All things defense

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

4 hours ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

And in the post-game, Ron just sounds like "shoulder shrugs", doesn't seem pissed at all, so why would they feel accountable?

He’s so casual like these first two years don’t matter at all in terms of wins and losses

[Warhead36]

7 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

He’s so casual like these first two years don’t matter at all in terms of wins and losses

He knows it probably doesn't. He probably has a mandate from Dan that his job is 100% safe no matter what until we get the new name.

[skinsfan93]

I disagree that Ron isn’t pissed. He came across very frustrated. He’s not going to blast the team players or coaches in a post game interview. That’s how you lose the team. 

[Malapropismic Depository]

33 minutes ago, SAli457180 said:

This is the kind of stuff that created the hype of this great defense.  Not being humble but believing that their *** didn't stink and look where they are now.

 

The inspiration doesn't end there.

Back in the secondary, you've got Landon Collins, playing inspired to be like Sean Taylor, the guy he models himself after !

 

[IrepDC]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You are thinking about the roster as it exists today.  I am thinking roster allocation in general.  You don't want 40-50% for one spot IMO.  The 49ers got a high pick back for Buckner.  They knew they couldn't pay 4 guys big money on the D line versus 3.  The Ravens sometimes let some of their players go at certain spots who are really good.  These teams do it not because they are dumb.  But its about having a balanced roster.   

 

The idea of getting a high draft pick for a player is somewhat of a foreign concept here because its not how this team rolls but its something that happens elsewhere.  We can actually draft or go get another D lineman who is good.  It's not just about these 4 guys or bust, its over after them.  49ers took Kinlaw with one of their first round picks.    Maybe the new player works, or maybe he doesn't.  But you can draft another Tim Settle type or whomever.   You can go young at a spot where you have too much payroll and have to trim.  The Ravens do it all the time. The Steelers don't want to pay all their young stud receivers when they hit FA so they let one go.  Yeah its painful to do but it helps keep a balanced roster. 

 

I wouldn't want 3 corners making 15 millon plus.  I wouldn't want 3 receivers making 15 million plus.  And I wouldn't want 4 D lineman making 20-25 million a year.  I wouldn't want 4 O lineman making 15 million plus.   If you do that something has to give at another spot. 

 

We have these same 4 D lineman right now.  Now we mostly have them cheap and this defense is still bad.  If they consume 45% or so of the budget, I just don't see how that's the ticket.  Yeah some of these corners/safeties would be off the books.  but you got other expenses. Are we going to get a QB?  do we have to play Leno?  Terry?  

 

The money you don't give our DL will end up going to FAs and we consistently waste money on FAs. We have over $20 million a year on the bench with Fitz and Samuel right now. When we allow Payne or Sweat to walk, and pay a FA like Jackson or Collins, it will "look better" I guess because the money was spread, but our team won't be better. Teams should adapt based on what they have. Simply letting talent walk with no other talent to pay, will not be what elevates this team to the next level. 

[Warhead36]

The Bucs kept an entire roster that won a Super Bowl and that's factoring in a QB getting big money.

 

We're not paying a QB, so there is no excuse. I'm not about letting good players walk for nothing.

[IrepDC]

@Skinsinparadise also the 49ers and Ravens had rosters overflowing with talent.. they HAD to pick who to pay. We have about 50 mil getting wasted on overpaid players and still need a few years of good drafting. We are not in a situation that we wouldn't be able to pay all our talented players. We would literally be saving money to throw at FAs.

[Malapropismic Depository]

It's utterly mind-boggling to watch and re-watch the last play of the half.

It was such a blatant lack of effort, it had all appearances of the game being rigged and players being paid off.

The way the receiver was surrounded by our DB's and it looked like not a single DB jumped up, or even raised a hand.

It looks as if all our DB's formed a circle around the receiver to sing Happy Birthday to him.

[carex]

9 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

It's utterly mind-boggling to watch and re-watch the last play of the half.

It was such a blatant lack of effort, it had all appearances of the game being rigged and players being paid off.

The way the receiver was surrounded by our DB's and it looked like not a single DB jumped up, or even raised a hand.

It looks as if all our DB's formed a circle around the receiver to sing Happy Birthday to him.

 was he surrounded? To me it looked like there was no one in front of him to jump up.  They allowed the receivers to get in front so there was no real way to contest it

[NoVaSkins21]

Once they get destroyed by KC and GB, I think Rivera and JDR will think start to think about playing the younger players.  

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, carex said:

 was he surrounded? To me it looked like there was no one in front of him to jump up.  They allowed the receivers to get in front so there was no real way to contest it

 

I mean literally no one put a hand up or jumped.  I don't understand, as a defensive player, how that is not your instinct on literally every play.

