All things defense

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I mean our run D went to poop the second Sweat returned to the lineup. The sack fumble was a nice play, but even then, he got the strip and was celebrating instead of looking for the ball.

 

Million dollar talent, two cent head.

Yeah. And I think he was a bad influence on Young.  
 

I think they need to move him this off-season and see if they can fix Young. 

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

I thought Davis would’ve been much further along in his development at this point. It’s frustrating. He’s by no means a lost cause, we need to stay patient. But man..smh. 

[wit33]

5 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

I thought Davis would’ve been much further along in his development at this point. It’s frustrating. He’s by no means a lost cause, we need to stay patient. But man..smh. 

How do you discern how far along he is? Just curious, me being a laymen fan, I feel like he’s lacked impact on most games, but not sure what that actually means for his development. The other side of the coin, is the defense has played strong for two months with him getting a lot of reps. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by wit33

[shemp nixon]

Davis could be very good in the hybrid role Collins played. He runs much better than LC, and in better in coverage.

[method man]

1 minute ago, shemp nixon said:

Davis could be very good in the hybrid role Collins played. He runs much better than LC, and in better in coverage.

He doesn’t have the football instincts Landon has and has had since he entered the league

[dyst]

1 hour ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

I thought Davis would’ve been much further along in his development at this point. It’s frustrating. He’s by no means a lost cause, we need to stay patient. But man..smh. 

He is practically atrocious at this point. His 1st round pedigree is keeping him on this team. Pretty much every linebackers we’ve had recently is better than him, at this point.

[Koolblue13]

16 minutes ago, dyst said:

He is practically atrocious at this point. His 1st round pedigree is keeping him on this team. Pretty much every linebackers we’ve had recently is better than him, at this point.

This is so overly dramatic and wrong. Jarrod Mayo is better? Bostic? Lol okay. And you think he'd be cut if he wasn't a 1rst rd pick?

 

He was over drafted. I wanted to reach for Moehrig or Harris instead of Davis personally, but if he was a 2nd round pick like he should have been, we'd all be happy with his slow progress which we all knew was coming.

[PartyPosse]

1 hour ago, method man said:

He doesn’t have the football instincts Landon has and has had since he entered the league

The biggest red flag against him was the fact he had little college experience. It's not all that surprising he's struggling to adapt to the speed of the NFL. It's also not that surprising that WFT fans are ready to toss someone to the curb after a single season. 

[Warhead36]

His athleticism does occasionally pop, especially when he's in coverage in the middle of the field. But his instincts are practically non existent at this point. He is just really slow reacting to plays.

 

I don't think he'll ever be a perennial Pro Bowler, but I am optimistic he can develop at least into a solid starter by the end of next year. But still, a top 20 pick taking two years just to become a decent starter isn't great. And by decent starter I'm talking like Cole Holcomb level, and Holcomb was a 5th round pick.

 

If Davis were a 3rd or even 2nd rounder, I'd actually be okay with his development. But top 20 picks should be much better immediate players.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

How do you discern how far along he is? Just curious, me being a laymen fan, I feel like he’s lacked impact on most games, but not sure what that actually means for his development. The other side of the coin, is the defense has played strong for two months with him getting a lot of reps. 

For sure, I know what you mean. Just the eye test, feeling his presence on the field, and impact plays have been a little lacking. LB’s are usually flying around letting it be known they are there. We haven’t seen too much of that yet. I say yet b/c he only started 11 games in college so it wouldnt shock me to start seeing that in these last games and early next year as he becomes more comfy. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by COWBOY-KILLA-

[dyst]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

This is so overly dramatic and wrong. Jarrod Mayo is better? Bostic? Lol okay. And you think he'd be cut if he wasn't a 1rst rd pick?

 

He was over drafted. I wanted to reach for Moehrig or Harris instead of Davis personally, but if he was a 2nd round pick like he should have been, we'd all be happy with his slow progress which we all knew was coming.

44 tackles, no fumbles, no sacks, not INTs from the LB position playing as much as he does - kinds sucks. And if the argument is that he doesn’t play that much then that’s just as bad that he can’t get on the field.

