All things defense

[Conn]

17 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Yeah, Butler’s issues are big time concerns me, specifically poor angles and letting guys get over the top of him, probably the two most important facets to playing safety.  To be fair though, he, Martin and Forbes have all looked lost far too often this year.  And of course, you have to wonder how much of a psychological impact the overall poor defensive play has on everyone, and just how poor the coaching has been.  Definitely not a guy I’m counting on going forward though, except as a STer (If that).  

 

Here’s hoping the next staff brings more out of these guys.  With Fuller and Curl potentially leaving, no DEs to speak of, a glaring hole at ILB, a questionable group of corners, and the need to spend a lot of resources on offense… it’s going to be a tall task IMO.

A “worse” defensive roster next year (setting aside potential offseason moves) can produce markedly better results just by having a new coordinator go back to teaching fundamentals and playing fast, simple, passionate football, and then layering complexity on top of that as time goes on. Way too much is broken in this current regime to even narrow down all the problems, and Rivera isn’t going to fix it in 6 weeks of desperate retooling. But I’d wager whatever we field on defense next year will easily be better just by starting over, injecting some new players into the mix, and playing sound assignment football—even if “on paper” the defense should look worse. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Conn

[philibusters]

22 minutes ago, Conn said:

A “worse” defensive roster next year (setting aside potential offseason moves) can produce markedly better results just by having a new coordinator go back to teaching fundamentals and playing fast, simple, passionate football, and then layering complexity on top of that as time goes on. Way too much is broken in this current regime to even narrow down all the problems, and Rivera isn’t going to fix it in 6 weeks of desperate retooling. But I’d wager whatever we field on defense next year will easily be better just by starting over, injecting some new players into the mix, and playing sound assignment football—even if “on paper” the defense should look worse. 

 

That can be true.  Look at the Vikings this year.  Their defense got worse on paper.  They lost Zadarius Smith, Dalvin Tomlinson, and Patrick Peterson from last year defense.  Arguably 3 out of their top 5 players on the 2022 defense and they didn't really add any comparable names.  Yet they have improved under Brian Flores.  So coordinator does matter.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Standig article.  Jay was on Standig's podcast and was equally confused like Mueller about Rivera is saying now they will do it different on defense.  As Jay said its Ron's team, its his defense, that's his pedigree, he should have had his own stamp on the unit already

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

A “worse” defensive roster next year (setting aside potential offseason moves) can produce markedly better results just by having a new coordinator go back to teaching fundamentals and playing fast, simple, passionate football, and then layering complexity on top of that as time goes on. Way too much is broken in this current regime to even narrow down all the problems, and Rivera isn’t going to fix it in 6 weeks of desperate retooling. But I’d wager whatever we field on defense next year will easily be better just by starting over, injecting some new players into the mix, and playing sound assignment football—even if “on paper” the defense should look worse. 

Absolutely, and I expect fairly significant improvement (due to coaching) almost no matter what the offseason brings personnel-wise.  I should have been more clear though, I meant it’s going to be a tall task to turn this into a “good’ defense.  

It’s certainly doable though - personally, I don’t see a need to put much of our FA money towards the offense (I definitely hope to sign a high end IOL though), so we could target a good ILB and DE, and a Darby level corner in FA.  Draft should be mostly offense (IMO), but I think an early round pick at DE and maybe a pick or 2 toward the back 7 makes sense.  I think something along those lines ups the defensive talent baseline pretty significantly (and leave much of the draft to devote to the O).

 

 

[philibusters]

Listening to Keim, he thinks the major thing Ron can do for the rest of the year that could help is simply be more creative with the D-Line fronts.   Keim thinks Del Rio was very vanilla with his defensive fronts and he didn't scheme pressures for the players.  It was win your matchup, sometimes you got a 1 on 1 matchup other times double teams but for the most part you got a pressure by winning your matchup.  By giving different looks and using more stunts, the D-Line can generate more favorable matchups and possibly even an occasional unblocked pressure.  

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, philibusters said:

Listening to Keim, he thinks the major thing Ron can do for the rest of the year that could help is simply be more creative with the D-Line fronts.   Keim thinks Del Rio was very vanilla with his defensive fronts and he didn't scheme pressures for the players.  It was win your matchup, sometimes you got a 1 on 1 matchup other times double teams but for the most part you got a pressure by winning your matchup.  By giving different looks and using more stunts, the D-Line can generate more favorable matchups and possibly even an occasional unblocked pressure.  

