The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FootballZombie]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

I woulda chose that disaster of a brand rollout, (it will haunt my nightmares forever) but if we are sticking to more football adjacent topics, what else could they have picked?

 

-A complaint about drafting someone different?

-Mclauren has not gone anywhere, so not paying him yet is not as impactful

-Cutting Io and letting Settle go?

[MrJL]

29 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I woulda chose that disaster of a brand rollout, (it will haunt my nightmares forever) but if we are sticking to more football adjacent topics, what else could they have picked?

 

-A complaint about drafting someone different?

-Mclauren has not gone anywhere, so not paying him yet is not as impactful

-Cutting Io and letting Settle go?

 

well the way things have rolled out we could have waited, drafted Howell and then possibly tried to trade for Mayfield

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, MrJL said:

 

well the way things have rolled out we could have waited, drafted Howell and then possibly tried to trade for Mayfield

The value of hindsight. We'd have drafted Howell probably in the 2nd and he'd be right in the spotlight and we'd have a legit 3 way QB comp that Heini would probably win. Instead, solid starter, 5th rounder getting no pressure to sit and a good back up.

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

The value of hindsight. We'd have drafted Howell probably in the 2nd and he'd be right in the spotlight and we'd have a legit 3 way QB comp that Heini would probably win. Instead, solid starter, 5th rounder getting no pressure to sit and a good back up.

 

That and the last thing you wanted was Z man getting all excited about TH starting again.

 

[Koolblue13]

46 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

That and the last thing you wanted was Z man getting all excited about TH starting again.

 

You'd be unbearable if we were looking down that barrel. 

[SkinsFTW]

10 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Group 1: (no real order)

- Mahomes

- Josh Allen

- Burrow

- Rodgers

- Justin Herbert

- Tom Brady

- Lamar Jackson

- Russell WIlson

- Matt Ryan

- Derrick Carr

- Justin Herbert

- Ryan Tannehill

- Kyler Murray

- Dak

- Jimmy G.

- Carson Wentz

- Kirk Cousins

- Matt Stafford

 

(That's 18, so one more than my theory.)

 

 

It's only 18 because you counted Herbert twice. He's pretty good, but not that good!

[TysonM]

19 hours ago, Conn said:

Um I would expect it’s just because he’s an elite young QB who hasn’t even reached his ceiling yet.

[in reference to why Herbert is ranked so high]

 

I made a failed sarcastic joke about those who act as if hindsight is freely available before the fact, and complain about it now they have that hindsight after the fact.  I guess I should have added the sarcasm tag after all.

[Conn]

5 hours ago, TysonM said:

[in reference to why Herbert is ranked so high]

 

I made a failed sarcastic joke about those who act as if hindsight is freely available before the fact, and complain about it now they have that hindsight after the fact.  I guess I should have added the sarcasm tag after all.

I alluded to that at the end of my post lol, saying you sounded like someone who has had frustrating conversations with people who insist it would have made sense to draft him over Young at the time 

[Mrshadow008]

30 minutes ago, Conn said:

I alluded to that at the end of my post lol, saying you sounded like someone who has had frustrating conversations with people who insist it would have made sense to draft him over Young at the time 

Ron even said that the pick was always going to be Young or Burrow. The plan was always they were going to take whichever one the Bengals didn’t pick. The convo in the media and most fans at the time didn’t even include Herbert for us. The question was do you take Young or Tua. They never even considered Tua because of concerns around his hip. 

[TheShredder]

Carolina is looking to trade for Baker Mayfield.

Taylor Heinicke's numbers were actually better than Mayfield.

Why pay Mayfield almost 19M when you could get the same production for 2M...

Wonder if there wasn't some talk about trading Heinicke?

[Commander Wolffe]

Doubt it. Heinicke is extremely familiar with this scheme. His moxie, mobility, and competitiveness in this scheme makes up for his lack of physical attributes. I don't think he would be as attractive to other teams given the lack of raw tools and learning a new scheme which could highlight those deficiencies.

