The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[HigSkin]

RR on with Eisen talking about Wentz and their QB room

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by HigSkin

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

This is exactly why I call him the EPITOME of Kirk Cousins.

 

I think the Wentz narrative as I mentioned before is very similar to Kirk.  They are different players stylistically but the rap and angst about both is almost identical.  

 

Kirk's issue in short is that he hasn't been clutch and is inconsistent.  Simple as that.  For the non-elite guys like a Stafford, Carr, Kirk, Ryan, what i like to hang on is are they clutch?    Three of those 4 QBs are clutch. Kirk isn't one of them.

 

I said back when we were chasing Stafford that he will likely be a different type of QB with a different supporting cast because he's a good player and he makes big plays in big moments.  One big time WR alone doesn't make a QB or more on point make a team.   You need a full team.   Just like Terry doesn't offset the whole roster.   

 

Wentz/Kirk narratives are similar.  Matt Ryan doesn't have that similar of a narrative to Kirk.  Ryan is known for his leadership, consistency and clutch play.  I don't see much of a parallel. 

 

😀  I like Wentz but I don't get the idea that its Ryan and not Wentz who makes you think summarizes Kirk.

 

Wentz is soon to be 30 and he's not won a playoff game.  His reputation is he doesn't come through in big moments.   Some think neither dude connects to some in the locker room because they are uber religious PG type of personalities from the midwest and come off a bit aloof and different to some in the locker room.  And they are both streaky -- hot for some games, cold for others.  These guys reputation wise are practically joined at the hip twins.   But unlike some none of this bothers me.

 

I've defended Wentz a ton on this thread.  Even those who know him and like him, ala Chris Long, said he just presses sometimes in big spots.  But, I think you can teach players to chill and not press.  So i am not hung up on it. As for the locker room stuff, I think Wentz comes off as a nice enough guy and if he wins, I doubt players will care that much as to how much he's one of the guys so to speak.  As for his wild ups and downs, I think he can improve on that by reigning in his Yolo plays. 

 

He and Kirk play very differently but the results are similar in that they go on hot and cold streaks like Tony Romo would and Romo also was a different brand of player so inconsistency comes in all sizes.   And my take is even if that can't be fixed, I'd take Wentz's highs over anything we've had here for years.  So on the aggregate I am jazzed to see it unfold. 

 

And the fact that most of the local and national media think this team made the boneheaded trade of the off season will make it feel even sweeter if Wentz kills it. 

 

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 I was never impressed just like I wasn't impressed with Stafford

.

 

Seems like that point comes across like you feel vindicated about Stafford.  Stafford just won a SB and was SB MVP.

 

I know from other posts you like to push for the underdogs dudes like Nick Mullens, Case Keenum, Haskins back in the dat and dudes like that who you feel are underappreciated and are better than people think.  So Wentz does fall in that kind of category.   And I agree he's better than people think so I am with you on that point.  

 

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

I'm not saying that Wentz is better than Ryan, just that they're in the same tier. With Ryan on the decline and Wentz (hopefully) still in his prime.

 

At this given time, that's probably true.  Throughout their career they aren't IMO even in the same conversation. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FootballZombie]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

Matt Ryan is doing more, so by definition he should have better stats like yards and yards per game.

 

I only said Wentz had substantially less responsibilities while a member of the Colts. That is not an excuse to ignore his getting gobsmacked in his time w/ Philly over stats like passing yards vs Ryan.

 

Passing yards

Ryan    3968 4581 4466 4924 4095

Wentz  3563 2620 4039 3074 3296

 

Comp %

Ryan    67    65     66.2  69.4 64.7

Wentz  62.4 57.4  63.9  69.6  60.2

 

Yds/gm

Ryan   233 286 287 307 255

Wentz 209 218 252 279 253

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by FootballZombie

[wit33]

25 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

RR on with Eisen talking about Wentz and their QB room

 

 

Come on Ron, have a little ammo to back up the Wentz deal than tweets made by players AFTER you made the trade.  
 

Obviously not a huge deal lol, but give us a little more depth and nuance for making the move. 
 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

16 hours ago, wit33 said:

Come on Ron, have a little ammo to back up the Wentz deal than tweets made by players AFTER you made the trade.  
 

Obviously not a huge deal lol, but give us a little more depth and nuance for making the move. 
 

 

 

Yeah agree, I don't get why he almost always leads with three Colts players sent nice tweets about Wentz.   Feels like fluff.

 

At times he explains it better about being able to threaten defenses on all three levels.

 

I don't know this for sure, its just a guess on my end.  That is, they were under some pressure to make a splash this off season with the new name and declining attendance/TV viewing, etc.  I think they were genuinely excited about landing Wentz.  I think they were stunned that not only didn't they get a PR hit but instead were almost universally trashed for the trade. 

