The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

The extremes that both sides go when it comes to Taylor Heinicke is very similar to politics. No objectivity. My side is always 100% correct. No happy medium. Why can't we admit that Taylor has limitations and probably not the qb of the future BUT still give him credit where credit is due? I haven't heard the Taylor pessimists give him praise for getting the pivotal 9 yard scramble on 3rd and 6 then get outta bounds, the huge 4th down conversion to Samuel, the perfect 25 or so yard throw to Cam Sims, the nice gamewinning qb sneak, the calm, poise, clutch gene etc. It's ridiculous to not be able to acknowledge this. Washington's organization was like 1 - 134 or something like that when trailing by 2 scores with 5 min left in a game. Isn't it phenomenal that Heinicke orchestrated that? We should appreciate the positive things. Especially with everything we've been through.

Edited November 1, 2022 by AlwaysBeRedskins2Me

[skinny21]

44 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think Ron will take a 1st round QB if they think that's the best option. They've been willing to do plenty to get a better QB in here, and that apparently included trying to trade up for Fields, but they weren't willing to pay the huge price to do so. Unfortunately once again we'll be a ****ty team that managed to squeak by in just enough games to make sure we can't land a top QB prospect in 2023.

 

Should be interesting. They clearly know TH isn't the answer so the question is whether Wentz comes back, and how he looks when he does. And if Wentz still doesn't look good will Ron double down on his decision to bring in Wentz out of pride or would he admit that it wasn't the right move and do in a different direction?

 

Tannehill and Carr probably aren't going anywhere unless their teams cut them or try to trade them and I don't think either of them would be worth what they'd probably be asking for. Jameis, Jimmy G, and Teddy are all ultimate "meh" QBs are would hardly be an upgrade over Heinicke. Pass

Yeah, I don’t think RR/the FO will be worried about going after a rookie.  Two years left on Ron’s deal, the support system (run game, defense and passing weapons) is pretty solid, though obviously they have to improve the oline.  A rookie might mean a drop-off in wins, but they could also provide some hope for the future.  They might balk at who’s available, or the cost to move up for a guy they like though… we’ll see.

 

Prior to the last couple of games, I assumed there was no way TH was returning, but I’ve changed my thinking.  I think he provides a baseline for Howell or a rookie.  They’d have to look pretty decent, including understanding the drops/timing/routes/reads w/in the offense, to beat him out.  And of course, he also provides an example of how to execute those things.

 

I’m with you on the vets.  Use the money elsewhere and roll with Howell or a rookie.  With that said, it wouldn’t shock me though if they go that direction (and use the 1st on an olineman).

[Jumbo]

Be sure to note the guy above who just got a one week ban for the political comment.

 

If you happen to lack awareness of this, see sticky thread at top of stadium that's been there for a very long time. The policy has been a thing here forever.🙂

 

Being a member of the Oblivious Club is not a good thing. 

[skinny21]

10 minutes ago, AlwaysBeRedskins2Me said:

Why can't we admit that Taylor has limitations and probably not the qb of the future BUT still give him credit where credit is due? I haven't heard the Taylor pessimists give him praise for getting the pivotal 9 yard scramble on 3rd and 6 then get outta bounds, the huge 4th down conversion to Samuel, the perfect 25 or so yard throw to Cam Sims, the nice gamewinning qb sneak, the calm, poise, clutch gene etc. It's ridiculous to not be able to acknowledge this. Washington's organization was like 1 - 134 or something like that when trailing by 2 scores with 5 min left in a game. Isn't it phenomenal that Heinicke orchestrated that? We should appreciate the positive things. Especially with everything we've been through.

I tend to agree (but to each their own).  I do understand the “I don’t want to win ‘pointless’ games” crowd though.  It’s not how I operate, but I get it.  I could do without the hyperbolic criticism of Heinicke, or making him the butt of jokes, but… I disagree with you in that I think we absolutely know that he’s not the future.

