The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[DWinzit]

10 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I would absolutely not trade multiple firsts to draft any of these prospects.  The RG3 trade was one of the costliest mistakes in league history and by God we should have permanently learned our lesson there.  And none of this year's prospects could touch RGIII.

Yes! Draft and spend in FA wisely continuing to build a quality roster!

It would be great to have a star QB that could be the face of the team.

This is not essential with TH signed for next year but there needs to be an upgrade to the QB's on the current roster

[London Kev]

I wouldn't hate it if we moved up a few spots, but only if there's a QB that Ron really likes. I don't think we will need to, but I would be okay with it if we did.

 

Moving up to #1 would be a complete disaster, and the only way it would happen is if we had a complete moron in the organisation, who has the power, and thinks that they are better at evaluating QB talent than anyone else...

 

Oh no. Please, please, please, keep Dan away from the big board!

[BC-Redskins]

Move up 1 or 2 spots for someone they love yip fine with it 

 

would loose my **** if we gave up a barrel load of picks to move up.

 

I’m certain we won’t do that under Ron..

 

if that half wit synder has a say then who the hell knows what will happen !!!

[Skinsinparadise]

I posted that article about them tradinng up purely for entertainment purposes.  The odds that they'd trade up to #1, I think is wild and won't happen.   Rivera if anything is establishing himself both via actions and rhetoric on the conservative side as for giving up draft capital -- too conservative IMO for my taste.  I also don't recall Hurney giving up the store with a big haul in a draft trade unless I am forgetting one.

 

I doubt any team ever again gives up that type of haul to go up a measly 4 spots in the draft.  Has any team since given up three #1's and a 2nd?  I don't think so unless i am forgetting a trade. 

 

To me my worry is Jimmy G.  Not that Jimmy G is terrible.  But I don't see him as a promised land kind of QB.  But if they strike out in the trade market, which I'd expect to happen considering who wants to play for a Dan Synder team that's bleeding fans with the worst stadium and facilities in the league?  I don't think Jimmy G has a no trade clause.  And Mayhew has a realtionship with that FO and they already made a deal last year with them.

 

To me Jimmy G is who Derek Carr's critics (who I disagree with) here think Carr is -- a middiling QB, middle of the pack.   Not great.  No bad.  I admit I haven't watched him much this season which apparently has been one of his better ones.   

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/jimmy-garoppolo-landing-spots-panthers-steelers-texans-washington-2022-offseason/

Washington might be the ideal landing spot for Garoppolo

Another team that has a ton of talent but no one to steer the ship is Washington. The Dwayne Haskins experiment failed quickly. Ryan Fitzpatrick suffered a brutal injury, and Taylor Heinicke has been unconvincing. Now Washington has a choice: turn to the draft, or look for another veteran.

This really does feel like a perfect fit for Garoppolo. They have the likes of Terry McLaurin, Antonio Gibson, and Logan Thomas under contract. The defense is also loaded with talent, and this should be a roster that can compete. Furthermore, they have $60 million in projected cap space to upgrade the roster to challenge the Cowboys in the NFC East.

 

 

 

[mistertim]

IMO Jimmy G would be at best a slight upgrade over Heinicke, mostly because he has an NFL arm. But he's pretty much the dictionary definition of a mediocre game manager QB. We already have one of those, why would we give up a likely 2nd round pick for another one? (I'd be pretty shocked if a team gave up a 1st but stranger things have happened I suppose).

[Skinsinparadise]

56 minutes ago, mistertim said:

IMO Jimmy G would be at best a slight upgrade over Heinicke, mostly because he has an NFL arm. But he's pretty much the dictionary definition of a mediocre game manager QB. We already have one of those, why would we give up a likely 2nd round pick for another one? (I'd be pretty shocked if a team gave up a 1st but stranger things have happened I suppose).

 

I agree with the slight upgrade -- I disagree with the at best part.  I think he flat out is better.  But agree he's just OK.  And that team is loaded.  If he can't do it there, how is he going to do it here?

 

The rest of my post isn't directed at you.  To win without that QB, you need a ton of luck.  Typically, its a really healthy roster. And or your mediocre QB gets hot at the right time. Sometimes its an easy schedule.  Facing teams at the right time, etc.  Yeah its possible for the football gods to come together for a one off season.  People love to tout Foles and Dilfer.  But neither dude had sustained success.  Heck clearly neither team believed in they found a loop hole in the formula considering both Qbs were dumped eventually and it didn't take that long. 

