All things defense

[skinny21]

13 hours ago, Zim489 said:

But if this is the situation and they are putting 4 good WRs out there they are passing the ball and you have zero reason for a Buffalo. Just put out your other CB. 
 

I obviously don’t have an issue with Nickel. I have an issue with a Buffalo nickel being used as an argument instead of 3CBs or base. 

So, a slightly different way to look at it - compare the BN position to the TE position.  If a team wants to call a pass play, why do they bother with a TE.  Just put an extra receiver in.  If they want to call a run play, why not an extra olineman instead of a TE?  Because the TE gives them versatility, and stemming from that versatility, an offense can better disguise their play calls and find favorable matchups.

 

The buffalo nickel gives a defense a similar versatility.  Depending on the skill set of that player, they can play deep zones or underneath, can man up against TEs and slot receivers, can play the run or blitz.  Sure, slot receivers and backers can do some of that stuff, but they tend to be more limited.  In theory, yes, you’re losing a bit from your coverage and a bit from your run D, but playing a slot receiver or backer means you’re losing a lot from your run D or coverage.

 

To be clear though, that doesn’t mean you don’t use slot receivers.  Doesn’t mean you don’t run your “base defense” (although we did rarely).  It’s just an added element (more versatility) to attempt to stress/confuse offenses while trying to balance the ability to match up vs the run and pass.  And there is a personnel factor as well of course.  If you have 2 excellent backers, or a very good group of corners (or no one that can adequately play the BN role), maybe you don’t use a similar hybrid role.  You could also argue it’s easier to find 1 good player (your buffalo nickel), than it is to find 2 good players - your slot receiver and extra linebacker.

 

And to that point (still using slot receivers), here’s the snap counts from PFR for our 4 game win streak last year:

 

Davis

56.3, 64.7, 51.1, 89.9

 

DJ

31.3, 27.5, 48.9, 54.2

 

Landon

91.7, 92.2, 85.1, DNP

 

McCain

100, 100, 100, 98.3

 

Curl

91.7, 90.2, 100, 100

 

Fuller 

100, 100, 100, 98.3

 

Jackson

100, 100, 100, 98.3

 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by skinny21

[ThomasRoane]

Wow, if Jamin Davis can't beat out Mayo then he's a bust.  I like Mayo as a smart, try-hard player who gets the most out of his ability.  But an athlete like Davis should be ahead of Mayo if they're anywhere close to one another in the knowledge of the defensive scheme.

 

Quote

At OTAs and minicamp, Jamin Davis was still ceding reps to David Mayo. That doesn't mean his second campaign is doomed before it begins, but it could indicate that he's still underwhelming coaches and, in their minds, not ready for more work. At the very least, it was a disappointing and sobering sight.  Pete's Post Office: What level of the defense is the most concerning? | RSN (nbcsports.com)

 

[skinny21]

3 hours ago, ThomasRoane said:

Wow, if Jamin Davis can't beat out Mayo then he's a bust.  I like Mayo as a smart, try-hard player who gets the most out of his ability.  But an athlete like Davis should be ahead of Mayo if they're anywhere close to one another in the knowledge of the defensive scheme.

 

 

I’m hoping it was a matter of the coaches saying to Davis “you gotta earn it”, rather than throwing him straight in with the ones.  But I don’t know… not feeling great about it.

[TheShredder]

7 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’m hoping it was a matter of the coaches saying to Davis “you gotta earn it”, rather than throwing him straight in with the ones.  But I don’t know… not feeling great about it.

It was a combination of poor scouting, poor drafting, poor coaching, and denial. JDR tried to force round pegs into square holes everywhere. Normally you put players in positions to play to their skills...not JDR, instead he screwed the whole team and should have been fired for incompetence but everyone else and every other imaginable excuse was publicized.

How an exNFL HC & DC manage to draft the worst pass protecting LB'er in the NFL at #19 is amazing!

[redskinss]

14 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’m hoping it was a matter of the coaches saying to Davis “you gotta earn it”, rather than throwing him straight in with the ones.  But I don’t know… not feeling great about it.

It could also just be a matter of it being ota's and the coaches just wanting to see a lot of different guys in different looks.

I wouldn't worry too much about it until you start seeing it spill over late into training camp.

The coaches know they screwed up last year and we're overconfident in the defense and yet still haven't made any changes to the linebacker group.

They knew they needed a quarterback and practically sky wrote it to the world, why no changes to the linebackers?

I think they know he'll develop into a solid player.

As I've said before if there's one damn thing this coaching staff should know it's linebackers. 

If they can't get that position squared away then God help us.

[kingdaddy]

On 7/21/2022 at 7:22 PM, redskinss said:

As I've said before if there's one damn thing this coaching staff should know it's linebackers. 

