All things defense

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Imagine leading a defense that teams have so little respect for, that they will go for it on 4th & 2 at the 34 with Tommy Devito behind center.

 

The having the audacity to go sit in front of the press with a smug and arrogant look and demeanor like Jack will this week.

Edited November 20, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[@DCGoldPants]

Update the name of this thread to "All Things efense.... because the D is missing" 

[DWinzit]

6 minutes ago, @DCGoldPants said:

Update the name of this thread to "All Things efense.... because the D is missing" 

Well I'm sure our Defensive Coordinator J. . R. will have something smug to say about that

[@DCGoldPants]

9 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Well I'm sure our Defensive Coordinator J. . R. will have something smug to say about that

 

"efensive Coorinator Jack el Rio"

Edited November 20, 2023 by @DCGoldPants

[RandyHolt]

It may be a bit complex than high school level pass offs otherwise the best DBs in the world wouldnt be calling it out. BSJ pulling the curtain back is telling. While some may argue its on the player by his own admission of his failures, I counter that with no one would draft a guy that can't pass off. At the end of the day the coach is dealt the hand he gets and has to make it work. If its one guy sure cut him and have a 9M cap hit for 3 years. But JDRs futility record speaks for itself.

 

I think there must extra layers of pass offs that OCs are attacking the resulting confusion, or creating said confusion. I have no idea but I'll guess; but I would prefer an OC here to share attacking dynamic zone match concepts.

 

Decoy WR4 attacks zone defender 1, when 1 starts reacting, WR4 moves directly towards defender 2 pulling defender 1 out of his zone, basically creating double coverage on a decoy. WR1 attacks defender 1s vacated zone. At the same time decoy WR3 and decoy WR2 both attack confused zone defender 2, making him clip a coin on who to cover while TE1 on a choice finds the void of confusion. And do both of those on the same play. WR LaRon Profits vs JDRs beleaguered DBs. 

 

The kiss of death for our defense is not keeping it simple stupid, or for stupid. Either way, its on JDR. Dudes got a long leash being Ron's boy.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by RandyHolt

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, RandyHolt said:

It may be a bit complex than high school level pass offs otherwise the best DBs in the world wouldnt be calling it out. BSJ pulling the curtain back is telling. While some may argue its on the player by his own admission of his failures, I counter that with no one would draft a guy that can't pass off. At the end of the day the coach is dealt the hand he gets and has to make it work. If its one guy sure cut him and have a 9M cap hit for 3 years. But JDRs futility record speaks for itself.

 

I think there must extra layers of pass offs that OCs are attacking the resulting confusion, or creating said confusion. I have no idea but I'll guess; but I would prefer an OC here to share attacking dynamic zone match concepts.

 

Decoy WR4 attacks zone defender 1, when 1 starts reacting, WR4 moves directly towards defender 2 pulling defender 1 out of his zone, basically creating double coverage on a decoy. WR1 attacks defender 1s vacated zone. At the same time decoy WR3 and decoy WR2 both attacking zone defender 2, making him clip a coin on who to cover while TE1 on a choice finds the void of confusion. And do both of those. WR LaRon Profits. 

 

The kiss of death for our defense is not keeping it simple stupid, or for stupid. Either way, its on JDR.

Of course it’s more complex than HS pass offs. But at the same time, it can’t get too complex because there are only so many things that can happen. It’s a simple pattern match principle in zone and banjo concept in man.

 

Where it can get complex is varying coverages in half field vs. formation and formation alignment. 
 

The truth is always in the middle.

 

It’s likely that the scheme and coverage checks are too many for our secondary to really grasp fully (that’s on coaching) but also that the players aren’t doing enough to learn them/master them (that’s on the players). 

[Warhead36]

Its on the coaches to identify how to get through to the players. I'm not saying our secondary is the Legion of Boom, but Fuller is a good CB and has been for a while. Forbes was a 1st round pick. St. Juste is decent. There is no excuse for guys to be open so often on 3rd and longs against us when we play zone. Its one thing if our guys get beat in man coverage by the likes of AJ Brown and DK Metcalf, that's gonna happen to just about anyone, but when mediocre receivers like Darius Slayton are getting wide open against your zone coverages, then something is broken and its a coaching/scheme issue.

[KDawg]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

Its on the coaches to identify how to get through to the players. I'm not saying our secondary is the Legion of Boom, but Fuller is a good CB and has been for a while. Forbes was a 1st round pick. St. Juste is decent. There is no excuse for guys to be open so often on 3rd and longs against us when we play zone. Its one thing if our guys get beat in man coverage by the likes of AJ Brown and DK Metcalf, that's gonna happen to just about anyone, but when mediocre receivers like Darius Slayton are getting wide open against your zone coverages, then something is broken and its a coaching/scheme issue.

I don’t think many of you are following… I’m not defending Del Rio.

 

I am, however, telling you that there are more problems than just him with the defense. We are lacking talent/ability in multiple places. And yes, that is on the FO. 
 

I think a coaching change fixes it just because a breath of fresh air probably pushes these players. This is lame duck regime issues, 100%. 
 