 

@JumboMan, I’m glad I viewed your reply before I submitted!  Lol.  (Hope me editing his post as I did passes muster)

[mistertim]

24 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, I don’t think RR/the FO will be worried about going after a rookie.  Two years left on Ron’s deal, the support system (run game, defense and passing weapons) is pretty solid, though obviously they have to improve the oline.  A rookie might mean a drop-off in wins, but they could also provide some hope for the future.  They might balk at who’s available, or the cost to move up for a guy they like though… we’ll see.

 

Prior to the last couple of games, I assumed there was no way TH was returning, but I’ve changed my thinking.  I think he provides a baseline for Howell or a rookie.  They’d have to look pretty decent, including understanding the drops/timing/routes/reads w/in the offense, to beat him out.  And of course, he also provides an example of how to execute those things.

 

I’m with you on the vets.  Use the money elsewhere and roll with Howell or a rookie.  With that said, it wouldn’t shock me though if they go that direction (and use the 1st on an olineman).

 

I think with TH it mostly depends on what happens with Wentz. If they bring him back, I doubt Heinicke returns, unless Howell really blows. If they part ways with Wentz, they'll probably extend Heinicke as the backup and then either go after a FA QB, draft one in the 1st, or if we're lucky Howell looks good.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

 

[petey hodge]

2 hours ago, Jumbo said:

Be sure to note the guy above who just got a one week ban for the political comment.

 

 

 

that idiot is going to miss the extremeskins elation and chatter as we continue our win streak to four games.... what a dummy!

 

 

 

[JSSkinz]

15 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

I think they win the Lions game and Titans game,

We watched Taylor this week with 20 sec left in the game, 1st and goal. The same exact scenario Wentz was in against the Titans. Wentz looked a mess, almost through a pick on 1st down and eventually threw a pick to end the game.

 

Heine scored on 1st down.

 

Both games were score and win scenarios with 20 sec left. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 hours ago, petey hodge said:

 

that idiot is going to miss the extremeskins elation and chatter as we continue our win streak to four games.... what a dummy!

 

 

 

 

 

You've been nailing your posts lately lol...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

Keim ain't wrong lol...

 

 

[NoCalMike]

2 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

We watched Taylor this week with 20 sec left in the game, 1st and goal. The same exact scenario Wentz was in against the Titans. Wentz looked a mess, almost through a pick on 1st down and eventually threw a pick to end the game.

 

Heine scored on 1st down.

 

Both games were score and win scenarios with 20 sec left. 

 

It took 60 minutes to score 17 points.  The final 6 points coming on an underthrown ball that is likely an INT if McLaurin doesn't wrestle it way.  So you can be happy with the win and still have bigger perspective on what you are watching.   Does Heinicke make the throws that beat Jacksonville and/or The Bears?  I doubt it.   We can go back and forth all day about this, but I have said multiple times this isn't really a Wentz vs Heinicke debate any longer because the rest of the team itself has improved and is getting more healthy so it isn't a 1:1 ratio.

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

We watched Taylor this week with 20 sec left in the game, 1st and goal. The same exact scenario Wentz was in against the Titans. Wentz looked a mess, almost through a pick on 1st down and eventually threw a pick to end the game.

 

Heine scored on 1st down.

 

Both games were score and win scenarios with 20 sec left. 

I don't think they were quite the exact same situations. I believe against the Titans we were a few yards farther out, but the big thing also is we had a timeout left vs. the Colts while none against the Titans which completely changes playcalling options. If we had no timeouts against the Colts there is a good chance we don't call a QB sneak. With that said I will say Heinicke's mobility helps us out in those situations.

 

On the flip, I don't think Heinicke can make the throws to McLaurin and Dotson that Wentz made in the 4th quarter to win that game, so I guess it kinda balances out.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I decided I no longer have the energy to try and convince people they have literally no idea what the hell they are watching with TH.  If you can fall in love with a QB who, this year has played ~85 minutes of football as possibly the worst player in football, but you hang on to 35 minutes and some pretty good luck to prove they don't completely suck, that's your decision.  I'll trust my eyes that the VAST VAST VAST majority of the time TH has played the last 2 years, he has been dreadful.  If you want to think otherwise, fine.  Good on you.  I'm done trying to convince people otherwise.  