 

~Wolffe 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Commander Wolffe

[Bunny Kelly]

It feels like 10/15 years later we finally got Jay Cutler, definite talent but inconsistent, definitely media scapegoat for reasons other than performances on the field.

 

I suppose the question is would you take a 29 Jay Cutler for this team & at the price we paid for Wentz? Obviously a gamble but given or history of QBs since that failed trade I certainly would

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 6/18/2022 at 12:02 AM, SkinsFTW said:

 

It's only 18 because you counted Herbert twice. He's pretty good, but not that good!

Edited to remove the travesty.  

[Thinking Skins]

23 hours ago, Mrshadow008 said:

Ron even said that the pick was always going to be Young or Burrow. The plan was always they were going to take whichever one the Bengals didn’t pick. The convo in the media and most fans at the time didn’t even include Herbert for us. The question was do you take Young or Tua. They never even considered Tua because of concerns around his hip. 

This is not quite a restatement of fact. SOme of us (me included) wanted to explore the options of trading down. The buzz on Simmons was great and people like Fred Smoot were saying that  he would be a LT type generational talent who could change how defense is played. The idea of having that kind of talent on defense and trading down was appealing. But it wasn't a big argument because Chase had such a backing, but the discussion was there. Maybe not for Herbert but there were discussions

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Carolina is looking to trade for Baker Mayfield.

Taylor Heinicke's numbers were actually better than Mayfield.

Why pay Mayfield almost 19M when you could get the same production for 2M...

Wonder if there wasn't some talk about trading Heinicke?

The issue is the Browns need to find somebody to take Mayfield.  It won't be us.  So before they could consider bringing in TH, first they need to jettison Baker to a team that will take his salary.

 

If I was the Seahawks, I might do that for a 7th.  I don't think the Panthers have the cap room to do it.  I don't mind over-paying Baker on a 1 year rental assuming you're giving up almost nothing in order to get him.  

 

In fact, the Browns might have to throw something in to sweeten the deal.  Or maybe just send him for nothing. Has that ever happened?  "Here, you take Baker and his contract and we'll call it even.  We don't want anything back in return."  I'd do that if I was Seattle.

 

Once Baker was jettisoned, then maybe the Browns would consider another QB option.

 

Though, there's really no way we're trading TH.  He's a security blanket for Turner, he did his job last season, and he knows the playbook.  I don't think the team wants to bet on Howell learning the playbook and being a play away from having to start the entire season, just like TH was last year.  

 

God Willing, Wentz plays the entire season, but if he lasts 16 snaps like Fitz did last season, you want TH there to start a few games while you continue to get Howell ready 

[formerly4skins]

3 hours ago, Bunny Kelly said:

I suppose the question is would you take a 29 Jay Cutler for this team & at the price we paid for Wentz?

 

As I remember, Cutler ended up costing 2 1sts, which is insane.

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, Bunny Kelly said:

It feels like 10/15 years later we finally got Jay Cutler, definite talent but inconsistent, definitely media scapegoat for reasons other than performances on the field.

 

I suppose the question is would you take a 29 Jay Cutler for this team & at the price we paid for Wentz? Obviously a gamble but given or history of QBs since that failed trade I certainly would

The difference is Vinny was trying to trade 2 firsts for Jay, and we traded (most likely) a 3rd and a 2nd for Wentz.

 

That said, if we had traded for Cutler we would have been better than we were.  If somehow we would have traded for Cutler in 2009 and then hired Shanahan in 2010, that would have been interesting because Cutler played for Jay with the Broncos.  

 

Though, Cutler probably would have made Zorn look like less of an idiot.  Having said that, Dan had coveted Shanahan for years, and if he had Cutler already, and could get Mike, he might have fired Zorn no matter what, just like he fired Marty to get Spurrier. 