But these players get paid. They need to be accountable as well and we shouldn’t pretend like it’s not their fault at all.

 

Del Rio is the primary issue at the moment. Doesn’t change the players need to be accountable.

[Warhead36]

Just now, KDawg said:

I don’t think many of you are following… I’m not defending Del Rio.

 

I am, however, telling you that there are more problems than just him with the defense. We are lacking talent/ability in multiple places. And yes, that is on the FO. 
 

I think a coaching change fixes it just because a breath of fresh air probably pushes these players. This is lame duck regime issues, 100%. 
 

But these players get paid. They need to be accountable as well and we shouldn’t pretend like it’s not their fault at all.

 

Del Rio is the primary issue at the moment. Doesn’t change the players need to be accountable.

I don't disagree. I think in particular our Safeties suck. There is constantly someone coming in late on the over the top zone coverage(cover 2 I believe but correct me if I'm wrong). And St. Juste, while he is solid at times, has no ball skills and is a walking DPI. Forbes is...well we know his issues. Fuller is solid but nothing spectacular and he got roasted on the 3rd and 1 TD pass as well(which was man coverage).

 

I'd say its like ~66% coaching and 33% players.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't disagree. I think in particular our Safeties suck. There is constantly someone coming in late on the over the top zone coverage(cover 2 I believe but correct me if I'm wrong). And St. Juste, while he is solid at times, has no ball skills and is a walking DPI. Forbes is...well we know his issues. Fuller is solid but nothing spectacular and he got roasted on the 3rd and 1 TD pass as well(which was man coverage).

 

I'd say its like ~66% coaching and 33% players.

I think I can jive mostly with this. 

[Going Commando]

Had to change our scheme yesterday to go blitz crazy because we can no longer easily generate pressure via the front four.  Got a ton of sacks, but left the middle of the field open for easy conversions and big plays.  It was the least impactful 9 sack game a defense has ever had.  They just got right back up after taking the sack and hit for a big gain next down.

 

Our secondary has a high school coach in charge of it, and we get high school results.  That's been a huge issue this year.  Chris Harris should be coaching this defense, not Del Rio.

[kingdaddy]

8 hours ago, Commander202 said:

That’s hard to say because we have a coaching staff that doesn’t know what they are doing . Be honest if Forbes was on the 49ers you think he be struggling ?

If he were on the NYG he would've had a pick 6 yesterday.

[Going Commando]

At the end of the day, you can't turn it over six times and have your defense hold up though.  Giving up big plays is maddening, but it was the offense who lost that game for us again.  They are terrible.

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

Had to change our scheme yesterday to go blitz crazy because we can no longer easily generate pressure via the front four.  Got a ton of sacks, but left the middle of the field open for easy conversions and big plays.  It was the least impactful 9 sack game a defense has ever had.  They just got right back up after taking the sack and hit for a big gain next down.

 

Our secondary has a high school coach in charge of it, and we get high school results.  That's been a huge issue this year.  Chris Harris should be coaching this defense, not Del Rio.

Yeah one under the radar change that has really effed us is replacing Chris Harris with some guy who has no qualifications except being buddies with Del Rio and hiring him as the new DB Coach.

 

We should have just fired Del Rio after last year and promoted Harris to D.C.

Just now, Going Commando said:

At the end of the day, you can't turn it over six times and have your defense hold up though.  Giving up big plays is maddening, but it was the offense who lost that game for us again.  They are terrible.

Sure but you can't give up 250 yards and 3 TDs to Tommy freaking Devito. You just can't. I don't care how many times you turn it over. 

[kingdaddy]

19 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t think many of you are following… I’m not defending Del Rio.

 

I am, however, telling you that there are more problems than just him with the defense. We are lacking talent/ability in multiple places. And yes, that is on the FO. 
 

I think a coaching change fixes it just because a breath of fresh air probably pushes these players. This is lame duck regime issues, 100%. 
 

But these players get paid. They need to be accountable as well and we shouldn’t pretend like it’s not their fault at all.

 

Del Rio is the primary issue at the moment. Doesn’t change the players need to be accountable.

To your point, questioning the talent selected by management, how is it that virtually the entire defense is underachieving? Are Allen, Payne, Curl, Forbes, BSJ, Sweat, Chase Young and Jamin Davis all 2nd rate players? I know you're not saying that but isn't it clear that when we blitz our defense is much more capable? Don't we owe these players a new voice who can use them better than how JDR has? The Vikings defense pretty much had to fill in everywhere this year and they're playing well. Hell, Denver has one of the better defenses in the league right now after being total trash the 1st month of the season. Why does our defense continue to suck week after week no matter who the opponent is? 

I believe it's the scheme/coach.

[Warhead36]

Davis has shown he can play well when he plays at or around the line of scrimmage and can just attack. He struggles bad when having to cover guys down field man to man, but just about every LB will in that scenario(again, coaching issue). 