 

Look at SF.  They have one of the pass rushing teams in the league.  Their offense is loaded with weapons.  One of the best run games.  One of the best offensive lines.  They are a text book case of what if you built a killer roster and had just an OK QB wouldn't that be enough.  that answer seems to be no.  SF is good but they aren't at least this season yet a threat to the big boys teams with inferior rosters but with better QBs. 

 

And SF to me is best case as for building a team without that QB.  Tough to build a roster like they did with that many weapons, with a killer pass rusher, really good run game and O line.   Can any team do it if the football gods align in a one off year -- 100%.  But I don't want to build a team that's predicated on getting lucky like that.

 

I know its easier said than done but my point is I want them to swing for the fences at QB.  And for those who imply finding the next Aaron Rodgers is a fantasy.  Look, i agree.  But finding the next Matt Ryan, Derek Carr, Philip Rivers or name that good QB who might not be elite but is good enough to sometimes put a game on their shoulders -- while might be hard, shouldn't be a fantasy that other teams can enjoy but it just doesn't happen here.

 

NE swung and missed at QB the previous year.  This year, their off season had some big swings and misses at other spots but they got it right at QB.  And their franchise looks night and day better now.  I don't think Mac is the next Aaron Rodgers but I think he can be in the conversation with the Matt Ryans, Derek Carr, types.  And if some dolt like me among others here can watch Mac and be sold before the draft on him.  I do think our brain trust can figure it out, too.

 

I go back and forth on this.  My hunch right now is they shoot hard for a veteran, the big ticket ones and miss.  Then they end up trying this in the draft.  Keim has said Hurney fancies himself as the QB guy.  He supposedly was hopped up on Herbert before that draft.  I am guessing he might want to take a swing at this.  Hurney who started his career covering this organization and working for Beathard probably feels it as much as any of us as to the futility with this organziation at the QB spot.  I bet he'd love to be the savior.

 

And for those who say a Mac Jones type of QB doesn't exist in this draft.  My gut is they are wrong.  And Jones wasn't a loved prospect for many before that draft.  So for those who are cynical about it happening this time, remember the cyncism that existed about Jones.  Heck I recall some cynicism about whether Stafford would be a major upgrade.  Cynicism and the QB spot comes with the turf with us fans.  I get it.  We've been let down so many times.  But I have some optimism they could figure this out. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[BC-Redskins]

I dont want Jimmy G, he’s only a small upgrade on TH and he costs way more..

injury prone and average QB 

 

I can only see a Trubisky or Mariota FA signing happening and hopefully a QB from the draft 

[skins island connection]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I agree with the slight upgrade -- I disagree with the at best part.  I think he flat out is better.  But agree he's just OK.  And that team is loaded.  If he can't do it there, how is he going to do it here?

 

The rest of my post isn't directed at you.  To win without that QB, you need a ton of luck.  Typically, its a really healthy roster. And or your mediocre QB gets hot at the right time. Sometimes its an easy schedule.  Facing teams at the right time, etc.  Yeah its possible for the football gods to come together for a one off season.  People love to tout Foles and Dilfer.  But neither dude had sustained success.  Heck clearly neither team believed in they found a loop hole in the formula considering both Qbs were dumped eventually and it didn't take that long. 

 

 One thing that no one's really touched on is getting a FA QB who is already established in the league is one thing.

But, going to the draft to get a QB is only solving half of the problem. A college kid needs a good QB coach to groom him into the philosophy of the team. Yea, there's this talk of college teams and coaches who adopt an NFL-type system and supposedly are NFL ready, but it still doesn't complete the job. Whoever it is needs a good QB coach and an OC who can bring out the best of this QB.

Do you think that Turner is that guy? I don't. 

[DWinzit]

Jimmy G and Carr seem like equals. Even to the point that unless I am mistaken, they are both signed through next season for a little more than $20k. That means you trade for one of them giving up draft assets, then need to include a new deal marrying WFT to meh for 3-5 years. Would TH be traded or ride the pine next year?

 

I would rather they get infatuated with a mid to late 1st round QB, pick him and let him sit behind TH and learn next year.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 One thing that no one's really touched on is getting a FA QB who is already established in the league is one thing.

But, going to the draft to get a QB is only solving half of the problem. A college kid needs a good QB coach to groom him into the philosophy of the team. Yea, there's this talk of college teams and coaches who adopt an NFL-type system and supposedly are NFL ready, but it still doesn't complete the job. Whoever it is needs a good QB coach and an OC who can bring out the best of this QB.

Do you think that Turner is that guy? I don't. 