 

This is a well stated point. If Davis is a physically skilled as he's advertised to be then these coaches should personally make sure he's successful given the collective experience they have in the league. I know it's not that simple but he's their pick so coach him up.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

TheAthletic has a league sourced QB tier system. According to that tier system we have the easiest schedule of opponent QB's in the league. (All of the NFC East has an easy schedule). Pretty sure our QB opposition was pretty potent in 2021, but then lackluster in 2020. If our defense is going to "revert" and be a paper tiger in the regular season, it's got a great opportunity to do so.

[Mrshadow008]

On 7/21/2022 at 7:22 PM, redskinss said:

It could also just be a matter of it being ota's and the coaches just wanting to see a lot of different guys in different looks.

I wouldn't worry too much about it until you start seeing it spill over late into training camp.

The coaches know they screwed up last year and we're overconfident in the defense and yet still haven't made any changes to the linebacker group.

They knew they needed a quarterback and practically sky wrote it to the world, why no changes to the linebackers?

I think they know he'll develop into a solid player.

As I've said before if there's one damn thing this coaching staff should know it's linebackers. 

If they can't get that position squared away then God help us.

This is I think correct. I remember listening to a few podcasts during otas. Several said they were running a ton of combinations. They were running Holcomb and Davis in 1 lb sets. And then mixing and matching Davis and Mayo with Holcomb in 2lb sets

[Est.1974]

Our D is primed to under achieve as a collective group. I like our interior DL. Aside from that we haven’t added enough in the offseason in my opinion.

[RandyHolt]

I read here our D sucked early last year because Chase and Montez improvised too much.  If true shouldn't we trade them?  Expecting them to listen to JDR / same coaches seems kinda dumb. Maybe they matured in the off season and will do as told this time but put me down as skeptical. I still don't trust JDR who is also expected to get players to do their job. Seems like the situation is unresolved.

 

Regardless I will be eyeballing adding the Skins D to a season long FF since we face **** QBs. At least the days of always losing to rookie QBs days is in the rear view but we do always seem to set some futility record on D every year. Most 3rd and 15+ allowed in 47 years type of stat.

Edited July 29, 2022 by RandyHolt

[Warhead36]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:34 PM, RandyHolt said:

I read here our D sucked early last year because Chase and Montez improvised too much.  If true shouldn't we trade them?  Expecting them to listen to JDR / same coaches seems kinda dumb. Maybe they matured in the off season and will do as told this time but put me down as skeptical. I still don't trust JDR who is also expected to get players to do their job. Seems like the situation is unresolved.

 

Regardless I will be eyeballing adding the Skins D to a season long FF since we face **** QBs. At least the days of always losing to rookie QBs days is in the rear view but we do always seem to set some futility record on D every year. Most 3rd and 15+ allowed in 47 years type of stat.

You don't just give up on promising young talent, especially when they're on dirt cheap rookie contracts and have shown the ability to play well. You coach em up and hope they figure it out. We would get crap return on any sort of trade. 

[skinny21]

On 7/28/2022 at 9:34 PM, RandyHolt said:

I read here our D sucked early last year because Chase and Montez improvised too much.  If true shouldn't we trade them?  Expecting them to listen to JDR / same coaches seems kinda dumb. Maybe they matured in the off season and will do as told this time but put me down as skeptical. I still don't trust JDR who is also expected to get players to do their job. Seems like the situation is unresolved.

 

Regardless I will be eyeballing adding the Skins D to a season long FF since we face **** QBs. At least the days of always losing to rookie QBs days is in the rear view but we do always seem to set some futility record on D every year. Most 3rd and 15+ allowed in 47 years type of stat.

First of all, I think it’s 100% fair to be skeptical.

 

With that said, while Young and Sweat were a part of the problem, I believe the major issue was the secondary.  Newcomers McCain and Jackson had issues with communication, in (large?) part due to the lack of OTAs.  Jackson was also tasked with learning/executing a style of defense that he was unaccustomed to.  Jackson talking about the communication being “1,000 times better” this year, and saying he didn’t get comfortable with the D until the Bucs game backs those points up.

 

Then of course,  Bostic getting injured, Davis getting significant time (and not being “ready”), Collins playing safety (vs dimebacker) - these all (and other factors) played into the difficulties the D faced.

 

Back to Sweat/Young, I think a few things went wrong for them.  The back 7 struggling, coupled with playing a more difficult slate of qbs, meant the ball was getting out quicker, and therefore less production for the DEs.  My guess is that issue, along with the notion/assumption they were going to dominate, lead them to force things, and therefore not play w/in the scheme at times.

 

My hope is that the back 7 will be much improved this year, and 1) that the injuries to our DEs gave them a chance at a different perspective (the need to play w/in the scheme), and 2) last season gave them a dose of humility.  Young has spoken to both factors, and Del Rio/RR pushing the humility message can only help.