I thought it was just the opposite.  JDR schemes were too complicated.  Maybe I am wrong. 

[method man]

1 minute ago, RWJ said:

I thought it was just the opposite.  JDR schemes were too complicated.  Maybe I am wrong. 

Complicated with the back end schemes (until recently when he went straight man) and vanilla with the DL/blitz schemes

12 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Absolutely, and I expect fairly significant improvement (due to coaching) almost no matter what the offseason brings personnel-wise.  I should have been more clear though, I meant it’s going to be a tall task to turn this into a “good’ defense.  

It’s certainly doable though - personally, I don’t see a need to put much of our FA money towards the offense (I definitely hope to sign a high end IOL though), so we could target a good ILB and DE, and a Darby level corner in FA.  Draft should be mostly offense (IMO), but I think an early round pick at DE and maybe a pick or 2 toward the back 7 makes sense.  I think something along those lines ups the defensive talent baseline pretty significantly (and leave much of the draft to devote to the O).

 

 

I am probably his biggest believer but I bet BSJ bounces back quite a bit next year. His 2022 season is still fresh in my mind

[skinny21]

3 minutes ago, method man said:

Complicated with the back end schemes (until recently when he went straight man) and vanilla with the DL/blitz schemes

I am probably his biggest believer but I bet BSJ bounces back quite a bit next year. His 2022 season is still fresh in my mind

I could see that.  Personally, I haven’t really bought into the thinking that our talent just plain sucks - especially when the argument gets into things like Allen, Payne, Terry, et al aren’t all that good anymore.  Of course, losing our DEs, and potentially losing Curl and Fuller (along with our perennial dearth at ILB) sets back our defensive talent quite a bit.  I like St Juste and I think he and some of these other guys can step up with better coaching, both positionally (ie teaching) and in terms of cohesiveness.  Definitely need to add some legit talent to the D though (as well as the offense).  Fortunately, we definitely have the resources to do so.

[RandyHolt]

Amateur hour opine... Zone match man or plain zone may not be using BSJ to his strengths..

[Conn]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

Amateur hour opine... Zone match man or plain zone may not be using BSJ to his strengths..

They’ve been playing tons of man lately though, right? 

[Warhead36]

BSJ's only strength is how often he gets away with illegal contact.

[DWinzit]

4 hours ago, philibusters said:

Listening to Keim, he thinks the major thing Ron can do for the rest of the year that could help is simply be more creative with the D-Line fronts.   Keim thinks Del Rio was very vanilla with his defensive fronts and he didn't scheme pressures for the players.  It was win your matchup, sometimes you got a 1 on 1 matchup other times double teams but for the most part you got a pressure by winning your matchup.  By giving different looks and using more stunts, the D-Line can generate more favorable matchups and possibly even an occasional unblocked pressure.  

Ron is going to do just enough to screw things up and get one or two wins.

I'd rather the team look good, stay healthy and play well through the remainder of the season but not win again.

[method man]

6 hours ago, Conn said:

A “worse” defensive roster next year (setting aside potential offseason moves) can produce markedly better results just by having a new coordinator go back to teaching fundamentals and playing fast, simple, passionate football, and then layering complexity on top of that as time goes on. Way too much is broken in this current regime to even narrow down all the problems, and Rivera isn’t going to fix it in 6 weeks of desperate retooling. But I’d wager whatever we field on defense next year will easily be better just by starting over, injecting some new players into the mix, and playing sound assignment football—even if “on paper” the defense should look worse. 

 

I'm fully with you here. The latest example is in Minnesota where, by DVOA, they have a top 10 D substituting Flores for Donatell and they are doing it with a fairly young group of unheralded guys who have stepped up in his scheme.

[Conn]

This looks…not good. Allen is supposed to be the injured one.

[DWinzit]

10 minutes ago, Conn said:

This looks…not good. Allen is supposed to be the injured one.