 

That said, I have no idea what's going to play out the rest of the way.  Beating Chicago, GB and Indy is being literally 8 points (combined) better than possibly the three worst teams in the NFL at the moment.  And I get Wentz played the Chicago game.  Where he was dreadful also.  We have enough dreadful to go around these days. 

 

So, we'll see how they fair the next 2 weeks against Minnesota and the Eagles.  It really all rests on one statistic, and it's the reason they beat a good Bucs team last year: converting 3rd downs.  They are going to play a conservative style of offense, because unlike a bunch of numb nuts who have literally no idea what they're looking at, Ron and Scott know that's the only way to win with TH playing QB.  Any other option will lead to disaster. Look up a few posts, Kiem has said the same thing.  Whether anybody else realizes it or not, they certainly do.  

 

The key to winning that way is defense and converting 3rd downs.  If they can play good defense and convert a high percentage of 3rd downs, it will work, and they could eek out another 17-15 type win.  

 

If they can't, they're going to get bum-rushed out of the stadium. 

 

So it comes down to this:  If they win one of the next 2 games, TH deserves to stay at QB until they are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.   Then it's Howell time. Or they go on some magical Tebow-esque run, and they make the playoffs, and then TH deserves a ton of credit, and they can work out what they want to do in the off-season.  

 

If they lose both of the next 2, then they need to go back to Wentz and see how he does behind a better OL than he had the last 3 times he was out there, and with more time to absorb the system.  If he plays like he did in the Jax, second half of Detroit and 59 minutes of the Tennessee game, they have some thinking to do in the off-season.  If he plays like he did in the first half of the Detroit game, Dallas, Eagles and last minute of the Titans game, then you've got your decision.

 

** Very key: they need to keep track of snaps:  Wentz has taken 422 snaps, TH currently has 135.  Right now, this is a 75/25 split.  Wentz will miss at least 2 more games.  We average 70 offense snaps a game.  So, assuming that holds, Wentz will have ~60% of total snaps, and TH will have 40% when he is eligible to return.  Unless Wentz comes back and they go on some remarkable run and make the playoffs, they need to make sure he doesn't have more than 70% of the total snaps. They have to protect that second round pick. Each game represents ~6% of the total snaps of the season.  So, that's basically slightly more than 5 games Wentz has to miss to guarantee he won't get to 70% of the total snaps.  

 

Regardless, when they are mathematically eliminated, they need to turn to Howell, and they should be preparing NOW for a package of plays he can run to get experience.  

 

My prediction is they will lose (badly) the next 2 games (Minnesota, @Philly), and Wentz will come back (because why not?  TH would be 2-2 with 2 bad losses), and then they will win the 2 after that (@Houston, vs. Atlanta). That really has nothing to do with QB.  I think if TH starts all 4 games, it would be the same, if Wentz starts all 4 games, it would be the same.  They are probably SLIGHTLY better than Houston and Atlanta, and MUCH worse than Minnesota and the Eagles. So, big shrug.  I think they will split the next 4 to be 6-6.  

 

That gets then to 6-6.  Then the entire season is really on the line in the next 2 games which are back to back with the Giants with the bye week sandwiched in between them.  . Win 2, they almost are assured a playoff spot (8-6, 2-3 in the division).  Lose 2, they are possibly mathematically eliminated (6-8 and 0-5 in the division).  Split, they are on life support probably needing to win out @49ers, vs. Cleveland (with Watson?), vs. Cowboys.

 

Unless they are 7-7 or better, Howell should play the last 3 games.  Even 6-8 with a glimmer of hope, you pull the plug and put Howell in. They have to protect the 2nd round pick.  And if you're sitting at 6-8, even if you're not mathematically eliminated, the chances are SO slim, you might as well bit the bullet and do the right thing for the future.  

 

My biggest fear is they lollygag through all of his, and somehow manage to miss the playoffs by a game AND have Wentz exceed 70% of snaps.  That would be the ultimate worst case scenario.  

 

  

[Voice_of_Reason]

29 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

It took 60 minutes to score 17 points.  The final 6 points coming on an underthrown ball that is likely an INT if McLaurin doesn't wrestle it way.  So you can be happy with the win and still have bigger perspective on what you are watching.   Does Heinicke make the throws that beat Jacksonville and/or The Bears?  I doubt it.   We can go back and forth all day about this, but I have said multiple times this isn't really a Wentz vs Heinicke debate any longer because the rest of the team itself has improved and is getting more healthy so it isn't a 1:1 ratio.

The OL for Detroit, Eagles and Dallas was Leno, Nowell, Martin, Turner, Cosmi.  In one of those games, the infamous picture of 2 Commander's OL blocking each other was taken.  It was some of the worst line play I've ever seen.  And I get that Wentz holds the ball a split second more, and is less mobile, and that's tough on an OL.  So, even if grading on a curve, it was STILL the worst OL play, because the interior guys were losing IMMEDIATELY.  Your QB shouldn't have to evade a rusher within 2 seconds, even if they can.  

 

Martin at center was a complete and total catastrophe.  He was rolling balls back to the QB, getting completely turned around, couldn't block air.  Turner was so bad, he got benched for Charles.  Norwell was so bad ... they couldn't do anything about it because they ran out of guards because Schweitzer got hurt also.  

 

Several things have happened in the last couple of weeks:

 

1.  Larsen came off of PUP and is a MUCH better center than Martin.  I don't think it can be over-stated how important that has been. 

2. Charles played "ok" at RG.  Better than Turner was playing.  Though Turner played better Sunday

3. Lucas seems to be playing better than Cosmi.  

 

The one advantage Wentz had TH didn't is Dotson played the early games, and hasn't played the last 2.  

 

When he had protection, Wentz was somewhere between good to very good.  When he didn't, he was somewhere between horrific and catastrophic.  

[SkinsNumberOne]

47 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

When he had protection, Wentz was somewhere between good to very good.  When he didn't, he was somewhere between horrific and catastrophic.  

 

Sacks and pressures are, by many, considered a QB statistic. Feeling the pocket, stepping up at the right times, releasing at the right times to the right players, keeping your cool; those are all key components of how your protection looks. Wentz looked really bad on all of those metrics. I'm not saying he couldn't improve with some time and some better OL play (but, I think most importantly, MORE RUNNING PLAYS CALLED), but I don't know if it's as simple as "he needs better protection."

[wit33]

1 hour ago, SkinsNumberOne said:

 

Sacks and pressures are, by many, considered a QB statistic. Feeling the pocket, stepping up at the right times, releasing at the right times to the right players, keeping your cool; those are all key components of how your protection looks. Wentz looked really bad on all of those metrics. I'm not saying he couldn't improve with some time and some better OL play (but, I think most importantly, MORE RUNNING PLAYS CALLED), but I don't know if it's as simple as "he needs better protection."

I would put this as my number 1 metric for QB… ability to feel and extend plays. If your QB doesn’t possess this you’re in competitive disadvantage versus the rest of the league. 
 

As most are out on Heineke due to arm strength is same reason I’m completely out on Wentz for a lack of pocket awareness. With what I’ve seen, I rather have Heinekes pocket awareness versus Wentzs arm strength. 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I would put this as my number 1 metric for QB… ability to feel and extend plays. If your QB doesn’t possess this you’re in competitive disadvantage versus the rest of the league. 
 

As most are out on Heineke due to arm strength is same reason I’m completely out on Wentz for a lack of pocket awareness. With what I’ve seen, I rather have Heinekes pocket awareness versus Wentzs arm strength. 

 

If you could merge both QBs, it would be perfect.

 

A.  Wentz's size and arm strength

 

B.  Heinicke's pocket presence, mobilty and clutch gene.

 

Neither IMO is the answer.  But moving forward I am more into keeping Heinicke as the backup -- perfect backup IMO than i am riding with Wentz. 