 

So Rivera talks up Wentz specifically to the criticism that is leveled on Wentz and one of those things is that he's a bad leader.  So Rivera goes right after that point.  But it comes off a bit shallow and defensive.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

47 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I said back when we were chasing Stafford that he will likely be a different type of QB with a different supporting cast because he's a good player and he makes big plays in big moments.  One big time WR alone doesn't make a QB or more on point make a team.   You need a full team.   Just like Terry doesn't offset the whole roster.   

 

Wentz/Kirk narratives are similar.  Matt Ryan doesn't have that similar of a narrative to Kirk.  Ryan is known for his leadership, consistency and clutch play.  I don't see much of a parallel. 

I'll give you this one. I'm not as studious on any of these guys. I just have never really been a fan. I honestly thought that Wentz had more comebacks in his career, and didn't know that Ryan had as many as he had. But I hated his nickname Matty Ice when he was 0-4 his first 4 years in the playoffs. That's the thing I remember the most about him, and he never got the criticism that Andy Dalton or Tony Romo got. But I just don't see there being this big gap. and looking at the numbers Ill stay with that. But he (Wentz) does need to produce this year. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

This is the stuff, I am sure drives Ron crazy, that makes him crazy on the Wentz stuff where in turn he acts defensive.  The idea that the Eagles are better off for dumping Wentz and the Commanders are the suckers dealing with Wentz now.

 

Should be really interesting to see who comes out on top.  Roseman is IMO the best wheeler dealer in the NFL.   Bruce and Cerrato IMO are some of the biggest negotiator dolts that this sport has even seen -- driven by the dumbest owner in sports.  Roseman knows how to get value in trades -- elite at that IMO -- thankfully he's just mediocre at using that draft capital.

 

But I've seen a lot of love to the Eagles post draft, some saying they've now usurped Dallas, will see.  At a minimum it will make the matchup this year versus the Eagles very interesting.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

duplicate post

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

My opinion:

 

Ryan is better than Wentz right now.

 

Wentz is more valuable because if he turns it around he’s younger and has a future where Ryan’s future is now.

 

For us, we wound up with the better long term option. If Howell turns out and he’s the guy they keep but Wentz is good Wentz WILL get us good assets in return. If Wentz just kicks ass and Howell never gets a chance maybe Howell brings in a small return. Or maybe Wentz just kicks ass and Howell doesn’t bring anything (unlikely, Howell is the best in the world). We have him for the foreseeable future.

 

That has value. 
 

If Wentz doesn’t work it was a flyer.

 

Ryan would have given us a better floor for this year but no real future beyond the next few years. But it’s hard to argue that he’s not a better quarterback than Wentz based on the last few years.
 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by KDawg

[Skinsinparadise]

39 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'll give you this one. I'm not as studious on any of these guys. I just have never really been a fan. I honestly thought that Wentz had more comebacks in his career, and didn't know that Ryan had as many as he had. But I hated his nickname Matty Ice when he was 0-4 his first 4 years in the playoffs. That's the thing I remember the most about him, and he never got the criticism that Andy Dalton or Tony Romo got. But I just don't see there being this big gap. and looking at the numbers Ill stay with that. But he (Wentz) does need to produce this year. 

 

 

You seem focused on Ryan's worst season and it was his worst by a large margin for the last 11 years and want to define him based on that.  Granted it could be relevant because maybe that's the "new Matt Ryan" as he ages.  Wentz's worst season (2020) is much worse than Ryan's season last year.

 

As for Wentz, listening to his friends and foes in different interviews and a ton of reporters who covered him -- the common ground is can he be counted on in big spots?   He has the reputation of pressing too much albeit years ago he did have a good season on that front so IMO he has it in him to overcome this.  The other is he's very streaky.  Great game or two, then a really bad one.  And you get extreme ups and downs sometimes in the same game.

 

The good thing is he comes off like a nice guy even if he's not considered a leader by all. Really freaky talent.  Rocket arm.  And smart.  And some who know him say coming to DC might be the best thing for him because he's out of his comfort zone and might give him a needed jolt to find his old groove ala sort of a Rocky 3 kind of narrative.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[HigSkin]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

Come on Ron, have a little ammo to back up the Wentz deal than tweets made by players AFTER you made the trade.  
 

Obviously not a huge deal lol, but give us a little more depth and nuance for making the move. 
 

 

 

Could be he's just tired of answering the same questions about Wentz or simple just tired and not very sharp.....LOL

[madden lot]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Stafford just won a SB and was SB MVP.

Cooper Kupp was SB MVP.

 

 

[sjinhan]

3 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I only said Wentz had substantially less responsibilities while a member of the Colts. That is not an excuse to ignore his getting gobsmacked in his time w/ Philly over stats like passing yards vs Ryan.