[Koolblue13]

10 minutes ago, dyst said:

44 tackles, no fumbles, no sacks, not INTs from the LB position playing as much as he does - kinds sucks. And if the argument is that he doesn’t play that much then that’s just as bad that he can’t get on the field.

I'm not saying he's had a good rookie year. It's been incredibly disappointing and not surprising either.

 

I'm saying your claims that he's been our worst LBer and would have been cut if he wasn't drafted in the first is totally ridiculous. 

[Ball Security]

First of all…

 

So that is good news.

 

What are the priorities /big questions this offseason:

 

1.  MLB.  Do we find one in FA or cap casualty?  Will they confident to draft and start a rookie.

 

2.  If they acquire a MLB, and want to play Davis, do they bring back Collins?  Cutting him saves about 11ish Million on the cap.

 

3.  Bring back McCain.  The breakdowns in the secondary decreased as the season went on.  I like his pairing with Curl, so let’s have some continuity.

 

4.  Make a decision with the D-line.  They won’t be able to extend all four of them.  I think you shop Payne and Sweat, and if there is a great deal in place, pull the trigger on one or both.

 

Would be nice if they hit the ground running and don’t spend September and October figuring out what they should be doing.

 

[Koolblue13]

We need a MLB as badly as we need a QB.

 

Also need a FS because the 3 safety defense started working really well and Collins is an injured expensive player. 

[Est.1974]

5 hours ago, Ball Security said:

 

4.  Make a decision with the D-line.  They won’t be able to extend all four of them.  I think you shop Payne and Sweat, and if there is a great deal in place, pull the trigger on one or both.

I could see this being an offseason priority. They can’t all get 15-20mil per year deals here. Time to ship someone out. 

[Silvernon]

I'm all for shopping some DL, but the return has to be there. 

 

I can't imagine Giants not trading up to #1. I think you have to get the 2nd best QB and hope he's the best. 

 

Sweat makes too much sense. The value for a physically gifted DE is very high. He has a Julius Peppers body type. He's rare.  Break up those two DEs and hopefully Chase can work/hang out with other teammates. 

 

Montez Sweat + 2022 11th overall + 2022 3rd + 2023 1st + 2023 2nd

 

I could see that as the deal, maybe even with a bad contract coming back. That's four 1sts for a top pick. Out bidding the Giants would also be something I would be absolutely fine with. 

[Warhead36]

3 hours ago, Silvernon said:

I'm all for shopping some DL, but the return has to be there. 

 

I can't imagine Giants not trading up to #1. I think you have to get the 2nd best QB and hope he's the best. 

 

Sweat makes too much sense. The value for a physically gifted DE is very high. He has a Julius Peppers body type. He's rare.  Break up those two DEs and hopefully Chase can work/hang out with other teammates. 

 

Montez Sweat + 2022 11th overall + 2022 3rd + 2023 1st + 2023 2nd

 

I could see that as the deal, maybe even with a bad contract coming back. That's four 1sts for a top pick. Out bidding the Giants would also be something I would be absolutely fine with. 

Its not worth trading up for the #1 pick this year. Whatever QB we get at 1 is probably not much different than who we get at 11. There's no Luck or Lawrence type to sell out for.

[The Sisko]

On 12/18/2021 at 7:08 PM, SkinsGuy said:

 

Not with the way he was kicked out of Minnesota:

 

"The #Vikings waived starting CB Bashaud Breeland after he got into a verbal altercation today at practice with coaches, took off his cleats and got into it with multiple teammates who were trying to calm the situation, sources tell me and

@RapSheet

. Too much to come back from"

IIRC Breeland dropped in the draft because of character issues. Nah, we’re good. The last thing this team needs is another head case. 

[NoCalMike]

Maybe it isn't popular opinion but I felt the defense was turning a corner right as the injuries started piling up and just when we got a semi-glimpse of them figuring it out, it was too much to overcome.  I know Young & Sweat didn't get off to the greatest seasons but hopefully they were humbled out of the "I need to be superman on every play" stuff from the experience and we see the D-line become the menace it was in 2020. 

