All things defense

[skinny21]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Settle is a FA after this year, while both Payne and Io are signed through 2022.  I think it makes sense to see what the next draft brings us while we negotiate with Payne/Io.

@Skinsinparadise I generally agree with your point about roster construction, but I’d be curious what you would think about 1 outlier year.  If we extend Payne (or Io instead), Sweat, and Young, I believe we would have 1 overlap year (2025) of paying 4 DL big money as Allen will be a FA in 2026.  Not ideal from my perspective, but to @IrepDC’s point, I’d take that outlier year over having 2 WJIII/Fuller/Samuel type signings.  My hope though is that we wind up drafting/developing a stud dlineman (or 2) in the next few years.  Would allow us to trade away one of our DL, or maybe let Sweat (or even Chase) walk after his 5th year.  Just a thought.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[method man]

13 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Where we are overspending is the secondary.  Our three most expensive FA signings are DBs and they all suck, that's our problem in resource allocation.  Spending big to keep your own stud DL is worth it.  Spending big for a free agent safety is not.  Nor is spending big for a corner with a career high six AV season. We paid a premium to sign a corner who has been a below average starter for most of his career.  That was the teambuilding failure and you don't make it worse by letting your worthy talent walk to save money because you wasted too much of your cap on free agent busts.

 

To your point, one of the things that hurt this team was not resigning competent starters like Preston Smith and Jamison Crowder before they hit FA. 

 

[wit33]

2 hours ago, method man said:

 

To your point, one of the things that hurt this team was not resigning competent starters like Preston Smith and Jamison Crowder before they hit FA. 

 

Disagree, those are types you let go and be overpaid. Those are kind of starters you have to be competent enough to replace. 

[bakedtater1]

2 hours ago, method man said:

 

To your point, one of the things that hurt this team was not resigning competent starters like Preston Smith and Jamison Crowder before they hit FA. 

 

I said this as it was happening....alot of folks were saying its OK to let these two go while I was saying otherwise..I was very disappointed to see both go...Jamison was awesome...very fun to.watch

[Going Commando]

17 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Disagree, those are types you let go and be overpaid. Those are kind of starters you have to be competent enough to replace. 

 

I don't think you can make any rules other than: get good players when you can.  It's too difficult and fraught to have any other absolutes than that.  If you can afford to keep your own good players--which we pretty much always can--then that's what we should be doing instead of wasting money on overpaid pieces of **** like Landon Collins and William Jackson.

[wit33]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't think you can make any rules other than: get good players when you can.  It's too difficult and fraught to have any other absolutes than that.  If you can afford to keep your own good players--which we pretty much always can--then that's what we should be doing instead of wasting money on overpaid pieces of **** like Landon Collins and William Jackson.

Very true. I’m not a believer in rules in the least, but not a fan of paying slot guys and was never enamored with Smith. 

[Silvernon]

16 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Hasn't been around the ball or made too many tackles for this to be significant. 

[bakedtater1]

6 hours ago, wit33 said:

Very true. I’m not a believer in rules in the least, but not a fan of paying slot guys and was never enamored with Smith. 

You ain't paying nobody squat tho....?

[skins island connection]

On 10/13/2021 at 9:26 AM, Cooleyfan1993 said:

When we play Green Bay in 11 days, if he covers Randall Cobb, it’ll be.....wait for it.....

 

On 10/13/2021 at 10:40 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

corn on the Cobb  

 

  So, soon we will be having Corn on the Cobb and watching Forrest 'Gimp' ?

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

You ain't paying nobody squat tho....?

While this is true, it’s also missing the point.

 

none of us care about what the team spends on who because it effects our cash flow. We care because it effects the salary cap and team building. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

11 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I don't think you can make any rules other than: get good players when you can.  It's too difficult and fraught to have any other absolutes than that.  If you can afford to keep your own good players--which we pretty much always can--then that's what we should be doing instead of wasting money on overpaid pieces of **** like Landon Collins and William Jackson.