[Brokenstriker]

I think it's glaringly obvious ... WFT needs a serious improvement in LB talent ... particularly MLB, and a coverage/free safety.  I think the heat the D line is getting is more a reflection of the defense's inability to cover receivers, and a huge missing run stuffing LB.  I get that the LBs aren't great or maybe even good in coverage but that isn't very unusual and could be addressed (more or less like it has been) by having a big safety play "LB" in certain sets.  More coverage time means more QB hurries/hits and sacks.  Run stuffing LB in the middle means those gashing hope killing runs are fewer and farther between.  

I hope there's good reasons the WFT hasn't snapped up one of the still excellent MLBs on the FA market or found/converted an answer for free safety.  I'm not down on Jamin but I am curious why he's a virtual bench player when LB is such a problem.  Again I assume there's a good reason.

[wit33]

Do whatever the Bills are doing. The other 31 teams are horrible at defense as well. 
 

College football is officially here. 
 

[Warhead36]

7 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Do whatever the Bills are doing. The other 31 teams are horrible at defense as well. 
 

College football is officially here. 
 

The Bears held down a really good Raiders offense. The Steelers have played good defense all year.

 

There is still room for good defense. But you need personnel all over. You can't just overload one position.

[NoVaSkins21]

This defense is Dal@ss 2020 level historically bad.  They may need a complete tear down in the secondary and possibly a new DC like they did down there.  It's going to have to get worse before it gets better.

Edited October 11, 2021 by SAli457180

[wit33]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

The Bears held down a really good Raiders offense. The Steelers have played good defense all year.

 

There is still room for good defense. But you need personnel all over. You can't just overload one position.

For sure, definitely some hyperbole, but believe expectations of defense are lagging behind a bit with most media and fans. 
 

A hypothesis of mine is you must 4.3/4.4 speed at LB/S and 4-5 of these guys. Another speculative position is the MLB/S-Money backer will challenge the DE spot as the highest paid position on defense over next 10 years. 
 

For Example, to use all time greats for clarity purposes, I’d rather have Ed Reed, Sean Taylor, and Polamalu types playing most zones 10 yards and up early in downs, basically a money LB. Let the lesser athletes worry about the deep ball stuff, the value is having the freaks in the short to intermediate areas of the field.

 

Jalen Ramsey, Derwin James, and Jamaal Adams come to mind in how these teams are choosing to use their freaks. They’ve decided to unleash them all over and wreck havoc closer to the line of scrimmage versus consistently being 15-40 yards from the play throughout a game. These teams are ahead of the curve. Put William Jackson in this type of role and let him fly around. The freaks need to be used more creatively. 

 

Complete ignorant fan view, but believe it lol. 
 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by wit33

[ThomasRoane]

40 minutes ago, Brokenstriker said:

 I'm not down on Jamin but I am curious why he's a virtual bench player when LB is such a problem.  Again I assume there's a good reason.

 

That is a curious situation.  Physically, he's doing well.  So it must be mental gaffes.  If so, why is he the only one losing playing time?!?!?  You can't be successful with a double standard.  If you're going to withhold playing time from a rookie just learning then you damn sure should be treating highly paid vets who should know better the same!  That's a good way to lose your players confidence. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by ThomasRoane

[IrepDC]

5 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

That is a curious situation.  Physically, he's doing well.  So it must be mental gaffes.  If so, why is he the only one losing playing time?!?!?  You can't be successful with a double standard.  If you're going to withhold playing time from a rookie just learning then you damn sure should be treating highly paid vets who should know better the same!  That's a good way to lose your players confidence. 

I wonder about this too. I did see Jamin misread a run play yesterday, and he seemed to get taken out the majority of the game after. Like you said though, he's a rookie; and we have veterans misreading plays, missing assignments, missing tackles, and missing coverages. To be so critical of Jamin while continuously allowing Collins, for example, to make mistake after mistake doesn't help the coaches credibility. 

 

There may be more to it that we don't know about, but it is getting alarming. This was around the time I was expecting it to start clicking for Jamin, but he hasn't been on the field enough to get through his growing pains. The fact we have thrown every other top pick into the fire, no problem, makes it even more confusing. 

 

Davis has flashed when on the field, but apparently the coaches don't think he's ready yet. I can't say I trust their judgment right now.

[Warhead36]

Davis can at least run with guys in man to man. Maybe he can't figure out zones yet, but then again neither can Jackson or Collins and they're high priced veterans. I'd rather roll with a young guy so he can learn and develop. But nothing about this defense is logical at all.

[Wildbunny]

12 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

It's utterly mind-boggling to watch and re-watch the last play of the half.

It was such a blatant lack of effort, it had all appearances of the game being rigged and players being paid off.

The way the receiver was surrounded by our DB's and it looked like not a single DB jumped up, or even raised a hand.

It looks as if all our DB's formed a circle around the receiver to sing Happy Birthday to him.