 

Unfortunately, Young will likely have some trouble getting back up to speed as he recovers, and I have to wonder whether rehabbing sets back his development of counter moves and the like.  We’ll see.

[RandyHolt]

On 7/30/2022 at 1:55 PM, Warhead36 said:

You don't just give up on promising young talent, especially when they're on dirt cheap rookie contracts and have shown the ability to play well. You coach em up and hope they figure it out. We would get crap return on any sort of trade. 

I think a good GM may be able to fetch a reasonable return but know trades are rare.  Otherwise I agree 100% which kinda points the finger back at JDR for me. Our defense woefully underachieved last year that I don't think it can be pinned on a single player not good/experienced enough or a few free lancing. I'd guess that happens very often on D league wide.  I was a hard sell on JDR and his tweets were icing on the cake. The players deep down likely don't like him and won't run through walls for him. But he is here and know RR and he are buds so its time for more of our annual unbridled optimism. In RR we trust.

[redskinss]

I don't get all the jdr hate.

He has had some dumb tweets, sure and if you can't get behind him because of them I can respect that but me I don't care much about non football things, I watch football for football and it takes something pretty awful for me to care much, honestly I miss the days when dexter Manley could get caught doing coke off a hookers back and nobody really cared but I digress. 

 

I believe del Rio is an excellent defensive football coach with a very long history of success as both a coordinator and a head coach.

We had a top 5 defense the first year he was here. Sure we back slid something awful year two but the defense rebounded to finish the year much better.

I think we're going to have a top ten possibly top 5 defense again and nobody will be longing for the days of Joe Barry anymore. 

[Ball Security]

18 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I don't get all the jdr hate.

He has had some dumb tweets, sure and if you can't get behind him because of them I can respect that but me I don't care much about non football things, I watch football for football and it takes something pretty awful for me to care much, honestly I miss the days when dexter Manley could get caught doing coke off a hookers back and nobody really cared but I digress. 

 

I believe del Rio is an excellent defensive football coach with a very long history of success as both a coordinator and a head coach.

We had a top 5 defense the first year he was here. Sure we back slid something awful year two but the defense rebounded to finish the year much better.

I think we're going to have a top ten possibly top 5 defense again and nobody will be longing for the days of Joe Barry anymore. 

I think the football “hate” comes from:

Playing LC out of position for way too long at the expense of Curl.

Drafting a LB in the mid first round, playing him out of position, and getting nothing out of him year 1.

Getting mediocre performance from a front line that has 4 first rounders.

His secondary not communicating/functioning as a unit for most of the season.

Watching his guys not be in position to break up a game changing Hail Mary at the end of the first half against NO.

[redskinss]

8 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

I think the football “hate” comes from:

Playing LC out of position for way too long at the expense of Curl.

Drafting a LB in the mid first round, playing him out of position, and getting nothing out of him year 1.

Getting mediocre performance from a front line that has 4 first rounders.

His secondary not communicating/functioning as a unit for most of the season.

Watching his guys not be in position to break up a game changing Hail Mary at the end of the first half against NO.

I can see the frustration with those things, especially considering how badly we started the year and I was as frustrated as anybody but I'm also not an x's and o's guy, so I only look at the big picture and I think we're very lucky to have the defensive coaching staff that we do and I think last year was an outlier.

 

[Koolblue13]

Nobody is on the hot seat more than JDR. Especially with Harris already on staff.

[Warhead36]

Del Rio is...fine. You give him some talent and he'll run a solid defense but he's not going to be innovative or think of anything outside the box. How long did it take him to move Collins to the LB/Safety hybrid role when fans were screaming for it for months? 

[CobraCommander]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Del Rio is...fine. You give him some talent and he'll run a solid defense but he's not going to be innovative or think of anything outside the box. How long did it take him to move Collins to the LB/Safety hybrid role when fans were screaming for it for months? 

It took months, lol. 

 

Problem is that "fine" isn't good enough in this league. For the record I think Rivera is just "fine" as well, probably Turner too. It's a big issue when you're trying to not be mediocre anymore. 

[Koolblue13]

19 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Del Rio is...fine. You give him some talent and he'll run a solid defense but he's not going to be innovative or think of anything outside the box. How long did it take him to move Collins to the LB/Safety hybrid role when fans were screaming for it for months? 

He basically created a new defense last season. Took a while to implement and fine tune, but 3 safeties and 5 Dline isn't something teams are doing. 

 

So yes, hes outside the box.

[skinny21]

54 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Del Rio is...fine. You give him some talent and he'll run a solid defense but he's not going to be innovative or think of anything outside the box. How long did it take him to move Collins to the LB/Safety hybrid role when fans were screaming for it for months? 

Playing Collins over Curl was an… odd choice.  My memory’s hazy though, were fans calling for Collins to play Buffalo Nickel?  I thought it was a position he created (not saying invented) midseason?