 

Not ready to declare anything regarding William Jackson yet.

 

Corner play is a little inconsistent year to year.  Carlos Rogers was really good every other year.  Jalen Ramsey was dominant in 2017, pretty good in 2018, mediocre the year he got traded in 2019, then back to dominant in 2020.  I remember Ike Taylor on the Steelers (who I'm surprised never made a pro-bowl) seemed to oscillate between solid to really good yearly.  Logan Ryan was up an down in New England and Tennessee.

 

Maybe that's William Jackson.  He's being paid like a good starting corner, and not an elite player like Landon Collins is.  The better corners all make 50-100% more money than him.

 

Speaking of up and down play.  James Bradberry had a really good 2020 for the Giants, but his 2021 season has been noticeably worse.

[ThomasRoane]

39 minutes ago, KDawg said:

While this is true, it’s also missing the point.

 

none of us care about what the team spends on who because it effects our cash flow. We care because it effects the salary cap and team building. 

 

I get more nervous when I see the team give up draft picks than handing out big paychecks.  Granted, they have missed on quite a few picks.  I keep hoping that the FO breaks that trend.  They're not at the Ravens/Steelers level of course.  But the team has come a long way since the Cerrato days.  

[Warhead36]

50 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Not ready to declare anything regarding William Jackson yet.

 

Corner play is a little inconsistent year to year.  Carlos Rogers was really good every other year.  Jalen Ramsey was dominant in 2017, pretty good in 2018, mediocre the year he got traded in 2019, then back to dominant in 2020.  I remember Ike Taylor on the Steelers (who I'm surprised never made a pro-bowl) seemed to oscillate between solid to really good yearly.  Logan Ryan was up an down in New England and Tennessee.

 

Maybe that's William Jackson.  He's being paid like a good starting corner, and not an elite player like Landon Collins is.  The better corners all make 50-100% more money than him.

 

Speaking of up and down play.  James Bradberry had a really good 2020 for the Giants, but his 2021 season has been noticeably worse.

That is true CB play tends to be very erratic in the NFL save for a few of the really elite guys. I remember my Saints fan friend telling me how even Lattimore has had rough patches throughout his career. Bashaud Breeland went from being decent in KC to being arguably the worst CB in football this year with the Vikes.

[wit33]

6 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

You ain't paying nobody squat tho....?

For sure, a lot of nuance involved with professional level type starters (average) as it relates to resigning them. Make no mistake, I value average and it’s damn hard to get to level of being a competent starter and having a 10-12 year career, which I expect both to have. 

Smith is underachieving when factoring in his contract with Green Bay. The same narrative about him needing to step up and be more consistent has followed him to GB. The team he goes to next season will get him at a nice low cost and his value to a team will rise again, like when on a rookie deal with Washington.

 

I’ve learned the odds a guy lives up to his second contract is incredibly low. Wonder what those numbers are?

 

I want to pay all great to elite talent, freaks, scheme/blue collar fits (guys the organization loves and values), guys looking for 3rd deals that may have underachieved on a second contract, and recycle the rest with draft picks. 
 

It’s a must a team can replace jags and at times average starters consistently. 

 

 

 

[bakedtater1]

5 hours ago, wit33 said:

For sure, a lot of nuance involved with professional level type starters (average) as it relates to resigning them. Make no mistake, I value average and it’s damn hard to get to level of being a competent starter and having a 10-12 year career, which I expect both to have. 

Smith is underachieving when factoring in his contract with Green Bay. The same narrative about him needing to step up and be more consistent has followed him to GB. The team he goes to next season will get him at a nice low cost and his value to a team will rise again, like when on a rookie deal with Washington.

 

I’ve learned the odds a guy lives up to his second contract is incredibly low. Wonder what those numbers are?

 

I want to pay all great to elite talent, freaks, scheme/blue collar fits (guys the organization loves and values), guys looking for 3rd deals that may have underachieved on a second contract, and recycle the rest with draft picks. 
 

