The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Wentz was sacked a **** ton in Philly. Came here and got sacked a **** ton. That’s just his game. Didn’t matter if he was behind a good OL or bad OL. Also I find it strange that he got no benefit of the doubt on this specific issue from fans last season. 

 

Matt Ryan has got sacked a bunch through multiple OLs in ATL and supposedly good unit in Indy last year.

 

I mean Russell Wilson has been the poster boy of “is it him or the line” his entire career. After last season in a new city, I think it’s safe to say it’s him. 
 

Obviously he’s a POS but I wish Deshaun Watson would get healthy solely so I can see if his sack problem will follow him to Cleveland. 
 

Sometimes this stuff is just ingrained in a guy’s style and we as fans have to dig deeper than surface level analysis. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Wentz was sacked a **** ton in Philly. Came here and got sacked a **** ton. That’s just his game. Didn’t matter if he was behind a good OL or bad OL. Also I find it strange that he got no benefit of the doubt on this specific issue from fans last season. 

 

Matt Ryan has got sacked a bunch through multiple OLs in ATL and supposedly good unit in Indy last year.

 

I mean Russell Wilson has been the poster boy of “is it him or the line” his entire career. After last season in a new city, I think it’s safe to say it’s him. 
 

Obviously he’s a POS but I wish Deshaun Watson would get healthy solely so I can see if his sack problem will follow him to Cleveland. 
 

Sometimes this stuff is just ingrained in a guy’s style and we as fans have to dig deeper than surface level analysis. 

There’s getting sacked a lot and there is getting sacked near 14% of the times you drop back.  We have the worst of both worlds, a QB who holds the ball too long and a bad line.  Not just bad at pass protection but bad all around.

[MartinC]

45 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Not sure I agree with this. You can watch film and tell with some degree of accuracy if sacks are caused by a blown protection, a lineman just getting beaten 1 : 1, or a combination of coverage/no separation and the QB not getting rid of the ball.

 

That said getting Sam better protection is a good thing whatever. There are certainly more than enough of the sacks (and hits/pressures) which can be charged to the line!

[Thinking Skins]

In a weird way, I think Sam's sack problem could be solved through BRob developing in EBs system. Let's say he comes out and starts getting 5 and 6 a pop. I'm not saying we don't throw the ball at all, but that will help to neutralize the pass rushers. 

 

Two things right now are true, we are the most pass dominant and the most sacked team. Maybe that's not just a corollary but a causation as well. So as we increase the runs the sacks will go down. 

 

Just a thought

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

https://omny.fm/shows/grant-and-danny/grant-reacts-to-eagers-backup-qb-claim-on-howell
 

I don’t agree with the analyst’s point that Sam is a “good backup” but his points about sack rates and their stickiness year over year are valid and are food for thought. 
 

 

[wit33]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Even if it was because we were hanging onto the dregs of past glory, we were relevant. We had one of the biggest fan bases. We were one of the premier NFL franchises.

 

That pretty much fully evaporated in the Bruce era. We were scummy, unexciting and provided nothing in the way of player perks or riled up base.

 

25 year olds can careless about any of this, but I hear you. 

 

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

In a weird way, I think Sam's sack problem could be solved through BRob developing in EBs system. Let's say he comes out and starts getting 5 and 6 a pop. I'm not saying we don't throw the ball at all, but that will help to neutralize the pass rushers. 

 

Two things right now are true, we are the most pass dominant and the most sacked team. Maybe that's not just a corollary but a causation as well. So as we increase the runs the sacks will go down. 

 

Just a thought

 

 

No, keep pushing forward at full throttle with Howell, offering him plenty of chances to command a high-volume passing game. Managing just 25-30 pass attempts is reserved for the lower tier of average, and this is something Howell should be capable of handling as the season progresses. A quarterback who can throw 40-50 times and effectively manage the game can vie with the elite.
 

I’m not suggesting this is the sole approach, but I’m fully on board with the Reid/EB philosophy when it comes to quarterback development. The bottom line is, can they or can’t they handle a high-volume passing attack.

[zCommander]

7 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

He didn't want to stay because he didn't have a fully guaranteed contract. Kirk would have had no problem quarterbacking for this franchise if he had been offered an elite-level contract at the time. Let's be clear, he's no martyr, just a 100% capitalist, lol.

