scared now. Sand keeps slipping through the hourglass and fewer and fewer grains wait their turn to cross sides - soon it will be mine. My eyelids grow heavy. Is it time? I steel myself and prepare to depart when I hear it... first faintly, then louder... then louder, still... it haunts me. I squeeze my wife's hand tight. She leans in close to me. She knows I'm in distress. She asks me what's wrong. I tell her about it, about the voice. "What voice?" she asks, trembling. I try to remember. I have to remember. What is this voice that has returned to me in my last hour?

 

Then it all comes rushing back. I know this voice, rushing forward from the dark crevices of my mind.  It's Jay Gruden. "Guaaarrrrrd" he howls.

 

I try to speak. It hurts. Everyone hushes. I focus, knowing these will be my final words. "The culture..." I whisper, "...is damn good."

 

Silence falls. I summon what last vestiges of strength remain... and raise my left hand up. 

 

Then Darkness.

[Skinsinparadise]

50 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

*drafts a guard at 5* 

 

I have that Jay Gruden in my head when I ever I think about it.  We took a guaard....

 

His first draft was good, 2nd draft was not.  But I do love one thing about his 2nd draft, which was picking up picks for the following draft was a real philosophy change for this FO.  

[Koolblue13]

48 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

And I'm saying that it doesn't matter what you do the other years. Who talks about the 84 bears? The 86? No it's just the 85. Who talks about the Vikings? They've had some great teams - the people eaters , the moss years. The Keenum year. But they never won it, so they were never the best. 

 

I don't care about being the Steelers and staying relevant for 50 years if I can't win at least one. Heck, the best thing other than a repeat may be to reload on a down year and try to go again. But there are no trophies for winning records. It's Superbowls or nothing every year. 

I have never argued about wanting to win a SB. I know the value of it.

42 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

The year is 2084. I am on my deathbed, surrounded by my family. The decision to stop treatment and transition to hospice care was a difficult one, mostly because of the toll it took on my family. I hold my wife's hand, wondering whether she'll forgive me. I hope one day she'll see that I wanted to go out on my own terms. I always said I wanted to live and die by my own decisions. I meant it. But I'm scared now. Sand keeps slipping through the hourglass and fewer and fewer grains wait their turn to cross sides - soon it will be mine. My eyelids grow heavy. Is it time? I steel myself and prepare to depart when I hear it... first faintly, then louder... then louder, still... it haunts me. I squeeze my wife's hand tight. She leans in close to me. She knows I'm in distress. She asks me what's wrong. I tell her about it, about the voice. "What voice?" she asks, trembling. I try to remember. I have to remember. What is this voice that has returned to me in my last hour?

 

Then it all comes rushing back. I know this voice, rushing forward from the dark crevices of my mind.  It's Jay Gruden. "Guaaarrrrrd" he howls.

 

I try to speak. It hurts. Everyone hushes. I focus, knowing these will be my final words. "The culture..." I whisper, "...is damn good."

 

Silence falls. I summon what last vestiges of strength remain... and raise my left hand up. 

 

Then Darkness.

I was rightfully thrown out of an outside bar in the rain in Key West that night. I was so drunk, thank goodness I'll never remember it.

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I have that Jay Gruden in my head when I ever I think about it.  We took a guaard....

 

His first draft was good, 2nd draft was not.  But I do love one thing about his 2nd draft, which was picking up picks for the following draft was a real philosophy change for this FO.  

It really wasn't a bad pick in hindsight, but damn I'll die on the "you draft a guard at 5" hill. 

[KillBill26]

1 hour ago, Ball Security said:

Only guy in the top 12 that draft to play seven seasons for the team that drafted him.

I hope we don't draft a G in the top 5 ever again, but that was a great pick, because it solidified RG, RT (Moses stepped his game up big time once scherf was next to him), and QB (we were able to see cousins was a legit NFL qb with a decent oline).  

 

Maybe drafting a RT in the first couple rounds next year will have similar effect?  Cosmi to RG, improved oline helps out new qb?

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

I hope we don't draft a G in the top 5 ever again, but that was a great pick, because it solidified RG, RT (Moses stepped his game up big time once scherf was next to him), and QB (we were able to see cousins was a legit NFL qb with a decent oline).  

 

Maybe drafting a RT in the first couple rounds next year will have similar effect?  Cosmi to RG, improved oline helps out new qb?

If not for Moses, Scherff could of just had a bad career at RT.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I have that Jay Gruden in my head when I ever I think about it.  We took a guaard....

The Jay Gruden (summarized) quote, "One player hasn't played and the other one's a guaaaaard" actually is one of my favorite things Jay Gruden ever said.  SHADE THROWN.  And I liked it.  

 

Galdi loves to play the drop.  

28 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

If not for Moses, Scherff could of just had a bad career at RT.

