The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

[Spaceman Spiff]

On 6/7/2022 at 7:32 AM, Cooked Crack said:

 

 

That takes some balls.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

21 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

That takes some balls.

[Corcaigh]

On 6/7/2022 at 7:32 AM, Cooked Crack said:

 

it’s good to see that the NFL is making efforts to bring back the folks who stopped being fans because of kneeling during the anthem.

 

I wonder how big the intersection is between people who like the idea of sexualized cheerleaders such as in the NFL and people who want to look at trans women attired in this way.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Corcaigh

[Cooked Crack]

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[tshile]

Yeah. That’s the point. After 12, you stay in the category that reflects genetic capabilities. 

[LadySkinsFan]

An open competition category is a great idea. Anyone can enter this competition while leaving the female and male categories as they've always been according to sex not gender.

[PokerPacker]

Are men's sports not already open to women if they were capable of competing at that level?

[LadySkinsFan]

2 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

Are men's sports not already open to women if they were capable of competing at that level?

 

I doubt it. If you find some, I'd be interested in knowing.  I'm not going to look it up.

[The Evil Genius]

2 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

Are men's sports not already open to women if they were capable of competing at that level?

 

3 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

I doubt it. If you find some, I'd be interested in knowing.  I'm not going to look it up.

 

At the high school level, it's usually sports that do not have a female team offered (like football and wrestling).

[bcl05]

megan rapinoe has thought more about and fought for womens sports and equality issues than nearly anyone else on the planet.   I’ll defer to her expertise.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

30 minutes ago, bcl05 said:

megan rapinoe has thought more about and fought for womens sports and equality issues than nearly anyone else on the planet.   I’ll defer to her expertise.  

All due respect to Megan Rapinoe, but it's pretty easy to hold that opinion when you're a star-caliber player and have already "made it" in a sport. It's not much different than Michael Jordan telling his cute "getting cut from freshman basketball was the best thing that ever happened to me" anecdote after he's hoisted his 6th NBA championship trophy. It's all well and good for those people, but I'd love to hear Megan's opinion on this if she (or her daughter) was a marginally gifted female athlete who was fighting tooth and nail to make varsity at her high school. 

[Hersh]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

All due respect to Megan Rapinoe, but it's pretty easy to hold that opinion when you're a star-caliber player and have already "made it" in a sport. It's not much different than Michael Jordan telling his cute "getting cut from freshman basketball was the best thing that ever happened to me" anecdote after he's hoisted his 6th NBA championship trophy. It's all well and good for those people, but I'd love to hear Megan's opinion on this if she (or her daughter) was a marginally gifted female athlete who was fighting tooth and nail to make varsity at her high school. 

 

Do you know just how rare this is in HS? 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Ah yes, I too could only respect Rapinoe’s opinion if she was a fat loser with no known accomplishments and also had a daughter with very little athletic talent.

 

I wonder where we could find such expertise?!?

Edited June 20, 2022 by TradeTheBeal!

[PokerPacker]

9 hours ago, LadySkinsFan said:

I doubt it. If you find some, I'd be interested in knowing.  I'm not going to look it up.

Here's one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manon_Rhéaume

In 1992, Rhéaume signed a contract with the Tampa Bay Lightning of the NHL, appearing in preseason exhibition games in 1992 and 1993. She spent five years in professional minor leagues, playing for a total of seven teams and appearing in 24 games.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by PokerPacker

[tshile]

8 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

All due respect to Megan Rapinoe, but it's pretty easy to hold that opinion when you're a star-caliber player and have already "made it" in a sport. It's not much different than Michael Jordan telling his cute "getting cut from freshman basketball was the best thing that ever happened to me" anecdote after he's hoisted his 6th NBA championship trophy. It's all well and good for those people, but I'd love to hear Megan's opinion on this if she (or her daughter) was a marginally gifted female athlete who was fighting tooth and nail to make varsity at her high school. 

also, her entire point is that if it’s not rampant, then it doesn’t matter. 
 

which is a silly way to justify anything. 
 

[bcl05]

That's not her point, at all.  Her point is that the harm done by marginalizing, stigmatizing, and punishing a group of kids who are already threatened and vulnerable is much greater than the harm done by allowing them to participate in sports.  Someone's gonna get hurt, either way, and she would argue (and I would agree) that inclusion should be the default and that the degree of cruelty in the response is not merited by the magnitude of the "problem" incurred by including trans girls in sports.  

