The Vaccine Thread

[bearrock]

14 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

There is some concerning things I am reading about elevated blood clots and vaccine-related deaths that MDs are having issues reporting.  It's really hard to flesh out with all the happy talk.  Seems like responsible people don't want to come off anti-Vax, but government is not being exactly open and honest.  

 

You are welcome to share any reputable sources that you're reading those things from or if not entirely clear, share in "this source says this, can anyone shed more light on this?" kind of way.  I don't think anyone here wants to shovel away genuine concerns (nor have I gotten that vibe from the government, but of course, I may be wrong on that).

Edited April 20, 2021 by bearrock

[Fergasun]

Here:

 

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/04/the-cdcs-vaers-and-vaccine-complications-the-system-is-broken.html

[gbear]

The J&J vaccine blood clots evidently are a lot like the blood clots seen with Heparin (heart med).  As I understand it (likely poorly as I am not a doctor), the issue is the type of blood clot responds very poorly to the traditional treatments for blood clots. On the truely tangential side, when I got out of college twenty some odd years ago, I did some survey work for a company trying to figure out whether it was worth continuing developing an alternative to Heparin.  I was trying to get cadiologists to talk about whether they had patients who experienced problems with Heparin.  To this day, I don't know whether so few with whom I talked said they had patients with problems from heparin because that was true or because they did not want to admit to anything that might open them up to the perception they thought they made a mistake using Heparin (possible malpractice?).  

 

The blood clots from the J&J vaccine are treatable, just not with the normal blood clot treatments.  It is worth noting, we are talking about 6 cases with one fatality out of roughly 7 million patients.  We had an on-line forum with public health expert from the CDC this morning, and he stressed just how rare this side effect is, and it has not even been causally linked to the J&J vaccine yet.   He was saying this to sooth those who had taken it or had loved ones who had taken it.  He didn't think there was much cause for concern.

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by gbear

[China]

Amy Klobuchar takes aim at 12 vaccine misinformation influencers

 

As the Covid-19 vaccine rollout continues across the US, some lawmakers are concerned that ongoing misinformation and disinformation campaigns are exacerbating vaccine hesitancy. Now, two senators are turning their attention to the vaccine misinformation superspreaders that push the bulk of conspiracy theories and lies on social media — and asking the social media giants to take more aggressive action.

 

“For too long, social media platforms have failed to adequately protect Americans by not taking sufficient action to prevent the spread of vaccine disinformation online,” wrote Sens. Amy Klobuchar (D-MN) and Ben Ray Luján (D-NM) in a Friday letter to Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey, which was viewed by Recode. “Despite your policies intended to prevent vaccine disinformation, many of these accounts continue to post content that reach millions of users, repeatedly violating your policies with impunity.”

 

In particular, the senators urged the companies to take action against 12 anti-vaccine influencers — 11 individuals and one couple — who spread anti-vaccine content on the internet. These accounts include Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who has pushed distrust in vaccines, and Joseph Mercola, an online alternative medicine proponent who was recently flagged by the Food and Drug Administration for promoting fake Covid-19 cures, including through his still-active Twitter account.

 

These 12 entities were identified in a report published last month by the Center for Countering Digital Hate, a nonprofit focused on online hate and misinformation. To find these 12 influencers, researchers identified 10 private and 20 public anti-vaccine Facebook groups, whose sizes ranged between 2,500 and 235,000 members. The researchers then analyzed links posted in these groups and tracked the sources of their links.

 

They found that up to 73 percent of that content, including posts sharing it across Facebook, came from websites affiliated with these 12 superspreaders, who have built reputations in the anti-vaccine online world through multiple accounts on various social media services. More broadly, up to 65 percent of anti-vaccine content on both Facebook and Twitter identified by the researchers seemed to come from these entities. At the time of the report’s publication in March, nine of these superspreaders were active on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[gbear]

Wow, so 25% of the U.S. population still distrusts the vaccines and do not plan to get one.  Just think of the impact these 12 people have had convincing millions of peopleno to get a vaccine.  They are indirectly responsible for millions of deaths, and yet nothing bad will likely to happen to them as a result.