 

I do think he's the guy.  And Zampese has the reputation of being one of the better QB coaches in the game.   Both have good reputations around the league. The anaylitic types like Sharp love Turner. 

 

I know to some here Turner is punching bag level bad.  But what offensive coordinator have we had that's been loved here?  Maybe McVay but even with him he was pummeled in year 1.  From my observation, I think Turner calls a good game.  Not perfect but as I commented on in different threads I was really impressed when I paid attention to all the misdirection going on in the backfield when I watched the Raider game live.  

 

Logan Paulsen, who if anything is a cynical type, said weeks back that he was a Turner skeptic but changed his mind during the bye week when he had time to watch the games more closely and noticed how many guys were getting open.

 

We are doing this with an undrafted, who was out of the league QB, our #2 receiver was undrafted and on the street.  Our top TE for most of the year is also an undrafted FA off the street.   The O line has been savaged.  On and On. The dude isn't exactly turning lemonade into lemons.   Much easier to argue the opposite. 

8 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Jimmy G and Carr seem like equals. Even to the point that unless I am mistaken, they are both signed through next season for a little more than $20k. That means you trade for one of them giving up draft assets, then need to include a new deal marrying WFT to meh for 3-5 years. Would TH be traded or ride the pine next year?

 

I would rather they get infatuated with a mid to late 1st round QB, pick him and let him sit behind TH and learn next year.

 

 

To me Derek Carr and Jimmy G arent equals.  Carr with distinctly more talent.  Carr to me is in that 10-14 range.   Jimmy G is more of IMO a 17-22 kind of guy.  

 

If they are going for a mid to first round QB, for me it depends on who it is, but I'd trust if they do that it would be for someone they love so I'll ride with whatever they do and it least give it chance to play out. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[oraphus]

Jimmy G is a JOKE.. most people here couldn't wait to get rid of Cousins and he is miles better than Jimmy. Hell Heineke is better than Jimmy.. sure they both make bone headed throws and Jimmy has a slightly better arm but also at the cost of 0 mobility.  Why would you bring in a bellow average starter that on top of being meh, also has proven to be extremely injury prone. If you want to be stuck in weak mediocrity, just bring back Fitzmagic on a cheap deal.

I'd be okay with Carr as a stop gap for a few years but I doubt he wants to come here and I doubt Raiders will trade him since they are kind of a mess as well. 

WFT best chance is draft 2 QBs next year with the greatest potential. 1,2 or trade back and draft 2 in the 2nd and then have them compete with/ learn under Heiny.  This team has too many ??? on D and at WR to compete next year anyway. 

[Warhead36]

Garapolo is solid but nothing special. And he's injury prone. No thank you.

[method man]

What’s nuts to me is that few on here seem to realize that if Carr were to come here, he’d have by far the most talent he’s had around him. He is already doing what he is doing with just Waller as a special weapon. Imagine what he can do here…to me, he could potentially be a 6-10 ranked QB here

[DWinzit]

25 minutes ago, method man said:

What’s nuts to me is that few on here seem to realize that if Carr were to come here, he’d have by far the most talent he’s had around him. He is already doing what he is doing with just Waller as a special weapon. Imagine what he can do here…to me, he could potentially be a 6-10 ranked QB here

In all fairness along with Waller, he had Josh Jacobs, Bryan Edwards, Hunter Renfrow and Ruggs then D Jax added. That is not chopped liver

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

In all fairness along with Waller, he had Josh Jacobs, Bryan Edwards, Hunter Renfrow and Ruggs then D Jax added. That is not chopped liver

 

Passing weapons are decent, nothing crazy good though.  Not a good O line.  Their run game is ranked 5th from last in yards, 4th from last as for YPC.  

 

In short, that offense is on his back.  That's the opposite of ours. 

 

The way you stop the Raiders is you stop Carr.   They are #3 in the league in passing yards per game.   Only Tom Brady lead Tampa and the Mahomes led Chiefs throw for more yards per game than Carr and the Raiders. 

 

that's why among other reasons IMO Carr and Jimmy G are apples to oranges.  They are asking Jimmy G to manage the game -- they got other things cooking, plenty of them to help.   As for Carr, he's the key engine IMO of that team.   Crosby is a beast but otherwise its a pedestrain at best unit -- ranked 3rd from last as for points allowed.

 

Just like Stafford leaving, the reason why I think Carr will do better elsewhere is they put the team too much on his back.  He's not Aaron Rodgers.  Just like Stafford wasn't.  But he IMO is in that next tier -- 10-14.   You give him a supporting cast and I think he will do better.    And IMO he doesn't need a killer supporting cast.  