 

All he wanted was an extra 3 mil per year for 3 years. But Dan had other plans. Building himself a $100 mil yacht instead. 

 

6 hours ago, dyst said:

Why do people get so butt hurt when folks criticize Sam Howell for holding onto the ball too damn long. He DOES hold onto the ball too long, and the LINE does suck. Guess what, both can be true but you don’t hear people crying when the line is criticized. He’s young, he should hopefully improve, but god forbid he is criticized. 

 

Don't know where you are getting this from but everyone here knows that at times Sam doesn't throw away the ball when he should. Pretty much everyone has said that. Not sure who said he doesn't. Can you quote them to let us all know who that bad person is lol.

 

He likes to hold on to it longer in effort to make a play. His OL can't hold the defenders for an extra .3 milliseconds. Sam needs to process things faster. He will/should improve in this area. 

 

4 hours ago, NewCliche21 said:

Don't forget that the Osweiler signing totally ****ed up the QB market forever while this was going on.

 

Yeah, that was crazy. Kirk knew he was better than Osweiler and that's why he wanted the extra $3mil. But Scot and Bruce were not willing to give him that as it was too early to know if he was really good or not. They bet on themselves and lost. 

 

34 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

I really don’t get this line of thinking. 
 

Are we basically saying that Sam is the most unlucky QB in recent NFL history because not only does he have the worst OL in the NFL but he also had the worst OL in college as well? To me, if a guy struggles at something in college and then gets in the league and does the same thing, I’m going to look at him as the common denominator. Some guys are just sack magnets. Sure you can hypothetically draft/acquire 5 studs and put them in front of him but if he can’t maneuver a pocket, will it matter? I really don’t know at this point. 

 

He actually did have a really bad OL during his last year of college. Then he comes here and you can't even deny that our OL is not that great. So the common denominator is the OL. But, still he need to throw the ball away quicker or find his guy quicker as well. 

[Skinsinparadise]

If Sam is a pure sack magnet and the O line has nothing to do with it, how did this happen?

 

 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

7 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

All he wanted was an extra 3 mil per year for 3 years. But Dan had other plans. Building himself a $100 mil yacht instead. 

 

 

Don't know where you are getting this from but everyone here knows that at times Sam doesn't throw away the ball when he should. Pretty much everyone has said that. Not sure who said he doesn't. Can you quote them to let us all know who that bad person is lol.

 

He likes to hold on to it longer in effort to make a play. His OL can't hold the defenders for an extra .3 milliseconds. Sam needs to process things faster. He will/should improve in this area. 

 

 

Yeah, that was crazy. Kirk knew he was better than Osweiler and that's why he wanted the extra $3mil. But Scot and Bruce were not willing to give him that as it was too early to know if he was really good or not. They bet on themselves and lost. 

 

 

He actually did have a really bad OL during his last year of college. Then he comes here and you can't even deny that our OL is not that great. So the common denominator is the OL. But, still he need to throw the ball away quicker or find his guy quicker as well. 

Looks like he had 3/5s of that Oline get drafted to the NFL but ok. Agree to disagree. 

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If Sam is a pure sack magnet and the O line has nothing to do with it, how did this happen?

 

 

He was still sacked 5 times and at least 3 were him walking directly into the sacks??? What is this this proving?

 

ATL couldn’t buy a sack prior to Sunday 

Edited October 18, 2023 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Sam takes too many sacks. But people are downplaying how well he has played. He is top half of the league in any metric you want to use. 
 

Sam is really smart (top Wonderlic score of his class if I remember correctly). Sam is tough as nails.  Sam puts in the work. All of these things give me high confidence that he will figure it out.
 

Why do people act like his sack numbers are a finished product? Are we just bored and in the doldrums of another **** season? Probably the latter. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[zCommander]

 

8 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Looks like he had 3/5s of that Oline get drafted to the NFL but ok. Agree to disagree. 

 

Their OL gave up a sack on 11.4% of all offensive snaps, which ranked 126th in the FBS.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

1 minute ago, zCommander said:

 

 

Their OL gave up a sack on 11.4% of all offensive snaps, which ranked 126th in the FBS.