 

History would have been very different if we had landed Cutler.  Because he was one of those guys who deserved a starting job in the NFL.   Unlike Jason Campbell and a whole lot of guys who came after him. 

 

I do find it ironic the reason the Broncos chose the Bears over the 'Skins was because they preferred Kyle Orton to Jason Campbell.  Shanahan wasn't with the Broncos when that decisions was made, for what it's worth. 

14 minutes ago, formerly4skins said:

 

As I remember, Cutler ended up costing 2 1sts, which is insane.

It was ahead of it's time, but Cutler was a legitimate starting QB, and those are rare.  2 firsts isn't unreasonable for a legitimate starting QB.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

I'm moving one part of @Skinsinparadise's breakdown of something Logan Paulsen said in the "OTA" thread here, because it's specific to Wentz: (As always, thanks for the write up.)

 

Quote

C.  Wentz looked really sharp until minicamp.  In minicamp Del Rio brought the pressure on Wentz and Wentz to Paulsen's eyes lost some confidence, accuracy wasn't hot, saw pressure before it was there, started to roll in the pocket without pressure, etc.  He said that was his red flag when watching Wentz's Colts tape so to keep an eye on that.

 

I don't know for sure, but I would generally think this would be true for most QBs learning a new system.  When the defense is vanilla, and they have more time, they are able to process things more easily.

 

When the coverages get more "exotic" and there is more pressure, their lack of experience in the system shows more.  This is doubly true with Wentz because he's never been known as a great QB under pressure, knowing where his dump-offs are, when a play is dead.  That hasn't been his thing, so it's worth keeping an eye on.

 

So on the scale of "absolutely nothing", "not a lot, but something," "Something", "Something Important" and "HUGE DEAL" I think this ranks somewhere around "not a lot, but something."  

 

I also think it's good that they started bringing more pressure in mini-camp, so Wentz has that experience in this offense.  

 

And I hope they throw the kitchen sink at him in training camp.  

 

And understanding what pre-season is all about, and defenses are typically vanilla anyway, I do think getting him some significant reps in pre-season is important.  Let him get the reps in live action, with a defense he's not used to seeing.  I doubt this happens, and I understand why, but at the same time, I'd like to see it.

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I'm moving one part of @Skinsinparadise's breakdown of something Logan Paulsen said in the "OTA" thread here, because it's specific to Wentz: (As always, thanks for the write up.)

 

 

I don't know for sure, but I would generally think this would be true for most QBs learning a new system.  When the defense is vanilla, and they have more time, they are able to process things more easily.

 

When the coverages get more "exotic" and there is more pressure, their lack of experience in the system shows more.  This is doubly true with Wentz because he's never been known as a great QB under pressure, knowing where his dump-offs are, when a play is dead.  That hasn't been his thing, so it's worth keeping an eye on.

 

So on the scale of "absolutely nothing", "not a lot, but something," "Something", "Something Important" and "HUGE DEAL" I think this ranks somewhere around "not a lot, but something."  

 

I also think it's good that they started bringing more pressure in mini-camp, so Wentz has that experience in this offense.  

 

And I hope they throw the kitchen sink at him in training camp.  

 

And understanding what pre-season is all about, and defenses are typically vanilla anyway, I do think getting him some significant reps in pre-season is important.  Let him get the reps in live action, with a defense he's not used to seeing.  I doubt this happens, and I understand why, but at the same time, I'd like to see it.

 

 

I agree that its good that that they are bringing on pressure.  The impression I get listening to podcasts all off season from all of these guys is wow Wentz looked very sharp until the minicamp where he didn't look sharp at all and some of them are taken aback by that. 

 

For me, as I've stated here.  While I like the deal for Wentz, I think I am staying medium about it.    Digesting Wentz, he's a high variance player, i think if we don't accept that we likely end up dissappointed.  He doesn't have pinpoint accuracy.  For example, the Colts brass raving about Ryan's accuracy -- which they imply comes off in context of Wentz.  I do think the Ryan hype is way over the top but I do think overall Ryan throws a more accurate and catchable ball than Wentz.  Wentz's thing is something different from Ryan and that is getting the ball down the field and making plays off script. 

