All things defense

[MrJL]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I'm pretty sure trading him would crush our cap since we just signed him to a contract a year ago. 

 

The best trade pieces are Payne and Sweat.

 

we only signed him to a three year deal so, I'm not sure there's an actual cap killer year in there.  But honestly, I think trading both Sweat and Payne turns the line from a strength to a weakness.  We have no real depth at end.

 

Of course to be honest, I'm not sure there's a QB available that requires our first round pick, Sweat and Payne, so that might no be a big deal

 

Of course the deal would probably be set up like the trade for Smith, where it's done before the league year starts so we'd know if we had to focus on getting a DE and re-signing Settle

Edited January 16, 2022 by MrJL

[Warhead36]

21 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

we only signed him to a three year deal so, I'm not sure there's an actual cap killer year in there.  But honestly, I think trading both Sweat and Payne turns the line from a strength to a weakness.  We have no real depth at end.

 

Of course to be honest, I'm not sure there's a GB available that requires our first round pick, Sweat and Payne, so that might no be a big deal

 

Of course the deal would probably be set up like the trade for Smith, where it's done before the league year starts so we'd know if we had to focus on getting a DE and re-signing Settle

I don't think we'd trade both unless it was for some crazy package for Deshaun Watson.

[Silvernon]

2 hours ago, MrJL said:

 

I feel like William Jackson might be valuable to someone who plays a closer D to what the Bengals play.  He came on a bit for us later in the year, but then he missed time.  I can see him as a piece of something

Someone...meaning us?

 

Jackson had a subpar year but you can see he's the best they got for matching up with 1s. 

2 hours ago, MrJL said:

 

I feel like William Jackson might be valuable to someone who plays a closer D to what the Bengals play.  He came on a bit for us later in the year, but then he missed time.  I can see him as a piece of something

Someone...meaning us?

 

Jackson had a subpar year but you can see he's the best they got for matching up with 1s. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Silvernon
Weird.....doubled up my post

[D’Pablo]

This defense desperately needs veteran leadership.

[NoCalMike]

I think with an upgrade or two at linebacker, and some more secondary help, all of which is doable in a single offseason, the defense can look similar to the 49ers.  

[skins island connection]

36 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I think with an upgrade or two at linebacker, and some more secondary help, all of which is doable in a single offseason, the defense can look similar to the 49ers.  

 

 Absolutely, help will definitely improve the defense, but they will still need a coordinator who can scheme and call the right plays.

For most of the year the defense was playing a soft zone for the majority of plays, and thats a reactionary-type of defense, so when the ball carrier catches the ball a defender will be close enough to tackle him, but its moot at that point.  Countless times we've watched defenders standing alongside a would-be receiver, not even bothering to get in between the QB and WR/TE, and it happened all year. Thats coaching, or lack thereof. Yes the majority of those were LBer problems but those are things that a coordinator is supposed to teach these guys, and DelTaco just doesn't have that type of mentality.

[Burgold]

2 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

 Absolutely, help will definitely improve the defense, but they will still need a coordinator who can scheme and call the right plays.

 

Yeah, I think with the kind of line we have we ought to be a pressure-based defense and not a bend but don't break defense. Del Rio seemed to call a preseason (super-vanilla) defense most of the season. Perhaps, that's because his players couldn't communicate or were too confused (though that's on coaching, too), but I think his philosophy is less about outscheming the other coach, but having superior players beat the other guy.

 

The biggest question I have on defense was if the biggest failure was in teaching or in play calling (particularly over the first half of the season when that side of the roster was healthy and intact). I do recognize deficiencies at linebacker and that Jackson failed to fit in as a corner, but again that latter problem I see being at least half a coaching problem. Jackson was very successful prior to him coming to Washington that means he was misused here or the defensive coaches should have rejected him as a signing because he wasn't a fit. 

[Warhead36]

For as much as we poop on Jamin Davis and rightfully so to some extent, Zaven Collins whom the Cards took in the 1st round literally isn't even playing at all in a freaking playoff game.

 

The only 1st round worthy LB appears to have been Parsons.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Warhead36

[skins island connection]

watching the Rams/Cards game and this is a good example of a defense shutting down an offense. 

Murray is squirrely and can dodge and duck but pressure and coverage { good coverage } does help tremendously, especially in playoff games, so the thought of having a meh defense, ask Arizona how they feel about it...

[duffy]

9 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

For as much as we poop on Jamin Davis and rightfully so to some extent, Zaven Collins whom the Cards took in the 1st round literally isn't even playing at all in a freaking playoff game.

 

The only 1st round worthy LB appears to have been Parsons.

Nick Bolton played pretty well this year 

[NoCalMike]

The main reason I am making the comparison to the 49ers is the fact that both teams feature a D-line that can create pressure with 4-man fronts consistently.  Not that you won't ever send extra pressure, but it helps immensely when (if you aren't getting a sack every time) collapsing the pocket and making the QB throw the ball before he is comfortable & ready.  I think that was the biggest change in WFT's defense in the second half.  The D-line went back to being the terror it was in 2020.  Hopefully Chase & Sweat (assuming they both are back next season) will return to form in 2020. In Young's case, I hope  he comes back even better than he was before. 

On 1/16/2022 at 6:02 PM, Burgold said:

Jackson was very successful prior to him coming to Washington that means he was misused here or the defensive coaches should have rejected him as a signing because he wasn't a fit. 

 

Did Jackson play a lot of man prior to Washington?   When you are a good cover corner, switching to a zone scheme almost can hurt your game if the defense you are now on is not generating a strong pass rush.  Zone coverage is a hard one to pull off if the QB can sit back in the pocket and wait for WRs to simply run to and sit in empty pockets of field.   I knew Jackson was looked at as a solid CB when signed, it was seen by all as a good signing, but I think we also sometimes overlook what happens when you sign players who made a name playing a specific defense and then ask them to do something completely different.  Not that they should never be expected to adjust or anything, but I do think Jackson did start to perform better once the D-line improved and when you look at this defense it is definitely a D-line first kind of build.

[skinny21]

10 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Did Jackson play a lot of man prior to Washington?   When you are a good cover corner, switching to a zone scheme almost can hurt your game if the defense you are now on is not generating a strong pass rush.  Zone coverage is a hard one to pull off if the QB can sit back in the pocket and wait for WRs to simply run to and sit in empty pockets of field.   I knew Jackson was looked at as a solid CB when signed, it was seen by all as a good signing, but I think we also sometimes overlook what happens when you sign players who made a name playing a specific defense and then ask them to do something completely different.  Not that they should never be expected to adjust or anything, but I do think Jackson did start to perform better once the D-line improved and when you look at this defense it is definitely a D-line first kind of build.

He played a lot of man in Cincy, but they played a lot of zone as well.  IMV, his early struggles were more about the complexity of the coverage (mostly zone, but man also) that Del Rio was trying to play - a departure from the Cincy schemes Jackson was comfortable with - along with failures in the players around him, most notably his safety help.  While I think the change in DEs (and how they played their assignments) had an impact on the secondary*, I think the bigger changes were the simplification of the coverages and subsequent lessening of blown assignments.  Communication became easier and guys better understood their assignments.  I’d guess that the staff’s desire to re-sign McCain is partially so that they can build on that - ie add some more complexity to the coverage schemes - rather than start over with another FS.

 

*I don’t want to diminish the effect the change in DEs had.  Once qbs couldn’t (as easily) step into the pocket vacated by our DEs getting carried upfield, our interior rush muddied the pocket and forced qbs to throw a tick early at times.  A lot of times though, qbs were able to unload the ball quickly due to secondary issues, which hampered the dline (hence the team getting a lot of pressures, but few sacks).  I also think Del Rio was in an odd position.  I think he was affected by how the dline and secondary played last year, and against our inconsistent qbs in the offseason, not to mention he thought the ability to be more diverse in the secondary (more man coverage) would improve things.  My guess is he tried to be patient to let them work through the issues that cropped up.  I think this is a similar reason for why he took a while to transition Collins and put Curl at SS.

 

This all comes off as a defense of Del Rio even though it wasn’t intended to be.  I do think he deserves some blame, though I’m personally in “wait and see” mode given how (I believe) the personnel changes affected his play calling/schematic vision.

[method man]

The team needs more than 1 LB - get a vet ILB, take Muma in the 2nd and resign Bostic to the veteran minimum as a backup. Pair that with Holcomb, Davis and Hudson and that is a decent LB corps. Guys like Mayo are practice squad fodder and should not sniff the active roster unless desperate 

[Mooka]

Jackson was playing hurt for the majority of the season.

 

Absolutely was not a scheme thing as he was horrid in both man and zone in the beginning of the year. 

 

Bengals let him walk for a reason.

 

That being said, he's our #1 CB if he's healthy and hopefully will have a bounceback year. 

[Warhead36]

3 hours ago, Mooka said:

Jackson was playing hurt for the majority of the season.

 

Source on this? I know he got hurt midway through but that's the norm for like 90% of the league. I don't remember hearing anything about him carrying an injury going into the season.

 

He did play a lot better as the year went on. I'm not sure why he was so confused the whole time, I can't imagine our D is that complex. Its football, not brain surgery.

[Mooka]

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Source on this? I know he got hurt midway through but that's the norm for like 90% of the league. I don't remember hearing anything about him carrying an injury going into the season.

 

He did play a lot better as the year went on. I'm not sure why he was so confused the whole time, I can't imagine our D is that complex. Its football, not brain surgery.

 

Nothing 100% concrete but after he missed those games mid-season Ron admitted he was dealing with a knee issue during the offseason that flared up rather then a new injury.