It’s a must a team can replace jags and at times average starters consistently. 

 

 

 

He single handedly won that game against dallass in Washington...all hail preston smith!!

8 hours ago, KDawg said:

While this is true, it’s also missing the point.

 

none of us care about what the team spends on who because it effects our cash flow. We care because it effects the salary cap and team building. 

Isn't the stress that's displayed on the field each Sunday enough to endevour?..never understood why one would go beyond that into the team..

[KDawg]

2 hours ago, bakedtater1 said:

He single handedly won that game against dallass in Washington...all hail preston smith!!

Isn't the stress that's displayed on the field each Sunday enough to endevour?..never understood why one would go beyond that into the team..

Because we enjoy football?

[Skinsinparadise]

On 10/15/2021 at 12:15 PM, skinny21 said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Settle is a FA after this year, while both Payne and Io are signed through 2022.  I think it makes sense to see what the next draft brings us while we negotiate with Payne/Io.

@Skinsinparadise I generally agree with your point about roster construction, but I’d be curious what you would think about 1 outlier year.  If we extend Payne (or Io instead), Sweat, and Young, I believe we would have 1 overlap year (2025) of paying 4 DL big money as Allen will be a FA in 2026.  Not ideal from my perspective, but to @IrepDC’s point, I’d take that outlier year over having 2 WJIII/Fuller/Samuel type signings.  My hope though is that we wind up drafting/developing a stud dlineman (or 2) in the next few years.  Would allow us to trade away one of our DL, or maybe let Sweat (or even Chase) walk after his 5th year.  Just a thought.

 

If the overlap works within the principle of spending per spot than i am cool with how it would unfold.  My point is simple.  I am ok with a loony cap allocation for a position on the field.   And yeah having three 20 million give or take players at a spot is high.  But I am riding that with bells on.   It's a lot of allocation for one spot.  But I am more than cool with it, I embrace it.   I think I am plenty of an extremist on the spot.  The argument to me feels centered on that I am not an extremist enough.  And their point seems to be more driven by take the bird at hand whatever that is and ride it fully with zero limits at all considering you might not succeed at the other spots anyway including banking on replenishing that same spot with a younger and cheaper player ala what plenty of other teams do. 

 

Some people's issue with my argument seems to be that I am wrong and there is no such thing as an extremist cap allocation of a position.  That's just pertinent for QB talk but not other spots.  To use a stock analogy, professionals often advocate to have a nice balance of a portfolio to ride the ups and downs of the market.  My response is I'll throw that out the window and go tech heavy and take my chances.   So I'd be considered unconventional by them on that front.  So if my portfolio is mostly tech because tech has been hot and I already had a lot of tech, then screw rebalancing my portfolio.  Yet, i am seen by some as a conservative type by some regardless because to them the concept of rebalancing period is for losers, let it ride whereever it takes you.  I get the mindset.  But for me, I am plenty wild enough.  The only difference that I see is I have a cut off point.  They seem to have no cut off point.  

 

And I know we are far from alone on this, the Steelers brass and Ravens brass talk about this.  There is a limit to how much they are willing to spend.   There are some people who have passionately talked about how much of the cap can or can't be spent at the QB spot.  There is a lot of passionate debate on that specifically.  But IMO some might miss that the debate isn't squarely just a QB discussion or they don't miss it but just think it only matters to QB. 

 

There is conversation about the same topic about EVERY spot on the field.  I've heard Eric Schaeffer talk about it in a podcast once including that the best GMs who he tries to model put a lot of thought into position salary allocation for EVERY spot on the team.  I've heard the over the cap guys talk about it.  Some analytics types (if I recall including Warren Sharp) even have an anayltics breakdown about success based on spending at certain spots.  

Edited October 17, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

On 10/15/2021 at 12:15 PM, skinny21 said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Settle is a FA after this year, while both Payne and Io are signed through 2022.  I think it makes sense to see what the next draft brings us while we negotiate with Payne/Io.