Eh, they would have moved Scherff inside very quickly regardless of what they could do at RT.  

[mistertim]

22 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Eh, they would have moved Scherff inside very quickly regardless of what they could do at RT.  

 

Yeah I remember reporters talking about how they originally started Scherff at tackle to see how he'd fare and it didn't go well at all. It was pretty clear that the pre-draft evaluation of him (that he'd be a guard in the NFL, not a tackle) was pretty accurate.

 

I think they knew he wasn't going to be a legit RT.

[FootballZombie]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

With Mike White its tricky because you got to hope its not like a Matt Flynn, Scott Mitchell situation.  

 

My first response was "Who the heck is Scott Mitchell?" and it made your point even stronger.

 

Does Zack WIlson have any former coaches in the NFL? Who is giving that guy a shot? Avoid that guy like the plague.

[wit33]

12 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Trent Dilfer was the QB of a winning Super Bowl team.  I know this example gets thrown around a lot and we generally laugh at the prospect of it ever happening again.  Certainly seems silly to bet on a Dilferish QB riding a team to the Super Bowl again.

 

Any bet that doesn’t involve Mahomes winning the Super Bowl is silly. Really all bets on a QB winning the SB is silly (not named Tom Brady) lol. 

A Dilferish QB making 3% of the cap with an elite defense has a better chance to win the SB You han Derek Carr making 12-17% of the cap with average pieces around him. Also, the QB making 3% allows the organization to continue to hunt for the next Mahomes on a rookie contract without hurting the feelings of the entitled overpaid average QB.
 

The 3% cap QB is grateful. 

 

12 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

If Heinicke was somehow able to ride this run game and defense to a Super Bowl, that would be amazing.  However, like the Ravens - I’d let him walk after it was over. 😭

Keep him, develop Howell, and draft a QB you love. Remain lean with ability to pivot as needed is the key. Don’t get pinned down to the competent overpaid QB. 

 

11 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Case Keenum was a QB of a 13-3 team that went to the NFC Championship game.

They haven’t made it back or close since. How about that? 

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't consider myself an "anti-Heinicke guy" or anti any player on this team.   Is there anyone here who actually would be actively rooting for Heinicke to lose in the playoffs as you suggest here?

 

100% feel there are those who felt in previous weeks Washington wasn’t going to make playoffs, no longer cared if they won or loss, and more attachment/care towards position on Heineke. 
 

Im sure this has decreased a bit now that Washington is in the thick of the playoff race. Still there are some who’ve shared they don’t care about a playoff birth or winning one game lol

 

Fortunately for me this go round at QB I don’t have a strong position and can just root for Washington blindly. Give me bonus football is I want. Just win baby!
 

 

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Your point if I read it seems to be Heinicke is a deep playoff run type of QB, but you are not sure if he is a wnning SB QB. 
 

If I’m projecting who I expect to make deep playoff runs over next 5 years consistently, the list would be Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, and Jackson. That’s it.
 

All the rest require things to be amazing around them and luck. Of course, varying level, but still require things to be great around them to achieve high level team success. 
 

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The ones who you deem are "anti" Heinicke.  And I am not sure i fit that list because I don't hit the point as much as some do -- but if so or in defense if anyone that supposedly fits that category, from what I casn tell they are simply passionate fans and want to see a SB win or a consistent winner for the long haul and don't think Heinicke is the guy to do that.  Not because they don't like him but because of his obvious talent deficiences compared to some of the better QBs in the league. 
 

 

I don’t think it has anything to do with not liking the dude, it’s more about ego and wanting position to be right. Stating the obvious, we don’t know these guys, so to not like them is difficult. When spending hours supporting and defending a position, it’s natural to want to root for that position. 
 

I was in this position relating to Kirk Cousins at times. Arguing that he wasn’t a top 10 QB, didn’t deserve to be paid, wasn’t a team guy, needed to become more of a playmaker, wasn’t worth a 1st round pick certainly created a bias against him. I can’t say I actively rooted against Washington, but there was some feeling of wanting to be right and feeling validation at moments and at same time upset at a loss. Both can be true. 
 

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'll add this talk about how well Heinicke will play and how deep he will go into the playoffs -- seems bad karma discussion, lets get to the playoffs first. 😀

 Haha…

 

Nah man, the Heineke path is void of superstitions, karma, rituals etc., all you need is blind faith and all its magic will present its self  Remove self from logic and take the ride. 

 

 *Pocket watch swinging*… 5, 4, 3, 2, 1…. Say it with me, “I will support Heineke, celebrate all his goodness, gifts, and have unrelenting faith he will lose in the SB to either Mahomes or Josh Allen”. This is the way. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by wit33

[wit33]

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Ww had one the previous season, they will get back there IMO next season.  QB is obviously the harder part.  We've had strong O lines for a good part of Dan's tenure.  But rarely had both weapons in the running game and passing game at the same time while having a good defense.  We've had part of the symphony during different eras but can't think of an era with a roster like this -- closest IMO was the Gibbs 2 era.
 