 

Sweat and Young have been playing well for their new teams. I was still okay with the Sweat trade because a top 40 pick for a guy you're not gonna pay anyway is great value, but that Young trade is gonna hurt. Basically Trent Williams trade part 2. 

 

There is/was enough talent to at least be a league average defense. The scheme and coaching have crippled them.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Davis has shown he can play well when he plays at or around the line of scrimmage and can just attack. He struggles bad when having to cover guys down field man to man, but just about every LB will in that scenario(again, coaching issue). 

 

Sweat and Young have been playing well for their new teams. I was still okay with the Sweat trade because a top 40 pick for a guy you're not gonna pay anyway is great value, but that Young trade is gonna hurt. Basically Trent Williams trade part 2. 

 

There is/was enough talent to at least be a league average defense. The scheme and coaching have crippled them.

 

 

The young trade had to happen. He played outside the scheme and selfish ball and probably wasn't going to re-sign with us. I am not sure why that is lost on so many.

 

Also, he's playing across from Bosa. Of course he's playing well. 

[Warhead36]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

 

The young trade had to happen. He played outside the scheme and selfish ball and probably wasn't going to re-sign with us. I am not sure why that is lost on so many.

 

Also, he's playing across from Bosa. Of course he's playing well. 

I'm not sure I 100% buy that he was playing outside the scheme all the time. I mean if he's that uncoachable, then why would a team like the 49ers have any interest in him? AT the very least, after trading Sweat I'd have liked to at least see Young under a new regime. Can always franchise tag him. He was producing this year too.

 

Ultimately though getting any sort of draft pick for him is probably better in the long run, but it'll suck watching him rack up double digit sack seasons for the next decade.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

I'm not sure I 100% buy that he was playing outside the scheme all the time. I mean if he's that uncoachable, then why would a team like the 49ers have any interest in him? AT the very least, after trading Sweat I'd have liked to at least see Young under a new regime. Can always franchise tag him. He was producing this year too.

 

Ultimately though getting any sort of draft pick for him is probably better in the long run, but it'll suck watching him rack up double digit sack seasons for the next decade.

Because the Niners have the surrounding pieces to 1. Make him buy in because they are better overall than him and 2. If he doesn’t buy in, the rest of the group is good enough to make up for it AND he’s a rental for a conditional third. 
 

There is nothing saying the Niners can even afford to keep him. They may be able to, but we’ll see. Going to the Niners is going to big time increase his market value, though.

[method man]

30 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Because the Niners have the surrounding pieces to 1. Make him buy in because they are better overall than him and 2. If he doesn’t buy in, the rest of the group is good enough to make up for it AND he’s a rental for a conditional third. 
 

There is nothing saying the Niners can even afford to keep him. They may be able to, but we’ll see. Going to the Niners is going to big time increase his market value, though.

The Niners calculus was that if he leaves, they will just recoup a comp pick in 2025. The effective cost to them vs delaying the pick a year and maybe losing a round or two on it

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I'm not sure I 100% buy that he was playing outside the scheme all the time. I mean if he's that uncoachable, then why would a team like the 49ers have any interest in him? AT the very least, after trading Sweat I'd have liked to at least see Young under a new regime. Can always franchise tag him. He was producing this year too.

 

Ultimately though getting any sort of draft pick for him is probably better in the long run, but it'll suck watching him rack up double digit sack seasons for the next decade.

The 49ers have the luxury of giving up what equates to an extra pick for them to bolster what was an ailing pass rush.  I doubt their eyes are set on anything beyond this season with Chase.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The 49ers have the luxury of giving up what equates to an extra pick for them to bolster what was an ailing pass rush.  I doubt their eyes are set on anything beyond this season with Chase.

Except for the potential comp pick return as Method Man said.  Pretty savvy move from them.  Re-sign him if it makes sense, tag and trade if he lights it up, recoup the lost comp pick with an equivalent pick a year later.  Obviously he could wind up a lost cause and it could wind up as a mistake, but the calculus is/was in their favor, especially given the small amount of risk.

 

Edit - mostly just adding to your point here… 

Edited November 20, 2023 by skinny21

[Est.1974]

What’s the general view on Kam Curl and his contract situation? Worth a big deal or not ?

[Ball Security]

How many guys currently in the organization will be back here on defense?

 

Guys currently under contract for 24: Payne, Allen, Mathis, Ridgeway, Henry, Jones, Davis, Forbes, St Juste, Martin, Johnson, Butler, Forest, Holmes, Castro-Fields, Drew White, and Toney. 17 guys. 
 

Jabril Cox is a restricted FA.

 

I imagine they’ll take the combine $26k cap hit and let White and Toney go. 
 

Can’t imagine all three of the backend CBs coming back.

They have FA decisions to make on Fuller, Smith-Williams, Toohill, and Curl.

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

10 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

What’s the general view on Kam Curl and his contract situation? Worth a big deal or not ?

Wouldn't mind bringing him back, but if he's looking to break the bank then let him walk. He's a solid starter, kinda on that Ryan Clark level, but he's not a dynamic game changing playmaker and he plays probably the least important position in the sport.