 

[skinny21]

9 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Maybe it isn't popular opinion but I felt the defense was turning a corner right as the injuries started piling up and just when we got a semi-glimpse of them figuring it out, it was too much to overcome.  I know Young & Sweat didn't get off to the greatest seasons but hopefully they were humbled out of the "I need to be superman on every play" stuff from the experience and we see the D-line become the menace it was in 2020. 

 

They did some good things for sure, and you have to weigh in Covid, injuries (aside from our DEs we were pretty healthy though) and poor offensive play, especially against Philly and Dallas.  Need a MLB of course, and to address FS (my assumption is McCain returns).  If we can manage those two, and hopefully add depth/competition at corner, I think the defense will be in fine shape.

[Warhead36]

I'd be kinda annoyed if we got a MLB now only because it means we essentially wasted a year of Davis's development. I almost feel like we're pot committed to playing him at MLB now.

[Silvernon]

10 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Maybe it isn't popular opinion but I felt the defense was turning a corner right as the injuries started piling up and just when we got a semi-glimpse of them figuring it out, it was too much to overcome.  I know Young & Sweat didn't get off to the greatest seasons but hopefully they were humbled out of the "I need to be superman on every play" stuff from the experience and we see the D-line become the menace it was in 2020. 

 

The worrying thing to me is the correlation between the athletically inferior substitutes seeing the field and the improvement of the defense. We heard it in the first half from coaches and players that guys were freelancing too much and had to play within the defensive design. 

 

I doubt whether they can show Chase and Montez the difference between the pass rush lanes and gap control of the subs vs the starters, and have those guys buy-in. 

 

It's a real mess. The Cowboys DL is what the Washington DL was supposed to be, and it doesn't look like a quick fix. And, you're not getting 'fair' value on the players that you move out. 

[skinny21]

45 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I'd be kinda annoyed if we got a MLB now only because it means we essentially wasted a year of Davis's development. I almost feel like we're pot committed to playing him at MLB now.

I get the sentiment, but 1) Ron’s already said he wants to go after a mlb and that Davis is better suited outside, 2) there’s a lot more to his development than just learning mlb specific things, so while not an ideal trajectory, he can apply a lot of those other things to outside linebacker.  Still a bit of a waste in how he was used though, I agree - I think they hoped he’d work out there, but it’s just not a good fit.  Hopefully they’ll work it out - we find a good mlb and Davis looks a lot better outside - and that improvement will help you get over your annoyance.

 

[Ball Security]

2 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I get the sentiment, but 1) Ron’s already said he wants to go after a mlb and that Davis is better suited outside, 2) there’s a lot more to his development than just learning mlb specific things, so while not an ideal trajectory, he can apply a lot of those other things to outside linebacker.  Still a bit of a waste in how he was used though, I agree - I think they hoped he’d work out there, but it’s just not a good fit.  Hopefully they’ll work it out - we find a good mlb and Davis looks a lot better outside - and that improvement will help you get over your annoyance.

 

And it doesn’t hurt him to know what the MLB’s responsibilities are as he learns his outside position. 

[NoCalMike]

2 hours ago, Silvernon said:

I doubt whether they can show Chase and Montez the difference between the pass rush lanes and gap control of the subs vs the starters, and have those guys buy-in. 

 

It's a real mess. The Cowboys DL is what the Washington DL was supposed to be, and it doesn't look like a quick fix. And, you're not getting 'fair' value on the players that you move out. 

 

Well I would say that hopefully their issues in 2021 were more something that is correctable versus lack of talent.   We've seen a lot of players come through this roster that didn't work out here for whatever reason and then go to other teams and put into roles that compliment their talent and skillset better and suddenly their stats and impact improve.  I'd say for a guy like Chase Young, the talent is there, but after his rookie season and all the accolades that came with it, he might have got it in his head that the "work" was over and he went into 2021 on cruise control.   I am hopeful that can be corrected.