The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 hours ago, Wyvern said:

 

It's 70% of the SNAPS, not games.  And, as I recall, the Heinicke-led offenses inched their way down the field, with lots of short plays, eating clock, but more importantly lots of snaps.  His arm wasn't strong enough for a 5-play drive involving a 55 yard gain leading to a score.

 

 

 

Uhhhh...

 

 

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

TH also puts a limited on the best part of the offense, the deep strike ability of the weapons.  
 

 

Hmm.  You really got me thinking about this.  Forget about Heinicke for a moment (I agree of course that his arm absolutely limits, or all but wipes out the long ball, which is key to Turner’s Coryell system)… is our deep game really the best part of our offense?  I suppose it depends on how you classify it.

 

McKissick, Gibson and Samuel I see as better in the short game - slightly different profiles from each of them, but pretty similar flavor/style, and Turner and Thomas are seemingly best in the intermediate areas.  Terry and Dotson strike me as all around guys.  Bates isn’t a deep guy.  I’m not so sure how to classify Milne and Sims, but something like mostly short-intermediate for the former and intermediate-deep for the latter.  And then of course there’s Dyami, who so far is purely a deep ball threat.

 

Of course, even if my opinion is that the strength of our weapons is the short-intermediate area, the big play threat can/does obviously open up the field (and we basically lose that with TH), and that includes impacting the ground game.  I guess my conclusion might be that I don’t think the deep strike ability is the best part of the O, but I can agree that it’s a pretty crucial element.

 

Makes me wonder whether we’d be better off with more of a West coast style offense - fits our weapons and, in theory, makes building/improving the oline a bit easier.  

 

@Califan007 The ConstipatedI know it’s not your point, but as a jumping off point - I actually trust TH on throws up to 20-25 yards... as long as they’re more touch passes.  Saying he can’t make throws past 10 yards is pretty darn ridiculous of course, but man, I wish he had the ability to stretch the field/D.

Edited October 16, 2022 by skinny21

[Califan007 The Constipated]

10 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Hmm.  You really got me thinking about this.  Forget about Heinicke for a moment (I agree of course that his arm absolutely limits, or all but wipes out the long ball, which is key to Turner’s Coryell system)… is our deep game really the best part of our offense?  I suppose it depends on how you classify it.

 

McKissick, Gibson and Samuel I see as better in the short game - slightly different profiles from each of them, but pretty similar flavor/style, and Turner and Thomas are seemingly best in the intermediate areas.  Terry and Dotson strike me as all around guys.  Bates isn’t a deep guy.  I’m not so sure how to classify Milne and Sims, but something like mostly short-intermediate for the former and intermediate-deep for the latter.  And then of course there’s Dyami, who so far is purely a deep ball threat.

 

Of course, even if my opinion is that the strength of our weapons is the short-intermediate area, the big play threat can/does obviously open up the field (and we basically lose that with TH), and that includes impacting the ground game.  I guess my conclusion might be that I don’t think the deep strike ability is the best part of the O, but I can agree that it’s a pretty crucial element.

 

Makes me wonder whether we’d be better off with more of a West coast style offense - fits our weapons and, in theory, makes building/improving the oline a bit easier.  

 

 

Definitely worth considering, I agree. It might be more accurate to say that deep strike ability is the best part of Wentz' game more so than the best part of our offense...longer developing pass plays don't necessarily mesh with an interior OLine that possesses the strength of a wet paper towel lol.

[Robbob]

24 minutes ago, stoshuaj said:

Who is the 3rd option after TH gets folded up like a lawn chair and SH gets ruined.?

 

just asking…..

Logan Thomas 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

15 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@Califan007 The ConstipatedI know it’s not your point, but as a jumping off point - I actually trust TH on throws up to 20-25 yards... as long as they’re more touch passes.  Saying he can’t make throws past 10 yards is pretty darn ridiculous of course, but man, I wish he had the ability to stretch the field/D.

 

Watching Wentz' throws downfield--even just 25-30 yards downfield--was like night and day compared to Heinicke. Unfortunately TH can't take advantage of our WRs' downfield speed so yeah it's gonna be frustrating seeing the offense more limited in that regard. I mean, seriously, it's gonna be ****ing irritating lol...

 

Hopefully Wentz isn't out more than maybe a week or two and Turner can earn his paycheck and design some game plans to maximize what Heinicke can actually do...because he CAN actually do enough to help the team win a game.

[Wyvern]

Califan --  nice pic to show Heinicke can throw a few medium-long passes , but as I recall he tended to be favor  the shorter "touch and impromptu" range of passes, and/or scrambling for a little bit of yardage.

 

Considering Heinicke relied more on touch than velocity... he'd probably try going long fewer times than Wentz.  I think Heinicke strength lies in succeeding in the short plays that sustain drives, at least better than Wentz was doing when it was 3rd and 5.  However, the lack of velocity could hurt him down in the red-zone.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

8 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Califan --  nice pic to show Heinicke can throw a few medium-long passes , but as I recall he tended to be favor  the shorter "touch and impromptu" range of passes, and/or scrambling for a little bit of yardage.