 

To add to my point, it's not that i am opposed to the idea that if you give Wentz uber protection you'd see a better version of him.  I got no doubt that's true.  But in today's NFL i don't want to place my bets on having the Hogs to protect my QB. 

 

The most damning hit on Wentz to me remains the Lions defenders saying Wentz is a statue in the pocket and much easier to defend than Hurts. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

perfect backup IMO

I must be the only person who thinks arguably the worst option in the league to be your back up. Hes a guy that cant run your offense and completely changes how you have to win games. Hes best as a guy who at a moments notice is plugged in and causes chaos. Maybe thats a back up for a game and then you have your 3rd string come in and still have Taylor as your back up. But as your starter when your QB1 is out? Hes absolutely terrible 

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If you could merge both QBs, it would be perfect.

 

A.  Wentz's size and arm strength

 

B.  Heinicke's pocket presence, mobilty and clutch gene.

 

Neither IMO is the answer.  But moving forward I am more into keeping Heinicke as the backup -- perfect backup IMO than i am riding with Wentz. 

 

To add to my point, it's not that i am opposed to the idea that if you give Wentz uber protection you'd see a better version of him.  I got no doubt that's true.  But in today's NFL i don't want to place my bets on having the Hogs to protect my QB. 

 

The most damning hit on Wentz to me remains the Lions defenders saying Wentz is a statue in the pocket and much easier to defend than Hurts. 

What if i told you… (and you know this but you set me up and when someone bumps and sets for me I have to spike)

 

Sam Howell is a merger of the two?! Aside from the height, but it would be boring if he had everything because he’d be the GOAT.

[wit33]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

I must be the only person who thinks arguably the worst option in the league to be your back up. 

Yes, you’re alone in this thought.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

I must be the only person who thinks arguably the worst option in the league to be your back up. Hes a guy that cant run your offense and completely changes how you have to win games. Hes best as a guy who at a moments notice is plugged in and causes chaos. Maybe thats a back up for a game and then you have your 3rd string come in and still have Taylor as your back up. But as your starter when your QB1 is out? Hes absolutely terrible 

 

Backup QBs are typically not good.

 

In that context, i like Heinicke a lot.  he's better IMO than Colt McCoy, your team doesn't fall off a cliff when he starts.

 

I am more in the anti-Heinicke hive though than the pro Heinicke Hive.

 

I don't really get the idea that he's the solution.  He doesn't have major league talent to be even an average QB in this league.  But if people want to get enamored with the dude -- great guy, teammates love him, moxie, clutch, etc.  i can dig that.

 

I am 100% sold he's not the solution.  But if people want to dig him as a backup, i totally get that.  He's an above average QB back up.

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

What if i told you… (and you know this but you set me up and when someone bumps and sets for me I have to spike)

 

Sam Howell is a merger of the two?! Aside from the height, but it would be boring if he had everything because he’d be the GOAT.

 

Look I had Howell as a high 2nd rounder in the top 100 submissions we made before the draft.  I had him and Corral back to back in my picks and you know i liked Corral.  I am VERY intrigued by Howell.  I'd love to see him before the season ends.  Howell has a decent size ceiling.  

[redskinss]

5 hours ago, JSSkinz said:

We watched Taylor this week with 20 sec left in the game, 1st and goal. The same exact scenario Wentz was in against the Titans. Wentz looked a mess, almost through a pick on 1st down and eventually threw a pick to end the game.

 

Heine scored on 1st down.

 

Both games were score and win scenarios with 20 sec left. 

Except heinicke had a timeout and Wentz didn't. 

Big difference. 

Not defending wentz, that pick was awful but not having a timeout was a major factor.

[88Comrade2000]

If Ron retires; then qb in 23 is a big question mark.

[SkinsFTW]

6 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

If Ron retires; then qb in 23 is a big question mark.

 

As if it wouldn't be otherwise.

[Zim489]

14 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

If Ron retires; then qb in 23 is a big question mark.

Its still a big question mark regardless. Theres no real viable answer. Its probably better if he retired cause that allows that next guy to go after a high ceiling guy instead of a high floor that ron will need. Someone like Anthony Richardson