[Sticksboi05]

20 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

Here:

 

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/04/the-cdcs-vaers-and-vaccine-complications-the-system-is-broken.html

 

I think the fact that they were willing to pause JNJ after 6 cases identified in 7 million doses is a good, telling sign. They are not going to take anything lightly. What would be unacceptable is if they saw this frequently in the trials and still said let's go for it without transparency.

 

I think the vaccine messaging from public health officials has been trash as far as convincing hesitant people to take it. And Fauci is leading the charge. It's more "safe and effective" generalities vs. giving people the full data. Essentially they feel the best way is to treat people like they're too dumb to get anything without a medical background. More information is good - tell people the risks, all of them, and explain how low the prevalence is. Explain why it may be, how you address it and why pausing makes everyone safer because even if you DO happen to suffer a rare side effect, you know what to keep watch for and treatments are ready.

[Xameil]

52 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

but government is not being exactly open and honest.  

 

[bearrock]

37 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

Here:

 

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/04/the-cdcs-vaers-and-vaccine-complications-the-system-is-broken.html

 

The following are the core of the grievances I see in that particular post:

 

1) inadequate and vague description of the issue by the government and press

Quote

Is it not interesting that all of the press releases and information online and on TV continually refer to “a very rare condition”, “blood clots”, “blood disorder” in very nebulous terms. That could literally encompass hundreds of different diagnoses.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0413-JJ-vaccine.html

 

Quote

CDC and FDA are reviewing data involving six reported U.S. cases of a rare and severe type of blood clot in individuals after receiving the J&J vaccine. In these cases, a type of blood clot called cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) was seen in combination with low levels of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia). All six cases occurred among women between the ages of 18 and 48, and symptoms occurred 6 to 13 days after vaccination. 

 

I'm not a medical expert so I'm not sure but CVST and thrombocytopenia seems like a specific diagnosis.

 

2) Inadequate communication in volume and specificity

Quote

The last big issue involving the CDC was the vaping/lung damage issue and I was getting daily e-mails. I am definitely on their email list. I have not received a word about any of this – nor at this point do I really expect to. I have found nothing that is an exact clinical description of what is happening to these patients and what to expect.

 

CDC's statement identifies the concern, symptoms, agency actions, and practice advisory.

 

3) inadequate guidance for practitioners

Quote

What I am able to glean from off-handed comments in a very few of the medical articles is that the use of any anti-coagulation agents especially heparin and lovenox, make things much worse. There is also apparently great concern about the newer agents like Eliquis and Xarelto. In other words, we have no treatment options. I am not exactly sure what we are supposed to do.

 

https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/2021/han00442.asp

Quote

Recommendations

For Clinicians

 

1. Pause the use of the J&J COVID-19 vaccine until the ACIP is able to further review these CVST cases in the context of thrombocytopenia and assess their potential significance.

2. Maintain a high index of suspicion for symptoms that might represent serious thrombotic events or thrombocytopenia in patients who have recently received the J&J COVID-19 vaccine, including severe headache, backache, new neurologic symptoms, severe abdominal pain, shortness of breath, leg swelling, petechiae (tiny red spots on the skin), or new or easy bruising. Obtain platelet counts and screen for evidence of immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia.

3. In patients with a thrombotic event and thrombocytopenia after the J&J COVID-19 vaccine, evaluate initially with a screening PF4 enzyme-linked immunosorbent (ELISA) assay as would be performed for autoimmune HIT. Consultation with a hematologist is strongly recommended.

4. Do not treat patients with thrombotic events and thrombocytopenia following receipt of J&J COVID-19 vaccine with heparin, unless HIT testing is negative.