 

To use a baseball analogy, Wentz throws the ball 95 miles an hour but has starts where he's a bit wild and gets rocked.  It comes with the turf.   So maybe Wentz's down practice days had something to do with the pressure he dealt with.  Or it could have just been a wild day or two that happened to take place at minicamp.

 

Judging by his game to game stats, he will have give or take 4-5 really stinkers of games in the mix.  But as long as he piles more good than bad, that's the bottom line.  And I expect he will. 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[veteranskinsfan]

I am on the opposite side of the coin with Wentz.  I think those 4-5 games where he has stinkers games will drive myself and the fan base nuts.  I think after this season

we go out looking again for the quarterback who can put this franchise on his shoulders.  Meanwhile, I can enjoy the Golden State Warriors Championship season

with Steph Curry putting the Warriors franchise on his back and leading them to victory.

[mistertim]

12 hours ago, TheShredder said:

Carolina is looking to trade for Baker Mayfield.

Taylor Heinicke's numbers were actually better than Mayfield.

Why pay Mayfield almost 19M when you could get the same production for 2M...

Wonder if there wasn't some talk about trading Heinicke?

 

Nobody is going to give up anything for Heinicke.

 

The Browns are having trouble moving Mayfield and he's basically a bigger and more talented Heinicke with an NFL arm.

 

If they can't find a trade partner for him then there's no way anyone is trading for TH.

 

We might be able to get a 6th or 7th for him. IMO he's more valuable to us as a decent backup than that 6th round pick.

Edited June 19, 2022 by mistertim

[Commander Wolffe]

Agreed. Heinicke probably has another year maybe two with us. The only caveat I could foresee is if Scott Turner lands a head coaching position and brings him along to be the veteran for that qb room. (Still a backup)

 

Obviously that would mean our offense kicked ass this year and we make a deep playoff run. Even then it would probably highlight the importance of the ability to push the ball downfield more than anything.

 

~Wolffe 

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 minutes ago, Commander Wolffe said:

Agreed. Heinicke probably has another year maybe two with us.

One.  This is the last year of his deal and unless Howell completely craps the bed in practice and pre-season, he’s the backup next year and TH will be looking for work.  

[Thinking Skins]

4 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

The issue is the Browns need to find somebody to take Mayfield.  It won't be us.  So before they could consider bringing in TH, first they need to jettison Baker to a team that will take his salary.

 

If I was the Seahawks, I might do that for a 7th.  I don't think the Panthers have the cap room to do it.  I don't mind over-paying Baker on a 1 year rental assuming you're giving up almost nothing in order to get him.  

 

In fact, the Browns might have to throw something in to sweeten the deal.  Or maybe just send him for nothing. Has that ever happened?  "Here, you take Baker and his contract and we'll call it even.  We don't want anything back in return."  I'd do that if I was Seattle.

 

Once Baker was jettisoned, then maybe the Browns would consider another QB option.

 

Though, there's really no way we're trading TH.  He's a security blanket for Turner, he did his job last season, and he knows the playbook.  I don't think the team wants to bet on Howell learning the playbook and being a play away from having to start the entire season, just like TH was last year.  

 

God Willing, Wentz plays the entire season, but if he lasts 16 snaps like Fitz did last season, you want TH there to start a few games while you continue to get Howell ready 

I have a strong feeling that Heinicke will be like Rex was to Kyle and Colt to Jay. Not the perfect QB, but they're favorites to be a  backup and come in in garbage time to secure a win. 

[Koolblue13]

With the running game we want to have, I'm not too worried about Wentz being inconsistent. If he has to get kid gloved like Heini during our little winning streak and we just run the ball, it'll work. Also having Bates and Turner, maybe Thomas around should help. I'd imagine we'd see more Cam in those game, too.