 

Considering Heinicke relied more on touch than velocity... he'd probably try going long fewer times than Wentz.  I think Heinicke strength lies in succeeding in the short plays that sustain drives, at least better than Wentz was doing when it was 3rd and 5.  However, the lack of velocity could hurt him down in the red-zone.

 

 

I was just showing that, in response to your comment about TH not having the arm to conduct a "5-play scoring drive involving a 55 yard gain," he had the arm to conduct a 2-play scoring drive involving a 56 yard gain lol...I don't really disagree with the other stuff you were saying.

[skinny21]

28 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Watching Wentz' throws downfield--even just 25-30 yards downfield--was like night and day compared to Heinicke. Unfortunately TH can't take advantage of our WRs' downfield speed so yeah it's gonna be frustrating seeing the offense more limited in that regard. I mean, seriously, it's gonna be ****ing irritating lol...

 

Hopefully Wentz isn't out more than maybe a week or two and Turner can earn his paycheck and design some game plans to maximize what Heinicke can actually do...because he CAN actually do enough to help the team win a game.

Yep, I hear you for sure.  Of course, since I know ahead of time Heinicke won’t stretch the field and won’t (successfully) gun throws into tight spaces, I don’t know how frustrated I’ll actually be.  Lower expectations and all that.  

 

And I’ll add that it can’t be too much more irritating than how the O has performed these past 4 games, right? (God, I hope not.  Though I could certainly see Heinicke getting demolished behind this line).

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Some of you guys take great offense when we laugh at the notion of winning with Heineke, as if we literally believe he’s not capable of playing QB in a game the team wins. 

I’d just like to clarify that I’m aware Taylor can win games.  That’s just the opposite of what’s healthy for this football team.  What Taylor cannot do, is win anywhere near enough games with this team to make the playoffs.

 

My worst fear is a few four alarm hair fire wins vs. the Colts, Falcons,etc. that do nothing but drop where this team selects in the draft.  Maybe worse is hearing about all the moxie and how if x, y, and z happened, we can with him and on and on from the Hive.  
 

Perhaps some of you are still into wanting to salvage the season in some way.  I am certain this team isn’t good enough with anyone on the roster at QB to be entertaining in January.  I’m resigned to the fact that thing is over already.  I also believe a disaster season can do nothing but help us in our quest to see Dan removed.  Just my 2 cents.

 

[Warhead36]

Just run a lot of gimmicky read option stuff with Heinicke. Try to keep Green Bay off guard.

[Jumbo]

22 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

 

@Jumbo are you going to survive this?  I’m not sure I can. 

 

 

 

 

I'll be fine. 

 

I think the discussion by many here of our qb room is mainly pathetic, to be sure.

 

Other than speculating on Howell,  everything else truly is ( at this point) endless blather  about differences and relative  minutiae that really don't matter.

 

Talk of a possible wentz rejuvenation was arguably far- fetched but not out of the realm of possibility, so those conversations had some sense to them. But it looks to me like that whimsical hope is dead.

 

ALL the th talk is just mindless blather over "points" that are just meaningless to anything that matters (i.e. this team actually becoming a winning franchise). But even smart posters will do it cuz it's a msg board and that's what we come here for---though some do it in a "not even smart" style.😛

 

Wentz seems like a good guy but whatever upside he had had seems to have gone into recession along with how our oc and line issues make it a mess for anyone at the position.

 

But my species (old school fan of this team, whatever they want to call it) is proficient at survival despite the most serious of circumstances and a near-hopeless outlook on the future.

 

Until Dan's gone, things like agonizing over the diff between the level of the qbs we have vs all the things we need to change to be in the mix to be a division winner and make playoff runs with decent frequency is pointless.

 

Nor does watching my team play inferior football via shuffling inferior qbs please me even if we win 5-8 games consistently.

 

And even if had drafted a burrow or Herbert this f.o. and whichever losers would be coaching it would most likely have stunted their development and will do so next year.

 

Go away Dan and take Tanya with you.

 

That last line is my take on the solution to the qb issues and every other issue with the team.

 

 

 

[stoshuaj]

2 hours ago, Robbob said:

Logan Thomas 

That was more of a shmarmy rhetorical question than anything but yeah, Mr Thomas will last less time then Moxie Man behind that line.

 

sooooo, you have a number 5 option in your back pocket?

 

Going to need the reincarnation of Billy Kilmer and his single bar face mask/bandaid across his nose toughness to survive this mess

Edited October 16, 2022 by stoshuaj

[ThomasRoane]

3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

 

Makes me wonder whether we’d be better off with more of a West coast style offense - fits our weapons and, in theory, makes building/improving the oline a bit easier.  