5. If HIT testing is positive or unable to be performed in patient with thrombotic events and thrombocytopenia following receipt of J&J COVID-19 vaccine, non-heparin anticoagulants and high-dose intravenous immune globulin should be strongly considered.

6. Report adverse events to VAERS, including serious and life-threatening adverse events and deaths in patients following receipt of COVID-19 vaccines as required under the Emergency Use Authorizations for COVID-19 vaccines.

 

 

Those look like pretty specific guidances to me.

Edited April 20, 2021 by bearrock

[gbear]

What's more, the clotting issues from heparin has been known about for at least the last 20 years.  So the claim to not know what to do about the situation once recognized is at best misleading.

[NoCalMike]

My sister is one of those weird cases that is in no rush to get the  vaccine because she subscribes to the "I eat right and am healthy so I'm not worried"  theory.   Now, she is not anti-vaxx, and doesn't say she will never get it, more that she just doesn't see the need to "put something in my body, it's my choice, not going to be told what to do"  I tried telling her that this is a virus not a disease and when it comes to a virus it is about the spread more than just what it can do to the individual and that that vaccine is just as much about stopping the spread in which variants and different strains end up being created that could be worse.  I have a hard time reading her on this issue (not vaccines in general, just the covid vaccine specifically).  I understand why she didn't feel the need to rush out and get it, not to mention she is 38 and wasn't eligible until very recently anyway, but I have a hard time understanding her general hesitancy to get it.  She doesn't tend to be a selfish person but every reason she tries to run by me just comes off like that.  Being healthy has zero to do with catching a virus.  It might, actually probably does help the fight against it, but that does nothing to stop you from getting it in the first place and/or spread it.   Whatever, I said what I could.  I have a feeling she will get it eventually, like once it is so widely distributed that the hold overs will be offered it at a normal DR checkup if their medical records show them not having it already.

 

Also, the covid pandemic should be a wake up call to the world that we are pretty much toast if something else comes along that is as or more contagious but also more deadly.  As awful as the last year has been, it can get worse.  A lot worse.

[TheGreatBuzz]

54 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

I think the fact that they were willing to pause JNJ after 6 cases identified in 7 million doses is a good, telling sign.

 

I thought it was totally stupid and just gave deniers a talking point.  Know how when something is EXTREMELY unlikely to happen, we use the phrase "one in a million"?  J&J clots were even less than that.  You are 66 more times likely to get struck by lightening at some point in your life than this clotting issue.  Pausing the J&J made them just look scared.

 

Scared money don't make money.

[Fergasun]

@bearrock

The main issue I see (quoting in sequence but seperating the paragraphs:

Quote

In early January of this year, in my own patients, I began to notice in COVID vaccinated patients a small number who were having significant complications from various blood clotting issues.  These were very strange things that do not happen in the normal practice of medicine.  I emailed Yves and Lambert back then that I was becoming a bit concerned that this was happening. 

Quote

As has been my usual practice when there is a problem like this, I began following the VAERS system very carefully.  And to my great concern, I saw a very large number of cases of death and complications similar to what I was seeing.  The ratio of complications was quite startling – 100-200 times or so more than the control group of 2020 flu vaccines.   The VAERS system is currently reporting over 3000 deaths related to the Pfizer and Moderna COVID vaccines.  The numbers in the European registries are almost exactly in line with this as well.  I would guess from a simple perusal that about half these reports – both death and morbidity – are directly related to blood clotting issues.

Quote

VAERS was never a system meant to be perfectly accurate – but having a 100-200X difference in mortality rates should be attention-getting to everyone in medicine.  And yet instead of addressing this issue head-on, our medical leaders continued right on with the party line that EVERYTHING IS SAFE and GOING SWIMMINGLY – nothing to see here.   There were days that I felt like I was living in The Twilight Zone.

Again... I am taking my 2nd dose.  My wife just got her second dose.  But could there be long term clotting risks associated with the vaccines (note he is talking Pfizer and Moderna)?  But even with J&J, I don't buy they paused the vaccines due to 1 in a millions deaths.  There's probably more.  