 

If you mean by using high draft capital, then OK.  But IMO its the code red position of the off season is certainly O line especially if you want to build the roster your way which doesn't involve likely a higher end QB.

 

 

Yes, high draft capital, use all the capital you need there. Remain extremely cheap,  be elite in development and add veterans as an organization you love that other teams are undervaluing.
 

Olineman have a high variance of play similar to DBs and are highly impacted by their environment: QB, scheme, and offensive identity. 
 

13 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I share your optimism that Masko can do it.  And IMO likely do it fast.  But they still must invest in the spot to pull it off. 

It’s being done mid season at a high level. High level being Masko and company producing a Oline supporting an elite run game over last 6 weeks or so. 
 

I expect Washington to run for 150 plus yards tomorrow. This coming from a patchwork Oline. Elite coaching going on. 
 

I know you’re a Ron guy as well (I’ve teetered more in the negative than even you though), but he’s providing elite returns this season. Cool stuff!

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Any bet that doesn’t involve Mahomes winning the Super Bowl is silly. Really all bets on a QB winning the SB is silly (not named Tom Brady) lol. 

A Dilferish QB making 3% of the cap with an elite defense has a better chance to win the SB You han Derek Carr making 12-17% of the cap with average pieces around him. Also, the QB making 3% allows the organization to continue to hunt for the next Mahomes on a rookie contract without hurting the feelings of the entitled overpaid average QB.
 

The 3% cap QB is grateful. 

 

No team with a Dilferish QB is going to win a SB nowadays. None. Doesn't matter how good the defense is. It was over 20 years ago that that happened. Dilfer was awful. Your comparison is meaningless because the chance of either of those teams winning a SB is virtually nil.

 

Even with the recent teams that did get to or win the SB with a mediocre QB, the mediocre QB tended to get hot in the playoffs. Foles and Flacco come to mind. However, compared to Dilfer, Foles and Flacco were All Pros.

 

Again, I know you salivate over salary caps and QBs taking up little of it with a great team around them, but I think it needs to be put in to perspective. The only way that's realistically going to work is if you get lucky and the top QB you drafted quickly turns into a stud so you can ride his rookie contract to a SB (Mahomes, Burrow, for example). If you have a QB taking up 3% of your cap, and he's not a rookie, it means you're rebuilding and waiting for your QB. It doesn't mean you have a chance at winning a SB.

 

We just need to stop with this pipe dream about a cheap QB bringing us to the promised land. It's not going to happen. Even the Niners with consistently elite defenses and running games and a decent but not great QB in Jimmy G couldn't win it all.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

I don’t think it has anything to do with not liking the dude, it’s more about ego and wanting position to be right. Stating the obvious, we don’t know these guys, so to not like them is difficult. When spending hours supporting and defending a position, it’s natural to want to root for that position. 

I really don’t think it’s that at all with Heinicke, generally because there’s not much to ‘be right’ about.  He is who he is, in fact - I’d argue we’ve seen better from him early on than we have this season.  Literally everything is running optimally for him and we still find ourselves in low scoring squeakers that could easily have went the other way.

 

There really is nothing for an ‘Anti Heinicke’ or whatever you want to call us, to concede.  He hasn’t elevated his play in any way.  Our OC has adopted a scheme to actively gameplan around his deficiencies, gives him high percentage plays to hit when we do pass, and every other aspect of the team is running at a higher level than years past.

 

In summary, I don’t think identifying that Heinicke is merely along for the ride and generally not very good is something to hang a hat on.  I would much prefer to be wrong and have that arm strength training actually have paid dividends, or for him to find that will to scamper and pick up yards on the ground and be more like the player his biggest fans describe him as.

 

None of us scout players for a living, all of us get some right and get some wrong.  It would be much to my benefit as a fan to be wrong about Heinicke. 

[CapsSkins]

I think Heinicke can add scrambling back into his game. Especially if he has Scott Turner in the headset telling him after playcalls to take off if a lane is open and his first read is covered

[dunfer]

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

We just need to stop with this pipe dream about a cheap QB bringing us to the promised land. It's not going to happen. Even the Niners with consistently elite defenses and running games and a decent but not great QB in Jimmy G couldn't win it all.

cheap rookie qbs are the ticket to a dynasty window though.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

34 minutes ago, wit33 said:

They haven’t made it back or close since. How about that? 

Bad argument, considering Case Keenum

hasnt so much as sniffed a starting job in a long time.

 

If anything, Case is an example of how a limited QB can ride the wave, even to something wild like a 13-3 season, only to be completely forgotten in a league desperate for QBs.