……..you’re almost there lol 

 

seriously what are the odds of a guy ending up behind all time terrible O lines in 2 separate situations?

Edited October 18, 2023 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Sam takes too many sacks. But people are downplaying how well he has played. He is top half of the league in any metric you want to use. 
 

Sam is really smart (top Wonderlic score of his class if I remember correctly). Sam is tough as nails.  Sam puts in the work. All of these things give me high confidence that he will figure it out.
 

Why do people act like his sack numbers are a finished product? Are we just bored and in the doldrums of another **** season? Probably the latter. 

Everyone and by everybody I mean Kevin Sheehan wants something to complain about, so he will invite people on his show to knock him down. It's cool because people pointed out how Kirk followers were willing to live with his critical interceptions at the worse moments but these sacks are what's not going to make him a franchise guy? C'mon. 

 

Let's take after the Giants game, we know how Kirk always broke down over them. 

[zCommander]

4 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

……..you’re almost there lol 

 

seriously what are the odds of a guy ending up behind all time terrible O lines in 2 separate situations?

 

Ron. Ron is the answer to this. He knew we had a bad OL TWO years ago and yet still went with getting more players for the D instead. The odds were against Howell. His bad luck I guess. 

 

What if you switched Purdy with Howell. Do you really think Purdy would be doing things any better here like he is in San Fran? I know not all teams have a great OL but you know what it helps a young QB a bit. You can't argue with that though. Not absolving Howell of all the sacks as some are on him. That is evident. But some can be less of with better OL help though. 

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

14 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Ron. Ron is the answer to this. He knew we had a bad OL TWO years ago and yet still went with getting more players for the D instead. The odds were against Howell. His bad luck I guess. 

 

What if you switched Purdy with Howell. Do you really think Purdy would be doing things any better here like he is in San Fran? I know not all teams have a great OL but you know what it helps a young QB a bit. You can't argue with that though. Not absolving Howell of all the sacks as some are on him. That is evident. But some can be less off with better OL help though. 

We’re on the same team, man. I like Sam. This is really an old school v new school philosophical debate more than anything. The new school thinking is that sacks are mainly driven by the QB. Even if the protection isn’t ideal, a QB should theoretically be able to move around in the pocket and avoid sacks. That’s why analysts say that sack rates are sticky. It’s an inherent trait for QBs regardless of circumstance. Sure there are times when they have zero chance on a play but those instances are way rarer than we want to admit. It’s like throwing picks or even pass accuracy, either you get it or you don’t. And no the OLine isn’t top 10 but by almost every quantifiable metric, they are average/slightly below average so when I see that we’re headed towards record breaking sacks levels, I’m gonna point most of my blame pie towards the piece of the offense that always seems to get sacked at an extraordinary rate. 
 

The sack thing is the only issue I have with Sam. He’s blown away every expectation I’ve had for him. Completely blown them away. But I wish we could have better discussions when it comes to sacks because we literally had this same debate on this very site with some of the same posters 10 years ago lol. That’s all it is for me. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93

[Warhead36]

There is no doubt that Howell holds the ball too long and a large portion of the sacks are on him.

 

The questions that must be answered are:

 

1. Can Howell improve in this area? He's still a guy only in his second NFL season and having made only six meaningful starts. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility that he gets better in this area. 

 

2. If he doesn't improve, or improves but not by enough, can he still be a viable starting QB despite taking an above average amount of sacks? Meaning he'll have to ball out and be responsible for a lot more touchdown drives and big plays to make up for the drives he kills by taking unnecessary sacks.

 

At the very least, he's earned the entirety of this season to see if he develops.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

There is no doubt that Howell holds the ball too long and a large portion of the sacks are on him.

 

The questions that must be answered are:

 

1. Can Howell improve in this area? He's still a guy only in his second NFL season and having made only six meaningful starts. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility that he gets better in this area. 

 

2. If he doesn't improve, or improves but not by enough, can he still be a viable starting QB despite taking an above average amount of sacks? Meaning he'll have to ball out and be responsible for a lot more touchdown drives and big plays to make up for the drives he kills by taking unnecessary sacks.