Holy hell, he best start picking it up. I hope he isn't this reliant on Allen's health. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

When he was mic’d up and made that statement about being “fat cuz he’s paid” it was a 🚩 for me that I desperately wanted to overlook.

[RandyHolt]

It was a kick in the coconuts to see Daron Bland getting so many pick 6s that WE envisioned going to OUR shiny new 1st rounder. Nail in the coffin was Bland getting #5 vs Sam. Final nail in the coffin for the week? Our 170 pound first round ball hawk is now out injured. When I saw on draft day he was listed at 166 I figured he would be oft injured. I envisioned teams pulling lineman and running to his side to test his tackling skills. And flatten him like a pancake.  Luckily, that nightmare never materialized since teams could basically game plan on WRs being open deep all year (and out muscle him if needed) and had no reason to run at him. 

[SpacePenguin]

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

When he was mic’d up and made that statement about being “fat cuz he’s paid” it was a 🚩 for me that I desperately wanted to overlook.

 

 

Not to split hairs, but I believe the exact quote is "I'm fat cos' I got that CHEESE!!"

 

Probably a more entertaining video clip than most of the games this year, so I remember it.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

We're going to switch to zone, Ron will have little control and the vets will be calling plays. Should be fun and exciting, but sloppy and aggravating. 

 

Our defense is going to take a huge hit this year, especially if we let Fuller and Curl walk, but that's fine. We're two years out right now.

 

Offense get's you in the room, defense keeps you in the conversation.

 

I'm also not worried about Payne. You know when we drafted him the only change on defense was him and we went from 26th against the run, to 8th. Just Payne.

 

He's emotional and passionate and it's an obvious throw away year. That affects players.

[RandyHolt]

What % of the time have we been in man this year? 

 

I saw a chart of all teams week by week and its never a flat line; DCs vary it week to week - they have to - heh maybe JDR didnt. 60/40 40/60 or whatever. I wish I could find that tweet.

 

We need data, Eugene. Going to zone, does that mean zone 20% more often... and I won't hold my breath for the answer to: which is zone match man lumped into. I'd bet its lumped into man similar to playing off man.

 

Data from week 7. Definitely ran man more than most from a quick look.  Though, a lot of man is still far less than half the time.

Edited December 1, 2023 by RandyHolt

[dyst]

Micah Parsons, no excuses, just makes plays. 13 sacks his first two years, and already 11 this year. One of the best players in the league not just on his team, so you know he’s being doubled and tripled team. No excuses, just makes plays. Meanwhile, Montez and Young couldn’t muster even 10 sacks and were still waiting on Jamin’s potential.

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, dyst said:

Micah Parsons, no excuses, just makes plays. 13 sacks his first two years, and already 11 this year. One of the best players in the league not just on his team, so you know he’s being doubled and tripled team. No excuses, just makes plays. Meanwhile, Montez and Young couldn’t muster even 10 sacks and were still waiting on Jamin’s potential.

Sweat is great all around DE and that's why there was a bidding war for him.

 

Chase will do well on the 49ers, because they have great LBers who can clean up a DE who only goes after the ball and doesn't play contain.

 

There was more things wrong with our defense than our players.

[Stadium-Armory]

15 minutes ago, dyst said:

Micah Parsons, no excuses, just makes plays. 13 sacks his first two years, and already 11 this year. One of the best players in the league not just on his team, so you know he’s being doubled and tripled team. No excuses, just makes plays. Meanwhile, Montez and Young couldn’t muster even 10 sacks and were still waiting on Jamin’s potential.

 

That last play he was completely unblocked. I can't recall seeing any of our ends come through unblocked on an obvious pass play situation like that. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

6 hours ago, SpacePenguin said:

 

 

Not to split hairs, but I believe the exact quote is "I'm fat cos' I got that CHEESE!!"

 

Probably a more entertaining video clip than most of the games this year, so I remember it.

 

 

You are correct on both fronts.  Has he made a play since that game?

[Warhead36]

9 hours ago, Stadium-Armory said:

 

That last play he was completely unblocked. I can't recall seeing any of our ends come through unblocked on an obvious pass play situation like that. 

They blitzed someone next to him to take up the blocker, freeing Parsons up to attack the edge where the RB was slow to shift to his side.

 

It must be nice having an actual creative D-Coord who maximizes his best players.