 

We get into these debates about QBs who can win games largely on their own without being surrounded with top tier talent versus guys who can manage a game and thrive with a killer supporting cast.

 

IMO there is a happy medium to that point.  A QB who needs a medium level of talent, not killer talent to play well.  And IMO Carr fits that category perfectly.  

 

I feel the same way as I felt before Stafford was put on the trade market --we'd be lucky that he's put on the market period let alone I'd pass thinking we can do better. 

 

https://raiderswire.usatoday.com/2021/10/24/raiders-qb-derek-carr-has-historic-day-despite-loss-of-top-weapons/

Despite the losses of his top weapons, Derek Carr simply went off.

Carr’s final line had him complete 31 of 34 passes for 323 yards, two touchdowns and one interception. Yeah, he had just three incompletions on over 30 passes. That gave him a completion percentage of 91.2 for the game, eclipsing Carr’s previous career-best of 90.6 which he set in 2018.

 

“I’d say he’s pretty close to the next level,” interim head coach Rich Bisaccia said of Carr after the game. “He’s in concert with [offensive coordinator] Greg [Olson]. He’s so accurate. He can literally go through an entire Wednesday’s and Thursday’s practice and possibly three incompletions and he ends up throwing them again. He’s just got tremendous accuracy, tremendous command of the offense, he knows where everyone is supposed to be, he’s the first one in the building, he’s the last one to leave, just his preparation. I’ve been around a lot of good quarterbacks, but his preparation is just second to none. And I think he plays like he prepares.”

 

Not only is this a new career-high completion percentage for Carr, but it’s also the second-highest completion percentage in the NFL since 1950 for QBs with a minimum of 30 attempts. The only QB in the modern era with a higher completion percentage in a game was Drew Brees (96.75% in 2019).

 

 

 

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-10-offensive-line-rankings-2021

26. LAS VEGAS RAIDERS (DOWN 2)

Best-graded: T Kolton Miller | 80.4

Worst-graded: T Brandon Parker | 37.7

Outside of Kolton Miller at left tackle, the Raiders' line is struggling. Miller has allowed 13 total pressures across 357 pass-blocking snaps and has a solid run-blocking grade, but that’s where the good news ends. Alex Leatherwood — the team’s first-round rookie — was among the worst right tackles in the NFL until he moved inside to guard. He has been better there but remains below average, particularly as a pass protector. Leatherwood has allowed 33 total pressures this season and at least two pressures in every game. He also has 10 penalties in eight games.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

In all fairness along with Waller, he had Josh Jacobs, Bryan Edwards, Hunter Renfrow and Ruggs then D Jax added. That is not chopped liver

Josh Jacobs is a JAG who is overrated because of his first round and Alabama status. Edwards and D Jax are not starting caliber receivers. Last year, he put up great numbers with Agholor as his number 1 receiver

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, method man said:

Josh Jacobs is a JAG who is overrated because of his first round and Alabama status. Edwards and D Jax are not starting caliber receivers. Last year, he put up great numbers with Agholor as his number 1 receiver

 

It's a good point about Agholor.  He had a career year with Carr.  Almost 19 YPC.  NE overpaid him and he's looking pedestrain.  But that one year with Carr got him paid. 

[Warhead36]

22 minutes ago, method man said:

Josh Jacobs is a JAG who is overrated because of his first round and Alabama status. Edwards and D Jax are not starting caliber receivers. Last year, he put up great numbers with Agholor as his number 1 receiver

Yeah that post made me laugh. Its like you're not exactly naming the Greatest Show on Turf Rams. Waller is the only above average player on that Raider offense besides Carr.

[CapsSkins]

Trade two 2nd's for Carr and draft Corral/Pickett/somebody in the 1st this year. Two big swings. Have to find the solution.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

Trade two 2nd's for Carr and draft Corral/Pickett/somebody in the 1st this year. Two big swings. Have to find the solution.

 

Eh, to me it's either Carr or a 1st round QB, but not both. If you get Carr he's who you bring in to be your guy for the next 5 years or so, not a guy you bring in as a bridge ala Fitz. No point in spending a 1st round pick on a QB if he's unikely to play for several years.

[method man]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Eh, to me it's either Carr or a 1st round QB, but not both. If you get Carr he's who you bring in to be your guy for the next 5 years or so, not a guy you bring in as a bridge ala Fitz. No point in spending a 1st round pick on a QB if he's unikely to play for several years.