 

At the very least, he's earned the entirety of this season to see if he develops.

I’m probably oversimplifying it but man if he just got to “bad” levels like Watson or Russ, that alone would be huge. I feel like that can’t be impossible 
 

[GoDeep81]

Im just happy our rookie(ish) QB's big "gripe" is, he holds the ball too long. lol Damn it could be soooo much worse! 

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Stone Cold said:

I think by the time our new ol starts to gel will be just about the time young Sam has mastered the playbook & the game has slowed down.  Hopefully by then, our defense has improved as well

 

…new as in after this offseason 

He’ll likely be needing to master a new playbook after this season. But I don’t feel too worried about that, the step backward will be more than worth the better situation he’ll be in going forward. And he’ll have 18 total starts under his belt by then, health willing. 

[Stone Cold]

3 minutes ago, Conn said:

He’ll likely be needing to master a new playbook after this season. But I don’t feel too worried about that, the step backward will be more than worth the better situation he’ll be in going forward. And he’ll have 18 total starts under his belt by then, health willing. 

Excellent point…noted.  

[Conn]

1 hour ago, Thinking Skins said:

In a weird way, I think Sam's sack problem could be solved through BRob developing in EBs system. Let's say he comes out and starts getting 5 and 6 a pop. I'm not saying we don't throw the ball at all, but that will help to neutralize the pass rushers. 

 

Two things right now are true, we are the most pass dominant and the most sacked team. Maybe that's not just a corollary but a causation as well. So as we increase the runs the sacks will go down. 

 

Just a thought

Our terrible YPC in the running game isn’t because Robinson needs to “develop” in EB’s system. Half of the dude’s rushing attempts aren’t even real rush attempts, they’re predictable empty plays on 2nd and long after 1st down incompletions, they are statistically the least efficient situations to run in the NFL (and on top of it our OL can’t run block). So a huge percentage of our already-few RB carries are just garbage plays with little chance of gaining yardage. Unless EB starts changing the context within which he calls run plays (and unless he fully ditches that delayed shotgun draw we’re terrible at) you aren’t going to see the efficiency you’re looking for from the run game, to take pressure off the passing game. There’s no world (imo of course) where Robinson starts being remarkably, or even marginally, more efficient in the majority of situations he’s being asked to run the ball behind this OL. The entire play sequencing and run game design is just bad. And I suspect we’ll need to put up with it all season and just hope that Howell keeps developing for the next staff despite it all.  

[Thinking Skins]

Just wanted to throw a stat out there

 

Alex Smith, someone who developed throughout his career went through I think 22 5+ sack games including a 9 sack game when he was in SF. 12 of these games came when he was in KC. I don't think he had a 1000 yard rusher with him after his first year there. 

 

Something to think about

[wit33]

An offense with a governor in place would undoubtedly reduce Howell’s sack numbers, but that doesn’t align with the Reid QB development model. Stay resolute, EB. Continue to explore and be aggressive in the pursuit of developing greatness at the quarterback position. I’m looking forward to witnessing more 40-plus pass games from the Washington QB in the upcoming games. Lettts gooo!!! Sink or swim. 

[FootballZombie]

3 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

He was still sacked 5 times and at least 3 were him walking directly into the sacks??? What is this this proving?

 

All it means is Lucas held his blocks longer than everyone else on the O-line sans Leno... and its really only impressive to do that longer than Cosmi considering how many pressures Wylie and Charles give up.

 

 

 

I don't really need any more information to know that our Oline is bad at blocking, our QB racks up sacks and our playcalling magnifies the issue. I'm very confident in all of that at this point.

 

What I'm more interested in is what will be done about it b/c its fairly obvious that it is not a sustainable avenue to have your QB eat that much damage, unless you somehow believe Sam's body will be just fine on his current pace week-over-week... which I don't think anyone does.

 

At this point the O has to change or the QB will, and I don't mean his style of play.

[KDawg]

8 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

……..you’re almost there lol 

 

seriously what are the odds of a guy ending up behind all time terrible O lines in 2 separate situations?

His line prior to his junior year was fine, though. And this OL is definitely not good, so… fairly high.

Edited October 18, 2023 by KDawg