[LadySkinsFan]

10 hours ago, PokerPacker said:

Here's one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manon_Rhéaume

In 1992, Rhéaume signed a contract with the Tampa Bay Lightning of the NHL, appearing in preseason exhibition games in 1992 and 1993. She spent five years in professional minor leagues, playing for a total of seven teams and appearing in 24 games.

 

 

I see she didn't change her gender from female to male in order to compete as a male in the sport. Thanks for this example. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

18 hours ago, Hersh said:

 

Do you know just how rare this is in HS? 

What does that matter? Include middle school, all levels of club athletics, all levels of college...anything that girls work hard at, try out for, and care about. That's what the argument is right? That we should care THAT MUCH about everyone's feelings? Well, her opinion is showing that we don't care if this impacts even 7 (or 70 or 700 or 7,000) girls who eventually are nudged out by people who have an unfair advantage. 

 

18 hours ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Ah yes, I too could only respect Rapinoe’s opinion if she was a fat loser with no known accomplishments and also had a daughter with very little athletic talent.

 

I wonder where we could find such expertise?!?

Clever, but doesn't change the point. It's easy for some woman on the national team to not fear her status being challenged...I wonder if her opinion would be the same if she was struggling to make the team. That's all. 

 

11 hours ago, tshile said:

also, her entire point is that if it’s not rampant, then it doesn’t matter. 
 

which is a silly way to justify anything. 
 

Exactly...it's quite contradictory, in fact, to the entire trans situation. If we shouldn't care unless a lot of people are impacted, then why does she care if the small number of trans women get to play sports? See how that works? 

3 hours ago, bcl05 said:

That's not her point, at all.  Her point is that the harm done by marginalizing, stigmatizing, and punishing a group of kids who are already threatened and vulnerable is much greater than the harm done by allowing them to participate in sports.  Someone's gonna get hurt, either way, and she would argue (and I would agree) that inclusion should be the default and that the degree of cruelty in the response is not merited by the magnitude of the "problem" incurred by including trans girls in sports.  

Inclusion is easy. Let kids play sports - just don't harm other kids to do it. What is so wrong about Lia Thomas swimming with men? How is that not inclusive? 

[bearrock]

22 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

Inclusion is easy. Let kids play sports - just don't harm other kids to do it. What is so wrong about Lia Thomas swimming with men? How is that not inclusive? 

 

You're too easily glossing over Rapinoe's point about the absence of a perfect solution.  If society never mixed gender and biological birth sex, this wouldn't be an issue (or recognized that gender as it pertained to behavioral characteristics is a different word for prejudices and stereotypes).  But we have for ages and here we are.

 

To tell Lia Thomas to compete with men instead of women is to say you're a women, but only kind of.  To bump off a biological female from a team for a trans female is harmful to the bumped athlete too.  Absence of a perfect solution.  At this point, both situations are pretty rare.  I'm not sure what addresses the first, but second situation in high school and below, you can probably just allow the team to add or reserve extra spots for trans athletes.  Is it perfect?  No.  But it's rare enough and low stakes enough that it seems to be a decent solution while we figure it out.

 

For situations where money is involved, the central question is at what point after hormone treatment is the natural biological advantage wiped out.  That requires more scientific study as I understand it.  FINA has gone very conservative and set it at a level that pretty much excludes trans athlete.  In the absence of scientific evidence to the contrary, I think they can make that decision.  Hopefully more studies will help us understand what effect transition has in the long term.

[tshile]

4 hours ago, bcl05 said:

That's not her point, at all.  Her point is that the harm done by marginalizing, stigmatizing, and punishing a group of kids who are already threatened and vulnerable is much greater than the harm done by allowing them to participate in sports.  Someone's gonna get hurt, either way, and she would argue (and I would agree) that inclusion should be the default and that the degree of cruelty in the response is not merited by the magnitude of the "problem" incurred by including trans girls in sports.  

Um. No. Not even close. 
 

Her opening statement is a demand to “show me where trans people are taking everyone’s <list of concerns people have>”

 

so, quite clearly it is her point. 
 

you’re pretending the only way to be inclusive and not marginalize people and not cause harm is to let them play in woman’s sports. 
 

that’s something you, and others, have completely made up and isn’t true at all. That’s not the only way. 
 

they can play in mens sports, and be included, and not be marginalized. It’s not what you want - which is fine.   But it doesn’t make your answer the only answer, and painting it as such doesn’t make it so. 