 

Passing yards

Ryan    3968 4581 4466 4924 4095

Wentz  3563 2620 4039 3074 3296

 

Comp %

Ryan    67    65     66.2  69.4 64.7

Wentz  62.4 57.4  63.9  69.6  60.2

 

Yds/gm

Ryan   233 286 287 307 255

Wentz 209 218 252 279 253

 

 

 

 

Probably we can go forever with stats and circumstances but if we were to stay positive on Wentz as fan base then you put those numbers in context with what WRs, TEs, RBs they were throwing in those years.

[TheShredder]

10 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

If it were for nothing, side by side, I'd take Wentz over Ryan. I've never been much of a fan of Ryan and I have been of Wentz.

 

Amazing how we went from a weakness and absolute gapping hole of a QB room, to a positive strength. I know there are questions, but Wentz, Heini and Howell is a good looking QB room.

Never liked either one. Both QB's always seemed to drop miracle bombs on us. Wentz has to deliver some of that to PHI

and balance out the scales in my book before I can forgive his sins!

Ryan aint no Brady. ATL sold that ride just before it blows a gasket.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, madden lot said:

 

 

you're right but it doesn't do anything to the point I was making which is to respond to the person saying hey he wasn't into Stafford as if the season he just had shows that they were justfied into not thinking he's good.  For the Stafford doubters, last season didn't help them prove they were right.  He just won a SB and had a good season. 

 

https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2022/01/30/rams-matthew-stafford-lions-wins-stat-career/

It’s almost as if Stafford wasn’t the problem in Detroit as some have made him out to be. He’s been plenty successful with the Rams, showing what he can do when he has a quality supporting cast around him.

[DWinzit]

Stafford>Ryan>Wentz

 

Stafford was not obtainable

 

Ryan probably only has a good year or two in the tank.

 

Pushing talent aside for a moment, Ryan is a born leader.

 

If Wentz does the right things in the locker room and play consistent, he is a great option over Ryan for the future of Washington

 

The way I see Howell is worst case....he is a really solid 4 year backup to Wentz.  I guess that wouldn't be worse case if it means Wentz proves a solid starter for the next 5+ years!

[Warhead36]

Stafford is/was legitimately elite but stuck on an absolute dog doo doo franchise. Anyone who doubted him doesnt know football.

[mistertim]

47 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Stafford is/was legitimately elite but stuck on an absolute dog doo doo franchise. Anyone who doubted him doesnt know football.

 

Can you imagine if Stafford and Megatron had been on the same team under a quality franchise? That would have been nuts.

[LD0506]

IMO the most important thing that will decide how well Wentz plays is the protection from the O line. There is a lot of anticipation/coordination between QB and O line that comes with practice, repetition and chemistry. I admit to having no idea whether or not they will be able to build this. I think trying to make predictions in a vacuum vis-a-vis Wentz vs Ryan vs Stafford vs Wile E. Coyote is kinda silly. We're seeing substantial turnover on the line, really unsure how that's gonna play out.

[HigSkin]

 

[Thinking Skins]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

you're right but it doesn't do anything to the point I was making which is to respond to the person saying hey he wasn't into Stafford as if the season he just had shows that they were justfied into not thinking he's good.  For the Stafford doubters, last season didn't help them prove they were right.  He just won a SB and had a good season. 

 

https://theramswire.usatoday.com/2022/01/30/rams-matthew-stafford-lions-wins-stat-career/

It’s almost as if Stafford wasn’t the problem in Detroit as some have made him out to be. He’s been plenty successful with the Rams, showing what he can do when he has a quality supporting cast around him.

Stafford just won a SB on one of the most loaded teams ever so yeah I'm still not high on him. Right now I'm stuck in cement on that opinion. Maybe he can get me out of it but it will take a lot more to break me out. 

[veteranskinsfan]

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think the Wentz narrative as I mentioned before is very similar to Kirk.  They are different players stylistically but the rap and angst about both is almost identical.  

 

Kirk's issue in short is that he hasn't been clutch and is inconsistent.  Simple as that.  For the non-elite guys like a Stafford, Carr, Kirk, Ryan, what i like to hang on is are they clutch?    Three of those 4 QBs are clutch. Kirk isn't one of them.

 

I said back when we were chasing Stafford that he will likely be a different type of QB with a different supporting cast because he's a good player and he makes big plays in big moments.  One big time WR alone doesn't make a QB or more on point make a team.   You need a full team.   Just like Terry doesn't offset the whole roster.   

 

Wentz/Kirk narratives are similar.  Matt Ryan doesn't have that similar of a narrative to Kirk.  Ryan is known for his leadership, consistency and clutch play.  I don't see much of a parallel. 

 

😀  I like Wentz but I don't get the idea that its Ryan and not Wentz who makes you think summarizes Kirk.