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 hours ago, Sticksboi05 said:

Then we still have mass amounts of people on the "we don't know if the vaccine curbs transmission" train when that is old news now and we know it does. Just way to slow to update the file from the CDC and others throughout this entire thing.

 

If that is the case, who do you blame for that?

[TheDoyler23]

51 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

My sister is one of those weird cases that is in no rush to get the  vaccine because she subscribes to the "I eat right and am healthy so I'm not worried"  theory.   Now, she is not anti-vaxx, and doesn't say she will never get it, more that she just doesn't see the need to "put something in my body, it's my choice, not going to be told what to do"  I tried telling her that this is a virus not a disease and when it comes to a virus it is about the spread more than just what it can do to the individual and that that vaccine is just as much about stopping the spread in which variants and different strains end up being created that could be worse.  I have a hard time reading her on this issue (not vaccines in general

 

Getting vaccinated if you are medically able to do so is just an extension of those preventative measures like wearing a mask. "I'm going to do this as a act of service to the next person, even if I don't know them, because the end of the chain of viral spread stops with me."  

 

 

 

 

[bearrock]

On 4/20/2021 at 3:55 PM, Fergasun said:

@bearrock

The main issue I see (quoting in sequence but seperating the paragraphs:

Again... I am taking my 2nd dose.  My wife just got her second dose.  But could there be long term clotting risks associated with the vaccines (note he is talking Pfizer and Moderna)?  But even with J&J, I don't buy they paused the vaccines due to 1 in a millions deaths.  There's probably more.  

 

I just want to preface it by saying that I have not and would not lump you in as some hysterical anti-vaxxer just because you have concerns about the dangers or side effects of the vaccine being underestimated or under reported.  I'm sure we all have varying degrees of concerns and apprehensions and insisting that our experts and government address and explain the answer to those concerns in a thorough and respectful manner is perfect valid and wise.  We have a good and respectful forum for discussion here, just wanted to say that upfront.

 

Looks like the VAERS claim has been floating around in some varying forms and have been fact checked.  https://www.factcheck.org/2021/02/scicheck-instagram-post-makes-invalid-comparison-between-covid-19-and-flu-vaccines/

 

The central issue is one of correlation vs causality.  The government has been very diligent in advising everyone (both vaccine provider, patient, and the medical community at large), to report any adverse event after the covid vaccination.  Our personal experience tells us that this is a far more aggressive campaign to track adverse events compared to any other vaccine.  Thus, it would not be surprising that more post-covid vaccine adverse events are being reported compared to the seasonal flu vaccine.

 

But if we stopped there, it would of course be a possibility that there is indeed a causation between higher reports of death after covid vaccine vs the flu vaccine.  That's why VAERS data is open to the public and experts from the CDC actively investigate serious adverse events by looking at cause of death, coroner's reports, etc.  They have thus far concluded that these deaths were not caused by the vaccine (except one of the J&J cases, I think).

 

Another piece of information is interesting.  Covid vaccine target group, until recently, have been skewed towards the elderly and other health issues.  During the initial rollout to long term care residents, CDC apparently expected to see far more deaths among recipients from the first million batch (not as an issue of causation, but correlation).  Instead, they saw far less. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-vaers-idUSKBN2AE0QQ

Quote

The CDC estimates that about 1.3 million COVID-19 vaccine doses were administered to residents in long-term care facilities as of Jan. 18, 2021. Given this, the CDC expected to see a background mortality of 11,440 deaths (slide 36 here), which is multiple times higher than the number of VAERS reports in the dataset.

 

We also have to consider that US is not the only country dealing with the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines.  We see how different countries react differently to adverse events.  When unexplained clots became an issue with Astrazeneca, some European countries continued vaccination, some paused, and some shut it down altogether.  Thus, if there was a wide spread serious side effect with the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines that made it several hundred times to nearly a thousand times more dangerous than the seasonal flu vaccine, it is difficult to imagine that not only the US government and experts would stay silent on it, but so would every other country in the world, including some who were much more aggressive in shutting down Astrazeneca.