 

As I’ve said, I’m not sure about Del Rio either way, but I will say -

1) Davis is much better suited to WLB, but considering how little we run our “base” D, I can see why they’d want to focus on him playing inside more.  Davis wasn’t ‘ready’, but I don’t think we had a better option short of moving Collins.

2) Arguably our 2nd best corner was DJ, and that’s a problem.  WJIII took a long time to adjust to the D (as did McCain, seemingly), and St Juste had a learning curve/injuries.  Tough spot for a DC, particularly given how much coverage affects the pass rush.

3) Del Rio doesn’t come across as innovative (I can’t say for sure though), but he has shown a willingness to try different things - dimebacker, using 5 dlinemen, simplifying the coverages, blitzing more (when our DEs weren’t having success).

4) He had to deal with an offense that often didn’t help the D out.

 

Bottom line, he had some talent on D for sure, on paper at least, but lots of weak spots in reality.  All while facing a tough slate of qbs/offenses.

[redskinss]

35 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He basically created a new defense last season. Took a while to implement and fine tune, but 3 safeties and 5 Dline isn't something teams are doing. 

 

So yes, hes outside the box.

I know this is a discussion forum and that's what it's all about and I don't criticize fans for doing it but it does amuse me when fans get all bent out of shape about minute details of the offense and defense and then pretend like they know more than the coordinator. 

The worst coordinator in the nfl has forgotten more about the sport than the biggest fan will ever know.

If anybody on this board were to sit down with del Rio and start railing on him about how he played collins out of position last year, his reply would turn their brain to mush trying to understand it.

Rookies who have been playing the sport at an elite level their entire lives get caught in a daze trying to catch up to the intricacies of the nfl.

I just go by a combination of past and present results and I'm not even close to giving up on del rio just because we struggled last year to start off.

[samy316]

This defense is barely top half when you average out the terrible QB’s we faced in 2020 that jumped us into a “top 5” defense, and then you juxtapose that with our terrible showing in 2021, when facing top tier QB’s like Brady, Mahommes,  Allen and Rodgers.  The truth is that we’re a middling defense, but will look better by default this year, since we’re facing mediocre to bad QB’s.  I think we’ll probably finish as a top 15 defense, but a lot of that rests on our competition and our offense’s ability to score 24-27 PPG consistently.  Young & Sweat have to live up to their ability, or we’re in trouble going forward, and Del Rio is going to be looking for a new job in 2023.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, redskinss said:

I know this is a discussion forum and that's what it's all about and I don't criticize fans for doing it but it does amuse me when fans get all bent out of shape about minute details of the offense and defense and then pretend like they know more than the coordinator. 

The worst coordinator in the nfl has forgotten more about the sport than the biggest fan will ever know.

If anybody on this board were to sit down with del Rio and start railing on him about how he played collins out of position last year, his reply would turn their brain to mush trying to understand it.

Rookies who have been playing the sport at an elite level their entire lives get caught in a daze trying to catch up to the intricacies of the nfl.

I just go by a combination of past and present results and I'm not even close to giving up on del rio just because we struggled last year to start off.

Yeah, I agree. Going by what they've said, our DEs weren't playing in position and our secondary had communication issues. A lot of things happened last season like those DEs getting hurt. Bostic going down forcing the extra safety into the box. Secondary getting it together. They adapted and played much better down the stretch. No reason to think the defense we wanted to run last year, shouldn't be more dialed in this year. I expect a lot better results. Being able to score should help too.

 

I was a JDR fan pre tweets, so I still think hes a capable DC and at worst average.

[skinny21]

43 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Yeah, I agree. Going by what they've said, our DEs weren't playing in position and our secondary had communication issues. A lot of things happened last season like those DEs getting hurt. Bostic going down forcing the extra safety into the box. Secondary getting it together. They adapted and played much better down the stretch. No reason to think the defense we wanted to run last year, shouldn't be more dialed in this year. I expect a lot better results. Being able to score should help too.

 

I was a JDR fan pre tweets, so I still think hes a capable DC and at worst average.

Yep, right there with you.  If WJIII and McCain aren’t weak links anymore, it’s going to be a lot easier for Del Rio (and our pass rush).  Still questions about Davis/St Juste/whoever our 3rd safety is/our DE opposite Sweat, but it sounds like Davis and St Juste are improved, and JSW/Toohill are at least competent fill-ins for Young in the short term.  I think the D will be much better.  Top 5?  That’s a long shot IMO, but top half of the league is my expectation.

 

Edit: my hope is that Butler grabs that 3rd safety spot and that by (roughly) midseason, Butler and Davis will have gotten a lot more comfortable - flashing at times and mostly limiting mistakes.  We’ll see.

Edited August 5, 2022 by skinny21