 

Wentz is soon to be 30 and he's not won a playoff game.  His reputation is he doesn't come through in big moments.   Some think neither dude connects to some in the locker room because they are uber religious PG type of personalities from the midwest and come off a bit aloof and different to some in the locker room.  And they are both streaky -- hot for some games, cold for others.  These guys reputation wise are practically joined at the hip twins.   But unlike some none of this bothers me.

 

I've defended Wentz a ton on this thread.  Even those who know him and like him, ala Chris Long, said he just presses sometimes in big spots.  But, I think you can teach players to chill and not press.  So i am not hung up on it. As for the locker room stuff, I think Wentz comes off as a nice enough guy and if he wins, I doubt players will care that much as to how much he's one of the guys so to speak.  As for his wild ups and downs, I think he can improve on that by reigning in his Yolo plays. 

 

He and Kirk play very differently but the results are similar in that they go on hot and cold streaks like Tony Romo would and Romo also was a different brand of player so inconsistency comes in all sizes.   And my take is even if that can't be fixed, I'd take Wentz's highs over anything we've had here for years.  So on the aggregate I am jazzed to see it unfold. 

 

And the fact that most of the local and national media think this team made the boneheaded trade of the off season will make it feel even sweeter if Wentz kills it. 

 

.

 

Seems like that point comes across like you feel vindicated about Stafford.  Stafford just won a SB and was SB MVP.

 

I know from other posts you like to push for the underdogs dudes like Nick Mullens, Case Keenum, Haskins back in the dat and dudes like that who you feel are underappreciated and are better than people think.  So Wentz does fall in that kind of category.   And I agree he's better than people think so I am with you on that point.  

 

 

At this given time, that's probably true.  Throughout their career they aren't IMO even in the same conversation. 

I remember a long time ago that Cousins got help by seeing a psychologist who helped him address pressure moments in games and how to deal with his mind in critical situations.  I wonder if Wentz has tried talking to a sports psychologist before each season starts.

[Skinsinparadise]

50 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Stafford just won a SB on one of the most loaded teams ever so yeah I'm still not high on him. Right now I'm stuck in cement on that opinion. Maybe he can get me out of it but it will take a lot more to break me out. 

 

I mean it in good spirts but knowing some of the QBs you've been high on, you love the underdog types, it doesn't bother me that you aren't sold on Stafford -- ditto the thought that a SB win apparently doesn't prove that he's a winner with the right supporting cast. 😀

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, veteranskinsfan said:

I remember a long time ago that Cousins got help by seeing a psychologist who helped him address pressure moments in games and how to deal with his mind in critical situations.  I wonder if Wentz has tried talking to a sports psychologist before each season starts.

 

I read a good sports psychology article once about players who play well in big spots versus others who don't.  They dissected among other things, Alex Rodriguez versus Derek Jeter.   And the main thesis is some players relax and lock in during big spots.  Some players do the opposite, they focus on the enormity of the situation and press because they want to deliver so bad.   So the thesis was teaching players to forget about the importance of the situation and just lock in.

 

Some old teammates of Wentz among others talked about him pressing in big spots.  And I'd bet money when Irsay got some bad feedback from some players in the mix after the season apparently about Wentz some of it likely was about that.  I forgot which Indy reporter said it but he explained that Wentz with rare exceptions didn't make big throws in big spots in games and that was coloring the season as it went on even though his overall numbers were good -- I recall he said there were two exceptions as for games on that front -- and he added them losing the last two games with the playoffs on the line doubled down the perception that Wentz is more of a dude who plays better when the stakes aren't at the highest.

 

I haven't really dug deeper on this but its a tough narrative for me to ignore because i've heard this said by even people who are his friends in different interviews.  In addition, I forgot which talking head, maybe it was Simms, who pushed Wentz and liked the deal but also gave the warning of he needs to show he can come through in big spots.  I believe Orlovsky said something similar.

 

At a minimum, Wentz not being clutch is definitiely a narrative that people use to dog him.  But considering how compeititve he is, i hope he takes that criticism to heart and has a show the world type of season.   And I believe he had one really good season in philly where he was clutch so I gather he has it in him. 

[HigSkin]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

At a minimum, Wentz not being clutch is definitiely a narrative that people use to dog him.  But considering how compeititve he is, i hope he takes that criticism to heart and has a show the world type of season.   And I believe he had one really good season in philly where he was clutch so I gather he has it in him. 

 

I really think he will because he doesn't have the excuses ref Pederson/Eagles and then being with Reich, the OC that helped craft his best season.

 

I have noticed that RR is really defending him so there's that and RR is crafty at reading/handling his players.

 

In fact, somebody should rename the thread to "redevelopment" of Commander Carson.  LOL

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by HigSkin