[wit33]

16 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Bad argument, considering Case Keenum

hasnt so much as sniffed a starting job in a long time.

 

If anything, Case is an example of how a limited QB can ride the wave, even to something wild like a 13-3 season, only to be completely forgotten in a league desperate for QBs.

No different than a competent QB many clamor and want to pay premium dollar for, “riding a wave”. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by wit33

[kingdaddy]

12 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Case Keenum was a QB of a 13-3 team that went to the NFC Championship game.

Yep....I'm a Phillies fan and the ride they took us on this year came out of nowhere. This Commanders team reminds me of the Phillies, they have no business beating most teams but they just keep winning because they believe they can. Speaks to the power of a tight knit group who all believe in each other. How long can TH spin this magic? 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

I think Heinicke can add scrambling back into his game. Especially if he has Scott Turner in the headset telling him after playcalls to take off if a lane is open and his first read is covered

 

The coaches can only do so much. They literally called Heinicke out in public last season for not running when he had the chance and he still didn't do it.

[zCommander]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

The coaches can only do so much. They literally called Heinicke out in public last season for not running when he had the chance and he still didn't do it.

 

I laugh every time you say the coaches called him "out" when Ron said he talked to Taylor about it. I guess in your book that is calling "out" a player instead of coaching a player instead lol

 

This is not last year but THIS year... 

 

 

[mh86]

Cool a clip of a spin move. Meanwhile, check his rush stats for the year. He doesn’t use his feet. I’ve got it for you, he’s rushed for 4, 29,17, 10, 2, and -1. The comments aren’t about whether he can do a fancy spin move once this year, it’s him using the tools he has to help the offense. 

Edited December 4, 2022 by mh86

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I laugh every time you say the coaches called him "out" when Ron said he talked to Taylor about it. I guess in your book that is calling "out" a player instead of coaching a player instead lol

 

This is not last year but THIS year... 

 

 

 

Both Ron and Scott were asked in interviews about it last season and they both said they wished Heinicke would use his legs more. Yeah, that's basically calling a player out in public.

 

Also, your counter to the irrefutable fact that Heinicke doesn't use his legs much (Matt ****ing Ryan has more rushing yards than TH) is "But he did a spin move once"? 

[TChaler70]

I am starting to think there is something weird going on with Wentz. Your 28 mil QB isnt suiting up in a big NFC east game in Dec because of a cold when it was reported he had it early in the week. Maybe I am missing it but I cant remember when a player missed a game for a legit cold (99 out again this week) that wasnt covid. I know a lot of you already love Sam but TH4 goes down in the 1st quarter and your going with a 5th rounder that has no game experience with a 28 mil qb on the roster. Combine that with last week something IMO isnt right.

[zCommander]

24 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Both Ron and Scott were asked in interviews about it last season and they both said they wished Heinicke would use his legs more. Yeah, that's basically calling a player out in public.

 

Also, your counter to the irrefutable fact that Heinicke doesn't use his legs much (Matt ****ing Ryan has more rushing yards than TH) is "But he did a spin move once"? 

 

And yet Turner is now saying this 

 

So what does Turner want to see from Heinicke for the remainder of this season?

 

“I just think he just needs to keep doing what he’s doing,” Turner said Friday. “We have some plays where he missed some throws, or we’ve had some negative plays obviously that have come up. Just eliminate those, but just keep playing his game. He doesn’t have to do anything special or different. Bring the energy that he brings and play smart football.”

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

And yet Turner is now saying this 

 

So what does Turner want to see from Heinicke for the remainder of this season?

 

“I just think he just needs to keep doing what he’s doing,” Turner said Friday. “We have some plays where he missed some throws, or we’ve had some negative plays obviously that have come up. Just eliminate those, but just keep playing his game. He doesn’t have to do anything special or different. Bring the energy that he brings and play smart football.”

 

And Turner saying generic stuff like this has nothing to do with the fact that he was asked about it last season and said he wished Heinicke would run more. So did Ron. They clearly don't think he used his legs enough.

 

Maybe they've sort of given up on that and don't care as much this season because Heinicke's role is even more limited than last and they're asking him to do so little since the run game is working and the defense is playing great.

 

Or maybe it was just a generic answer to a generic question and they still wish he would use his legs more. None of that changes the fact that they did call him out on it last season and he is using his legs less than a statue like Matt Ryan.

[mh86]

10 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

And yet Turner is now saying this 

 

So what does Turner want to see from Heinicke for the remainder of this season?

 

“I just think he just needs to keep doing what he’s doing,” Turner said Friday. “We have some plays where he missed some throws, or we’ve had some negative plays obviously that have come up. Just eliminate those, but just keep playing his game. He doesn’t have to do anything special or different. Bring the energy that he brings and play smart football.”

4, 29,17, 10, 2, and -1