 

But to the eye, he just didn't look right. Watch the Demarcus Robinson TD week 6 against KC before he missed weeks 7 and 8. Robinson put him on the ground with a swat. Looked embarrassing.

 

And if you read between the lines a but there was definitely a reason the Bengals let him walk. 

[DWinzit]

7 hours ago, method man said:

The team needs more than 1 LB - get a vet ILB, take Muma in the 2nd and resign Bostic to the veteran minimum as a backup. Pair that with Holcomb, Davis and Hudson and that is a decent LB corps. Guys like Mayo are practice squad fodder and should not sniff the active roster unless desperate 

Would be sweet to get Corral/Howell in the 1st and Muma in the 2nd. Gives the future leaders and the heart of the team on both sides of the ball

[kingdaddy]

I'm Youtubing the 1990 Redskins/Eagles Wild Card playoff game in Philly and our linebackers are so good. Manusky, Gouveia and Wilbur Marshall playing behind our very good defensive line. It's got me thinking how bad our linebackers have been with our current defensive line. We have to address this to get the most out of our line. That team in 1990 was fast and very physical...they hit hard. 

[kingdaddy]

5 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I'm Youtubing the 1990 Redskins/Eagles Wild Card playoff game in Philly and our linebackers are so good. Manusky, Gouveia and Wilbur Marshall playing behind our very good defensive line. It's got me thinking how bad our linebackers have been with our current defensive line. We have to address this to get the most out of our line. That team in 1990 was fast and very physical...they hit hard. Andre Collins was in there too...

 

 

[MrJL]

17 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

 

what's amazing is I remember that our LB corps wasn't considered all that hot back them.  Yeah, Marshall was good, but Manusky wasn't considered good enough to replace Olkewicz(and we did let him go in Plan B free agency) and Gouviea bounced around between middle and outside

[skins island connection]

On 1/19/2022 at 8:21 PM, kingdaddy said:

I'm Youtubing the 1990 Redskins/Eagles Wild Card playoff game in Philly and our linebackers are so good. Manusky, Gouveia and Wilbur Marshall playing behind our very good defensive line. It's got me thinking how bad our linebackers have been with our current defensive line. We have to address this to get the most out of our line. That team in 1990 was fast and very physical...they hit hard. 

 

 It was nice to see the LB corp back then playing 'aggressive', dictating to offenses.

This isn't the current DC's style; its more of a ' do something AFTER the receiver catches the ball'. 

it drove me nuts { even more nuts  } watching them on the field; no one was trying to get into passing lanes, it appeared they were gazing too long into the backfield trying to read the QB's eyes, and the WRs and TEs would simply move over a few yds and it was pitch-n-catch. 

Run support was ok, but in passing downs they were less than effective. Countless times we saw a very wide open WR with no defender within 10 yds of him. Thats one of the fundamentals of defense and something DelTaco should have gotten on top of immediately, but when they showed his wrinkled worried face he just stood there gazing, probably thinking about what he wanted for supper.

[Zim489]

I dont know how prevalent this thought is but ill let it ride anyway. 

 

Defense isnt about stopping teams any more. Its about as creating as many turnovers as possible. The game has turned into who can score the most points as efficiently as possible. If youre able to produce 1-2 extra possessions for your efficient offense you win more games. Let teams chew up clock and matriculate down the field. The more they are forced to put the ball in the air the more likely you are produce Turnovers and other mistakes. Play deep zones. Sit in coverage 

 

Obviously it relies on your offense to score at an elite clip but youll end up winning significantly more games than you lose regardless of how "bad" your defense is.

[skins island connection]

11 hours ago, Zim489 said:

I dont know how prevalent this thought is but ill let it ride anyway. 

 

Defense isnt about stopping teams any more. Its about as creating as many turnovers as possible. The game has turned into who can score the most points as efficiently as possible. If youre able to produce 1-2 extra possessions for your efficient offense you win more games. Let teams chew up clock and matriculate down the field. The more they are forced to put the ball in the air the more likely you are produce Turnovers and other mistakes. Play deep zones. Sit in coverage 

 

Obviously it relies on your offense to score at an elite clip but youll end up winning significantly more games than you lose regardless of how "bad" your defense is.

ehhh, saw the Rams / Cards game. 

[Koolblue13]

11 hours ago, Zim489 said:

I dont know how prevalent this thought is but ill let it ride anyway. 

 

Defense isnt about stopping teams any more. Its about as creating as many turnovers as possible.

You must be a big Diggs fan, because he can't stop anyone unless he gets a pick.

[Zim489]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

You must be a big Diggs fan, because he can't stop anyone unless he gets a pick.

He's very DHall like. I liked him. I dont expect him to get 11 INTs again and I also dont expect him to get burned as much moving forward either.

 

We'll see.