Edited April 22, 2021 by bearrock

[Sticksboi05]

54 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I thought it was totally stupid and just gave deniers a talking point.  Know how when something is EXTREMELY unlikely to happen, we use the phrase "one in a million"?  J&J clots were even less than that.  You are 66 more times likely to get struck by lightening at some point in your life than this clotting issue.  Pausing the J&J made them just look scared.

 

Scared money don't make money.

 

I disagree, I think they had a duty to be fully transparent no matter how rare, and to ensure there is protocol for future cases no matter how rare they are. It's more about ensuring medical practitioners know what to do if their patients present with such symptoms.

51 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

If that is the case, who do you blame for that?

 

Public health agencies like the CDC slow to update their recommendations and messaging. Media has been out in front on new research and suggesting we change behaviors.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

Public health agencies like the CDC slow to update their recommendations and messaging. Media has been out in front on new research and suggesting we change behaviors.

 

So the presidential administration that literally stopped them from doing just that under threat of penalty played no role in things?...Interesting.

 

 

 

Trump threatened to fire CDC's chief of respiratory diseases in February: report

 

President Trump nearly fired a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) official after she said in February that the agency was preparing for a pandemic, according to The Wall Street Journal.

 

“It’s not a question of if this will happen but when this will happen and how many people in this country will have severe illnesses,” Nancy Messonnier, the director of the CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, said on Feb. 25. 

 

According to the Journal, Trump was angry with Messonnier after her statement resulted in a dip in the stock market. The same day, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar said the virus was “contained” in the U.S.

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/494187-trump-threatened-to-fire-cdcs-chief-of-respiratory-diseases-in

[TheGreatBuzz]

15 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

disagree, I think they had a duty to be fully transparent no matter how rare, and to ensure there is protocol for future cases no matter how rare they are. It's more about ensuring medical practitioners know what to do if their patients present with such symptoms.

Im fine with them announcing the issue.  But I don’t agree with the amount of coverage or the pause.  

[Sticksboi05]

26 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

So the presidential administration that literally stopped them from doing just that under threat of penalty played no role in things?...Interesting.

 

 

What does that have to do with the delays in messaging that have continued under the Biden administration? Also I don't think Trump would stop the CDC from messaging things positive on the vaccines that would give his ego maniacal ass more credit for Warp Speed.

[GhostofSparta]

Update 24 hours later (Pfizer shot):

 

My arm is a little sore, but I sleep on my side (and I toss and turn a lot, so I couldn't just not sleep on the side I got the shot). It really just feels like I have a bruise on my arm, nothing more painful than that.

 

No fever, no other symptoms. I drank a gallon of water yesterday and already a half gallon today, which is supposed to help with that. The only other side effect was a little bit of fatigue, but that just meant I slept like a rock last night so I won't complain about that.

[The Evil Genius]

It was the mohawk. 

[GhostofSparta]

8 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

It was the mohawk. 

And now I want to see Fitzmagic rock a mohawk so badly. It's the only thing missing from his look.

[China]

FDA inspection of Emergent's COVID-19 vaccine plant identifies 'potential quality issues'

 

Shares of Emergent BioSolutions Inc. EBS, -0.21% were up 1.3% in trading on Wednesday after the Food and Drug Administration said it inspected a plant in Baltimore that had been scheduled to begin producing Johnson & Johnson's JNJ, 0.09% COVID-19 vaccine after reports emerged of cross-contamination in vaccine production there. J&J confirmed several weeks ago that quality standards had not been met at the Emergent facility. The FDA said that none of the vaccines produced at the facility in question have been distributed, and Emergent is working to address the regulator's concerns.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[China]

 

[Dan T.]

**** that orange ****.  If the world never hears from him again we are all better off.