Exactly. No one goes and spends a ton of resources on 2 different QBs. This team also has a number of needs outside QB

[skins island connection]

8 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I do think he's the guy.  And Zampese has the reputation of being one of the better QB coaches in the game.   Both have good reputations around the league. The anaylitic types like Sharp love Turner. 

 

I know to some here Turner is punching bag level bad.  But what offensive coordinator have we had that's been loved here?  Maybe McVay but even with him he was pummeled in year 1.  From my observation, I think Turner calls a good game.  Not perfect but as I commented on in different threads I was really impressed when I paid attention to all the misdirection going on in the backfield when I watched the Raider game live.  

 

Logan Paulsen, who if anything is a cynical type, said weeks back that he was a Turner skeptic but changed his mind during the bye week when he had time to watch the games more closely and noticed how many guys were getting open.

 

We are doing this with an undrafted, who was out of the league QB, our #2 receiver was undrafted and on the street.  Our top TE for most of the year is also an undrafted FA off the street.   The O line has been savaged.  On and On. The dude isn't exactly turning lemonade into lemons.   Much easier to argue the opposite. 

 

 Yea, i've done my share of punching on Turner, but not for what he's done but for what he's not done.

 I know that the team isn't healthy, between Covid and football-related injuries it has taken its toll on this team.

 They were on a 4 game winning streak going into the Dallas game, but that game plan was god awful. Yes Dallas may be more talented but if Turner is such a good OC then how did he end up playing right into the hands of what Dallas wanted to do?  IMO the coaches were more to blame than the players, but still it doesn't absolve Turner from calling such a predictable game.

 

Dallas isn't THAT good of a team to embarrass the WFT like they did on tv; to me it looked as if Turner was trying to force an issue that Dallas was already prepared for, and even then he didn't really change up things until the game was way over with, and at that point its almost desperation calls which fall right into what Dallas expected. So yea, i'm just not sold on him as of yet. 

[mistertim]

20 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Yea, i've done my share of punching on Turner, but not for what he's done but for what he's not done.

 I know that the team isn't healthy, between Covid and football-related injuries it has taken its toll on this team.

 They were on a 4 game winning streak going into the Dallas game, but that game plan was god awful. Yes Dallas may be more talented but if Turner is such a good OC then how did he end up playing right into the hands of what Dallas wanted to do?  IMO the coaches were more to blame than the players, but still it doesn't absolve Turner from calling such a predictable game.

 

Dallas isn't THAT good of a team to embarrass the WFT like they did on tv; to me it looked as if Turner was trying to force an issue that Dallas was already prepared for, and even then he didn't really change up things until the game was way over with, and at that point its almost desperation calls which fall right into what Dallas expected. So yea, i'm just not sold on him as of yet. 

 

It's also possible that it was just as much a bottom up problem as it was a top down one. We all know Heinicke's limitations, and obviously Dallas did as well. If you're an OC and don't have a QB who has the arm to reliably stretch the field and at least keep defenses honest, then that's going to be a relatively major handicap when calling plays.

 

I'm not saying Turner bears no blame. Just saying that there are probably lots of elements involved.

[skinny21]

I don’t really have a beef with Turner, but my mind isn’t made up either.  Until proven otherwise, I’m going to assume he’s somewhere between decent and good as a play caller/schemer.  Between him and Zampese, I think they can develop a young guy and Heinicke affords them some time  and removes a bit of the pressure to throw a rook to the wolves if need be.  I could be wrong of course.

 

Not sure I agreed with him going so pass heavy in the first half of the year with an inexperienced TH and his limited arm.  Not sure I agree with how Gibson has been used.  Don’t love the number of times receivers have been almost on top of each other.  I don’t fully blame him for it either because I don’t know the reason it’s happening… though I seem to recall reading something about him liking to do that?

 

I like his use of misdirection/pre-snap motion, PA passing and refocusing on the run game after re-evaluating over the bye.  Believe he’s also an analytics guy, which I tend to think is good.  He’s also had to deal with lots of injuries to the oline and the top passing weapons - Thomas/McKissick/Samuel (and even RSJ) and a limited/inexperienced qb.  I liked hearing how he worked with Cam - helping him with the playbook for example.

 

Maybe I’m being obtuse, but the idea that he’s scheming guys open doesn’t move the needle too much for me just because I’m missing information - are guys getting open after the qb moves on to another read?  Is the window getting closed down before the qb’s progression gets to them?  Is Heinicke’s arm too limited to get the ball to them (and do so on time)?  Is the throwing lane muddled?  Etc.