@Skinsinparadise I generally agree with your point about roster construction, but I’d be curious what you would think about 1 outlier year.  If we extend Payne (or Io instead), Sweat, and Young, I believe we would have 1 overlap year (2025) of paying 4 DL big money as Allen will be a FA in 2026. 

Love Io but his availability is always in question. He has only played in all 16 games once so an extension in my eyes can't be big $. 

[skinny21]

10 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Love Io but his availability is always in question. He has only played in all 16 games once so an extension in my eyes can't be big $. 

I agree.  I have my doubts they extend him, but I could see it coming down to him or Payne and the team thinking a cheaper Ioannidis is a better deal.  If it did happen, I’d guess a deal close to the one he is currently on as he hasn’t shown enough to demand much more.  

[DWinzit]

4 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I agree.  I have my doubts they extend him, but I could see it coming down to him or Payne and the team thinking a cheaper Ioannidis is a better deal.  If it did happen, I’d guess a deal close to the one he is currently on as he hasn’t shown enough to demand much more.  

Would be great if they could keep both but I doubt it happens. I could see your suggestion be the way they go. If that was to be the case, wouldn't it be better to put Payne on the block and get something for him

[Koolblue13]

Allen and Payne are possibly the best IDL combination in the league. Payne is staying.

 

I dont know if the constant injuries have caught up with Ioannidis, but if he actually is healthy enough to play, he looks mediocre. 

 

Losing Settle and Iaon this offseason is not a big deal. We can address it later in the draft like we are DE.

[Warhead36]

Settle is good enough to start and will get paid starter money by someone next offseason. Good player but replaceable.

 

Ion gets hurt too much. I think we cut the cord.

[skinny21]

47 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Would be great if they could keep both but I doubt it happens. I could see your suggestion be the way they go. If that was to be the case, wouldn't it be better to put Payne on the block and get something for him

If they don’t plan on extending Payne (big if), it would be smart to look into trading him - give us extra ammo (maybe for a trade up) next draft.

38 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Allen and Payne are possibly the best IDL combination in the league. Payne is staying.

 

I dont know if the constant injuries have caught up with Ioannidis, but if he actually is healthy enough to play, he looks mediocre. 

 

Losing Settle and Iaon this offseason is not a big deal. We can address it later in the draft like we are DE.

Believe Io is under contract one more year (through 2022), which is better for us as we won’t have to replace both DT subs at once.  Payne staying runs into the issue SIP is talking about - once we have to extend our DEs, we’ll be paying really big money to all 4 dline starters.  I could see it though, depending on what the draft brings (a DE or DT they really like), and whether we land an expensive FA qb (I doubt that happens, but who knows).

37 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Settle is good enough to start and will get paid starter money by someone next offseason. Good player but replaceable.

 

Ion gets hurt too much. I think we cut the cord.

I wouldn’t mind giving Settle close to what we extended Io for - it would probably be above market value, but once Io is gone, it continues the solid rotation at DT.  I don’t think that happens though.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

If they don’t plan on extending Payne (big if), it would be smart to look into trading him - give us extra ammo (maybe for a trade up) next draft.

Believe Io is under contract one more year (through 2022), which is better for us as we won’t have to replace both DT subs at once.  Payne staying runs into the issue SIP is talking about - once we have to extend our DEs, we’ll be paying really big money to all 4 dline starters.  I could see it though, depending on what the draft brings (a DE or DT they really like), and whether we land an expensive FA qb (I doubt that happens, but who knows).

I wouldn’t mind giving Settle close to what we extended Io for - it would probably be above market value, but once Io is gone, it continues the solid rotation at DT.  I don’t think that happens though.

Payne isn't a market setter, but should definitely get a good contract. 

 

Sweat is the player I doubt we resign. He's going to demand top DE money and he hasn't really been dominant and isn't a leader.