 

 

That's a good point.  If you can't stretch the field vertically you can get by stretching it horizontally.  McLaurin, Samuel, and Dotson (when healthy) are all burners who will go across the middle.  All three are good YAC players as well.  They are all good at finding holes in a zone too.  Howell has a good arm to get it there.  TH doesn't but does a good enough job of throwing a receiver open.  

 

I've been thinking about the Outside Zone stretch plays Turner has dialed up the last couple of games.  That could work well for TH or Howell.  You'd have the boot game and play action in play.  (Wentz was too damn slow)  I'd steal some Deboo like plays from Kyle Shanahan for Gibson; use him for jet sweeps and quick throws.  Keep Robinson as the lead back between the tackles.  (If you see six in the box then run it!)  Put Samuel out as a receiver; you can still throw him some quick screens.  Then have McLaurin and Dotson either go deep or run the deeper, intermediate crossers.  (The TEs have been a disappointment this year as an overall unit so you're not missing much.) 

 

I know Turner has his system but you have to be flexible and build an attack based on your personnel.  Classic Gibbs strategy that worked well enough to earn three Super Bowl trophies.  

[CapsSkins]

Hoping Lamar continues to have a terrible year, the Ravens don't pay him, and we sign him this summer!

[Wyvern]

3 hours ago, Jumbo said:

...Wentz seems like a good guy but whatever upside he had had seems to have gone into recession along with how our oc and line issues make it a mess for anyone at the position.

Jumbo, I liked your entire post -- but I really liked this section as it really boiled the whole issue down into one sentence.  THANK YOU!

[Llevron]

7 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Hoping Lamar continues to have a terrible year, the Ravens don't pay him, and we sign him this summer!

He would never sign here lol. Dude has a front row seat to this **** show. He knows. 

[Warhead36]

4 minutes ago, Llevron said:

He would never sign here lol. Dude has a front row seat to this **** show. He knows. 

Our money still spends

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Our money still spends

Why here though? He will probably have options in places that spend just as much and maybe even a few with less in taxes locally. Players are hip to that now. If you are speaking just money, we are still at a disadvantage. 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

Freakin' Bailey Zappe is lighting it up in like his second game. Put Sam Howell in Now. If he doesn't work, move on and keep trying until someone does. Forget this middle ground, trying to win with QBs who ain't it long-term kind of crap.

[tomwvr]

On 10/15/2022 at 2:40 PM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Just when we think the season can’t get more miserable, we have to listen to Heineke’s Camp(hair-on)fire stories.

 

@Jumbo are you going to survive this?  I’m not sure I can.  
 

All I’ve got to say is I don’t want to hear one excuse for when this offense isn’t night and day with him at the helm.  But that’s all we are going to hear.

 

”M0Ve dA p0cKeT”

”GiT hIm 0n Da RuN!”

 

 

 

 

I want to see taylor play no more than two games unless he has 10tds and no ints in these next two games.

why because we need to get a read on howell and howell hasnt even dressed for games, or run our offense in practice. Give him a week or two prep and put him in. 

[Hooper]

Season is all but over.

 

Start Taylor while we get Howell more reps in practice. When season is officially over, get him in. 

 

Wentz is who he is. Meaning not the answer. Just doesn't see things. 

 

 

[Darth Tater]

6 minutes ago, tomwvr said:

I want to see taylor play no more than two games unless he has 10tds and no ints in these next two games.

why because we need to get a read on howell and howell hasnt even dressed for games, or run our offense in practice. Give him a week or two prep and put him in. 

No, WE don't need to see Howell. Howell should only play if Rivera thinks he can do more than Taylor. If Rivera doesn't get to 10 wins (9 with a deep playoff run), he is gone anyway so as soon as the team knows that his minimums can't be achieved, then we need to move on and playing Howell is a dangerous option. The new coach will probably want his own QB and/or will have seen enough of Howell already if the new coach is any good.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

21 minutes ago, Professor_Nutter_Butter said:

Freakin' Bailey Zappe is lighting it up in like his second game. Put Sam Howell in Now. If he doesn't work, move on and keep trying until someone does. Forget this middle ground, trying to win with QBs who ain't it long-term kind of crap.

 

I think we should approach Howell the way Belichick approached both Brady and Zappe: kept both lower round QBs down on the depth chart (#4 and #3 respectively) and keep developing them until they either 1) proved themselves in practice to be worthy of the #2 spot, or 2) the QBs ahead of them are injured and he's more or less forced to start the young guy. He never started either QB just to "see what they've got" in him.

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

Our money still spends

 

Don't tell @Skinsinparadise that 

1 hour ago, Llevron said:

Why here though? He will probably have options in places that spend just as much and maybe even a few with less in taxes locally. Players are hip to that now. If you are speaking just money, we are still at a disadvantage. 

 

We'll pay him what he wants and not think twice about his ceiling, other teams will think twice just like Baltimore is doing. 

[CapsSkins]

And he won't have to sell his house!