Yeah If I'm a player for this Offense, I get mad at half-time for this lack of effort and would have killed someone. They're dealing injuries on almost every positions, the OL is keeping the pocket clean, you get guys like Milne, a 7th rounder that does an impressive catch on the sideline, his first ever. And you don't deliver at this point? That's madness.

If I'm the HC, I get mad and bench everyone of them. And I don't give a **** if I have to play Curl, Everett, Reaves, Milne and Humphries for the whole second half. I'll have them play zone/man all day long and ride with it. Doesn't matter if they score 50 in the second half. They can even take a shower ASAP and go home. Don't need them on the field, or anywhere close to it.

- No one jump.

- No one raised hand.

- Crap, I wouldn't even complained if one did one beautiful blatant DPI to prevent the TD and have them kick a FG on a bonus down.

 

Heck Collins even took the luxury to throw his DC under the bus saying they were unprepared. Nice from you guy, but at some point Del Rio is not on the field anymore. And if he was, even at his age he would probably play with more heart than those guys are showing.

 

Those guys in the secondary are just unbearable. I still can't believe they think they played good... I wouldn't complain if they'd been cut on monday morning, then resigned guys like Moreland or Reed Doughty. They aren't world beaters, but at least they're moving their asses on the field.

[PartyPosse]

There is literally no accountability for poor play and the players are allowed to just go out and absolve themselves of the mess. Nothing is going to change until the players are held responsible. It’s a travesty what they get away with now.

[ThomasRoane]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Davis can at least run with guys in man to man. Maybe he can't figure out zones yet, but then again neither can Jackson or Collins and they're high priced veterans. I'd rather roll with a young guy so he can learn and develop. But nothing about this defense is logical at all.

 

Yes!  I've been essentially the same thing.  He's big and athletic.  Surely he can handle covering the opposing pass-catching TE!  And he can damn sure do so better than Collins!  I'll be at the game this Sunday with an end zone view.  Which is my favorite because you can really see how the play develops and how the defense reacts.  I'll definitely be keeping an eye on 52.  I like the kid.  Give him, Hudson, Forrest, etc. some time on the  field to learn and grow.  What season are you trying to save after all?  The offense is looking like the Band of Brothers after a couple of days and nights of constant shelling.  They're limping right now and there's no way they can carry this team.  We're not winning the NFC east.  We're not making the playoffs.  Make some investments in the future.  The fans are not stupid.  We can put up with young guys making mistakes.  This garbage on display now though is not acceptable.  

[Skinsinparadise]

yesterday according to PFF

 

 

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

yesterday according to PFF

 

 

I kinda felt bad for Cole. Dude was straight out hung out to dry all game. I remember that one play where he was on Kamara streaking down the sidelines and Winston overthrew him. I’m like, “how does that even happen??”

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, IrepDC said:

The money you don't give our DL will end up going to FAs and we consistently waste money on FAs. We have over $20 million a year on the bench with Fitz and Samuel right now. When we allow Payne or Sweat to walk, and pay a FA like Jackson or Collins, it will "look better" I guess because the money was spread, but our team won't be better. Teams should adapt based on what they have. Simply letting talent walk with no other talent to pay, will not be what elevates this team to the next level. 

 

Your assumption though is predicated on team building directed by signing outside FAs and you are worried that they will fail at it.  Also it seems predicated on things staying like they are now. 

 

If they stay like now, its actually a depressing thought.  We got some great young bucks playing the D line but yet we arguably one of the 5 worst teams in the NFL.  If i thought those 4 D lineman can lead this team to glory as the key unit and we just keep building around those 4, I'd be with you.  But great-consistent teams tend to build around a QB not the D line or for that matter any other spot.  And look paying three guys on the D line 20-25 million is pretty top heavy for a position.  And I am good with that.   Your argument is going top heavy isn't enough -- you want to go full out where they end up spending more money at that spot than any team in the league and likely by a good margin, 

 

The balanced teams tend to do best eveything being equal.  Tampa was loaded everywhere.    Yeah a QB could change the need to be balanced.

 

What if Cosmi develops into a franchise LT, and you got to pay him big?  What if they find a QB?   What if they do find a shutdown corner and have to pay them?  What if they don't strike out in the draft or FA?

 

Your point seems to be the bird in hand is best.  I'd agree if we are talking a QB but I don't think you can afford to overdo it money wise with any spot on the team sans QB assuming you got the right QB.   It's not IMO about assuming success or lack thereof in personnel quests.  There is a reason why Joel Corry and the Over the Cap guys, etc focus on how much money teams spend per position.  The reason being is there is a method to the madness for it. 

 

The Steelers and Ravens are two of the most models of consistency but they let some of their guys go.  The best analogy i can think of is you want to rebalance your portfolio every now and then othewise the lack of diversity in your portfolio can come and burn you. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Skinsinparadise