Also - the whole “it’s not rampant” is pretty much most peoples point. 
 

see: the many references to how rare of a situation it is

 

”this potential concern doesn’t matter cause it doesn’t happen that much” is a terrible way to analyze things. 
 

The question is if the concern is warranted to do something different 

 

trans are <1% of the population. I imagine trans athletes even more so. By definition it’s rare. You can’t demand something change for such a significantly small number of people, and handwave away concerns because it won’t happen that often. That’s terrible and inconsistent reasoning. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

17 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

You're too easily glossing over Rapinoe's point about the absence of a perfect solution.  If society never mixed gender and biological birth sex, this wouldn't be an issue (or recognized that gender as it pertained to behavioral characteristics is a different word for prejudices and stereotypes).  But we have for ages and here we are.

 

To tell Lia Thomas to compete with men instead of women is to say you're a women, but only kind of.  To bump off a biological female from a team for a trans female is harmful to the bumped athlete too.  Absence of a perfect solution.  At this point, both situations are pretty rare.  I'm not sure what addresses the first, but second situation in high school and below, you can probably just allow the team to add or reserve extra spots for trans athletes.  Is it perfect?  No.  But it's rare enough and low stakes enough that it seems to be a decent solution while we figure it out.

 

For situations where money is involved, the central question is at what point after hormone treatment is the natural biological advantage wiped out.  That requires more scientific study as I understand it.  FINA has gone very conservative and set it at a level that pretty much excludes trans athlete.  In the absence of scientific evidence to the contrary, I think they can make that decision.  Hopefully more studies will help us understand what effect transition has in the long term.

 

I guess adding an extra spot for trans athletes is fine. And, I don't mean to attack your idea since you've stated it's not a perfect solution, but that doesn't help the UVA girl who doesn't get a medal while Lia Thomas does. So, she might "make the team" but her hard work and sacrifice is not rewarded. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

53 minutes ago, tshile said:

Um. No. Not even close. 
 

Her opening statement is a demand to “show me where trans people are taking everyone’s <list of concerns people have>”

 

so, quite clearly it is her point. 
 

you’re pretending the only way to be inclusive and not marginalize people and not cause harm is to let them play in woman’s sports. 
 

that’s something you, and others, have completely made up and isn’t true at all. That’s not the only way. 
 

they can play in mens sports, and be included, and not be marginalized. It’s not what you want - which is fine.   But it doesn’t make your answer the only answer, and painting it as such doesn’t make it so. 

Also - the whole “it’s not rampant” is pretty much most peoples point. 
 

see: the many references to how rare of a situation it is

 

”this potential concern doesn’t matter cause it doesn’t happen that much” is a terrible way to analyze things. 
 

The question is if the concern is warranted to do something different 

 

trans are <1% of the population. I imagine trans athletes even more so. By definition it’s rare. You can’t demand something change for such a significantly small number of people, and handwave away concerns because it won’t happen that often. That’s terrible and inconsistent reasoning. 

 

Not even remotely do I think you're accurate.

 

She doesn't start off with her point...She starts off building her case by talking about things that back up her point. Which is:

 

"We really need to kind of take a step back and get a grip on what we're really talking about here because people's lives are at risk."

 

And then for the people in the back, she adds at the end:

 

"We're putting everything through God forbid a trans person be successful in sports."

 

Meaning, we're focusing on the wrong thing. We need to focus on what's truly important here--and success in sports is NOT it. That was her point.

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Not even remotely do I think you're accurate.

It’s the first sentence. 
 

and it’s mentioned over and over in this thread. It’s mentioned by two different posters on this thread alone. And it’s constantly brought up. 
 

sorry, but the rarity of it is a staple of the argument of the people saying they should be able to play on womens teams. And it’s an awful argument. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

It’s the first sentence. 
 

and it’s mentioned over and over in this thread. It’s mentioned by two different posters on this thread alone. And it’s constantly brought up. 
 

sorry, but the rarity of it is a staple of the argument of the people saying they should be able to play on womens teams. And it’s an awful argument. 

 

- You must not have read past my first sentence. This came afterwards: "She doesn't start off with her point..."

 

- As far as I can tell, Rapinoe isn't posting on this thread. So it doesn't matter if it's mentioned over and over on this thread. We are talking about the point of someone who isn't posting here.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated