Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Skinsinparadise]

Sheehan said he poked with multiple sources with the team on Trey Lance.  And they didn't respond to him.  He took that as maybe the interest is genuine because he typically doesn't get silence.  He said usually they'd confirm/say maybe or shoot it down.   He felt the silence was unusual and perhaps telling. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

38 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Sheehan said he poked with multiple sources with the team on Trey Lance.  And they didn't respond to him.  He took that as maybe the interest is genuine because he typically doesn't get silence.  He said usually they'd confirm/say maybe or shoot it down.   He felt the silence was unusual and perhaps telling. 

it’ll be interesting to see if we bring a couple more ‘decent’ FA’s in before the draft. RR said this week about roster evaluation pre draft. If we do make a couple of moves in need positions for example, that could give a slight indication that we may be strongly considering trading picks away to move up. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

it’ll be interesting to see if we bring a couple more ‘decent’ FA’s in before the draft. RR said this week about roster evaluation pre draft. If we do make a couple of moves in need positions for example, that could give a slight indication that we may be strongly considering trading picks away to move up. 

 

Good point.  This is just a guess maybe the plan is to wait to see if Lance or whomever lands at the Lions pick.  I think that is likely the pivot point.  Lions supposedly telegraphed they want to trade down.    Cincy supposedly doesn't want to trade down.  Ditto Miami.

 

Atlanta is obviously trying to jack up trade interest.  The irony is if they are promoting Dallas' interest in their pick from the context of getting Pitts that if anything might reassure our FO that they could get a QB at 7.

[Est.1974]

Makes you wonder how hot a commodity Lance is considered. And how much we like him. Got to think if we are very hot on him, you may have to be very aggressive. I’d be pretty excited if we got him to be honest. Other teams above us may think the same, NE perhaps? They’ve decided to go wild this offseason. Unless they are still waiting on Jimmy G.
 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Makes you wonder how hot a commodity Lance is considered. And how much we like him. Got to think if we are very hot on him, you may have to be very aggressive. I’d be pretty excited if we got him to be honest. Other teams above us may think the same, NE perhaps? They’ve decided to go wild this offseason. Unless they are still waiting on Jimmy G.
 

 

I'd be more jazzed about Fields but I can get into Lance.   Lance is brimming with talent and if they think they can develop him -- that's enough for me.  

 

My current theory is this.   We've heard multiple times that Rivera really digs Buffalo and how they built that organization.  Ditto what his mentor Andy Reid did to get his QB in KC.  Both dudes traded up for a QB and gave up some but nothing too crazy.   In the Bills case they traded to pick #7.  Ironically the same pick that the Lions have.

 

I don't think they trade up to #4.  Price is too high.  They gamble that their guy goes to #7 and then try to make a trade. 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[actorguy1]

17 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

it’ll be interesting to see if we bring a couple more ‘decent’ FA’s in before the draft. RR said this week about roster evaluation pre draft. If we do make a couple of moves in need positions for example, that could give a slight indication that we may be strongly considering trading picks away to move up. 

It's very rare to bring in FA's very close to the draft. FO's are now super focused on their draft big boards and often completely ignore FA until after the draft.

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'd be more jazzed about Fields but I can get into Lance.   Lance is brimming with talent and if they think they can develop him -- that's enough for me.  

 

My current theory is this.   We've heard multiple times that Rivera really digs Buffalo and how they built that organization.  Ditto what his mentor Andy Reid did to get his QB in KC.  Both dudes traded up for a QB and gave up some but nothing too crazy.   In the Bills case they traded to pick #7.  Ironically the same pick that the Lions have.

 

I don't think they trade up to #4.  Price is too high.  They gamble that their guy goes to #7 and then try to make a trade. 

 

 

Part of the Bills trade up that year involved sending OT Cordy Glenn to the Bengals to move up. Perhaps a DT from our team could be involved in a trade up this year or next.

[HigSkin]

John Keim on The Junkies just now and he basically said:

 

1)  QB is definitely in play

2)  He's trended toward day 2 pick and keeps coming back to Kyle Trask

3)  He sees it hard to trade up but depends to what spot

4)  If they did it, he sees future picks and keeping this years picks like what SF did

5)  He explained to EB about picking a guy and who do they get rid of that Allen, Heineke and Montez are all back-ups - building a better roster theory

6)  Getting Fitz allows them to go get their guy whoever that is.  Darnold would not have allowed them that flexibility

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

To me, picking up Fitz gives us the ability to actually draft and develop a raw QB like Lance.  Should that happen, only question is who goes - Kyle Allen?

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, CurseReversed said:

I really don't know if there is truth to these rumors or not, but this smoke of SF wanting Jones must really have you worried that your surefire interpretation of Jones value is not as rock solid as you thought.  Not that SF is the end all and be all of QB scouting either, but if they do draft him at 3, you got to be thinking...did I miss something?

 

Elite traits are great, but if you look at the list of NFL greats, its a totally different list of elite traits they have.  Now..those might be harder to project but we aren't football guru's either, at least I am not.   It is a changing league and maybe I would take FIelds at 3 too, but I love Jones and If I could get him and another top guy I would do it. 

 

 

I'm not all that "worried" about my interpretation of Jones being wrong. I've been wrong about QBs before and I will be in the future as well, I'm sure. I don't really care if SF takes him or not...in fact I'd love it if they did because that would push guys like Fields and Lance one step closer to us. I'm just thinking of it from a pure football point of view and what physical traits the elite QBs of today (outside of the GOAT) all seem to have and it's not what Jones has...and then thinking of just how much capital SF is putting into their choice.

 

Then again, Kyle is a dude with a healthy ego so I'm sure it's possible that he could see Jones's limited physical traits and think he's the coach who could still make him an elite QB in a league where the top tier all have those things that Jones lacks. 

 

Like I said, we'll find out soon enough.

[HigSkin]

21 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

To me, picking up Fitz gives us the ability to actually draft and develop a raw QB like Lance.  Should that happen, only question is who goes - Kyle Allen?

 

Good question.  The discussion on The Junkies centered around how Allen had zero cap hit to cut.

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

Good question.  The discussion on The Junkies centered around how Allen had zero cap hit to cut.

 

I think some of it will also depend on Allen's health. If he's healthy or they think he will be for the season, who to cut could go either way I'd guess. I know Allen has no cap hit but it's not like cutting Heinicke would cripple us with a $1.5 million dead cap hit. Allen is a much more known commodity than Heinicke so they might be more comfortable with that in their backup. Who knows though.

[CurseReversed]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm not all that "worried" about my interpretation of Jones being wrong. I've been wrong about QBs before and I will be in the future as well, I'm sure. I don't really care if SF takes him or not...in fact I'd love it if they did because that would push guys like Fields and Lance one step closer to us. I'm just thinking of it from a pure football point of view and what physical traits the elite QBs of today (outside of the GOAT) all seem to have and it's not what Jones has...and then thinking of just how much capital SF is putting into their choice.

 

Then again, Kyle is a dude with a healthy ego so I'm sure it's possible that he could see Jones's limited physical traits and think he's the coach who could still make him an elite QB in a league where the top tier all have those things that Jones lacks. 

 

Like I said, we'll find out soon enough.

To be fair that statement is not necessarily true.  Your going to hate this but... Tom Brady does not have those things that Jones lacks and he is still winning consistently at age 43.    As much as this may seem an outlier, the truth is that there have been many great QB's recent enough to be relevant that did not have these top tier athletic traits.  Brees, Manning, Brady, just to name of few.   Even other guys like Ben and Russel have been successful without having the full physical tool kit.   We see A lot of these up an coming QB's and say this is the new era, and the essential recipe, but besides KC and maybe Green Bay, nobody has really proved it.  Allen had a Breakout year and I think he will be great, but we also thought the same of Carson Wentz once upon a time.  The winning formula for consistent success for an NFL QB in this era is still based primarily around some traits that are not so easy to define or predict.  Statistics show how hard it is to find them but it does not mean they arent still looking. Jones might have them and he might not, but to say that Kirk Cousins is his ceiling is kind of ridiculous IMO.  There are plenty more variables in that equation. 

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, CurseReversed said:

To be fair that statement is not necessarily true.  Your going to hate this but... Tom Brady does not have those things that Jones lacks and he is still winning consistently at age 43.    As much as this may seem an outlier, the truth is that there have been many great QB's recent enough to be relevant that did not have these top tier athletic traits.  Brees, Manning, Brady, just to name of few.   Even other guys like Ben and Russel have been successful without having the full physical tool kit.   We see A lot of these up an coming QB's and say this is the new era, and the essential recipe, but besides KC and maybe Green Bay, nobody has really proved it.  Allen had a Breakout year and I think he will be great, but we also thought the same of Carson Wentz once upon a time.  The winning formula for consistent success for an NFL QB in this era is still based primarily around some traits that are not so easy to define or predict.  Statistics show how hard it is to find them but it does not mean they arent still looking. Jones might have them and he might not, but to say that Kirk Cousins is his ceiling is kind of ridiculous IMO.  There are plenty more variables in that equation. 

 

I know some on here don't like this but I basically disregard Brady when comparing. Brady is a complete one-off who is the best to ever play the game and that's why he's still winning at his age in a time when his style of play is almost of a bygone era. He's basically superhuman. Could Mac Jones theoretically be Brady and beat astronomical odds on multiple fronts? Sure. Could I theoretically get a winning $100 million lottery ticket while having a threesome with Mila Kunis and Scarlett Johansson? Sure. I'm much more likely to end up with a $5 winning ticket while looking at porn though.

 

Manning and Brees are also two of the better QBs to ever play and are 1st ballot HoFers. Did they continue playing up until the newer brand of QBs started dominating? Yes. But they were by far the exceptions as well. Other non-mobile pure pocket passers who aren't HoFers went the way of the dodo for the most part. I disagree about Big Ben and Russel. Both of them have those physical tools and abilities that are at a premium now, though in different ways. 

 

If the only recent successful guys you can use for comparison are 3 of the best to ever play (and who were all drafted a long time ago), then IMO the case isn't super strong. As far as Cousins, he's just the guy that Mac reminds me the most of and is currently playing, so that's why I used him. I think Mac Jones is a good prospect but I think he's going to have a pretty big uphill climb if he's going to become an elite QB (and if you're spending three 1sts on a QB he damn well better become elite) when his skillset is not really conducive to the traits the modern day NFL caters to for top QBs.

[RWJ]

3 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

it’ll be interesting to see if we bring a couple more ‘decent’ FA’s in before the draft. RR said this week about roster evaluation pre draft. If we do make a couple of moves in need positions for example, that could give a slight indication that we may be strongly considering trading picks away to move up. 

But what positions and who at those positions?  

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

 

Good question.  The discussion on The Junkies centered around how Allen had zero cap hit to cut.

Maybe, just maybe we might be fortunate enough to get a 6th/7th round pick for Allen.  Highly unlikely but it would be nice if we tried.  He was playing fairly well before he got hurt and lost for the season.  If not, then I can see where he could be cut and possibly Montez.

[CurseReversed]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

I know some on here don't like this but I basically disregard Brady when comparing. Brady is a complete one-off who is the best to ever play the game and that's why he's still winning at his age in a time when his style of play is almost of a bygone era. He's basically superhuman. Could Mac Jones theoretically be Brady and beat astronomical odds on multiple fronts? Sure. Could I theoretically get a winning $100 million lottery ticket while having a threesome with Mila Kunis and Scarlett Johansson? Sure. I'm much more likely to end up with a $5 winning ticket while looking at porn though.

 

Manning and Brees are also two of the better QBs to ever play and are 1st ballot HoFers. Did they continue playing up until the newer brand of QBs started dominating? Yes. But they were by far the exceptions as well. Other non-mobile pure pocket passers who aren't HoFers went the way of the dodo for the most part. I disagree about Big Ben and Russel. Both of them have those physical tools and abilities that are at a premium now, though in different ways. 

 

If the only recent successful guys you can use for comparison are 3 of the best to ever play (and who were all drafted a long time ago), then IMO the case isn't super strong. As far as Cousins, he's just the guy that Mac reminds me the most of and is currently playing, so that's why I used him. I think Mac Jones is a good prospect but I think he's going to have a pretty big uphill climb if he's going to become an elite QB (and if you're spending three 1sts on a QB he damn well better become elite) when his skillset is not really conducive to the traits the modern day NFL caters to for top QBs.

If the theory is that you need those elite physical traits to have long term success in the NFL, then Brady is not an outlier.  Historically speaking, he is the standard.  Brees and Manning won more and have been more successful then any of the prototype modern QB's and it was not that long ago to be irrelevant.  There are plenty more recent examples.   I understand things have changed, maybe it will be true that the era of greatness without certain tools is over, but its far from an open and shut case.   I think that at a minimum it is more difficult to win now without them, but the formula for greatness is still a complicated one, and if you see traits that could be special, you go for it.  Its only in hindsight that we see it as a statistical anamoly that these late round or long shot QB's make it.  At the time it was insightful and brilliant when they were chosen.   

 

You might say that a guy like Wilson has the tools, but he was chosen in the 3rd for a reason.  If he was coming out this year it would be the same story.  I doubt we would be clamoring for him.

Edited April 9, 2021 by CurseReversed

[Lovi]

One could certainly argue that a threesome with Mila Kunis and Scarlett Johansson is indeed a $100 Million dollar lottery ticket!

[JoggingGod]

3 hours ago, HigSkin said:

John Keim on The Junkies just now and he basically said:

 

1)  QB is definitely in play

2)  He's trended toward day 2 pick and keeps coming back to Kyle Trask

3)  He sees it hard to trade up but depends to what spot

4)  If they did it, he sees future picks and keeping this years picks like what SF did

5)  He explained to EB about picking a guy and who do they get rid of that Allen, Heineke and Montez are all back-ups - building a better roster theory

6)  Getting Fitz allows them to go get their guy whoever that is.  Darnold would not have allowed them that flexibility

 

Fire this entire FO and coaching staff if they draft Trask. He has no potential as an NFL player.

[Est.1974]

59 minutes ago, RWJ said:

But what positions and who at those positions?  

the obvious positions of need 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 hours ago, HigSkin said:

John Keim on The Junkies just now and he basically said:

 

1)  QB is definitely in play

2)  He's trended toward day 2 pick and keeps coming back to Kyle Trask

3)  He sees it hard to trade up but depends to what spot

4)  If they did it, he sees future picks and keeping this years picks like what SF did

5)  He explained to EB about picking a guy and who do they get rid of that Allen, Heineke and Montez are all back-ups - building a better roster theory

6)  Getting Fitz allows them to go get their guy whoever that is.  Darnold would not have allowed them that flexibility

 

 

I've been meaning to post on Keim but got caught up in some draft debates on another thread.  Now this is coming from his podcast not the Junkies. 

 

A.  He knows they really like a QB a lot who is going in the first and he knows they'd at least consider trading up.  He wasn't 100% sure who but alluded to thinking it could be Lance

B.  If they traded up for a QB, they'd try to have the picks be in the future versus heavy in this draft -- to use the current draft to improve the current roster

C.  He doesn't think they'd trade all the way to 4 because he doesn't think Rivera wants to give up that type of draft capital but if a player slips further maybe

D.  If they trade for a QB and miss out at LT for that reason or in the draft, watch out for the Steelers veteran tackle who is on the market.  He has a difficult name to pronouce and i don't feel like looking it up 

E.  He mentions on offense they want a LT, a TE and another RB for depth

F.  They like the depth in the draft at tackle.  

G.  They like the depth at LB but not as much as tackle but a good player could be had in the first few rounds

H.  He alluded to you don't need stud LBs behind a monster D line so they don't per se need to find crazy talent at that spot

I.  he mentionted there are TEs they like after the first round

J. If they don't get the Qb in this draft don't be surprised to see trade downs to build 2022 draft capital

H.  They see this draft as killer important.  He said he got a quote from someone within the FO who said "they have to kill this draft"

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[DefinitelyMaybe]

 

Kyle Allen draft night seeing Washington blow their load to go get Trey Lance

[DefinitelyMaybe]

Based on absolutely no in depth knowledge and watching Just Bombs Highlight Videos on YouTube I’m ALL IN on Jeremiah Owusu - Koramoah I like the cut of his jib

 

My wildcard is Trevon Moehrig he’s tidy too

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyMaybe said:

Based on absolutely no in depth knowledge and watching Just Bombs Highlight Videos on YouTube I’m ALL IN on Jeremiah Owusu - Koramoah I like the cut of his jib

 

My wildcard is Trevon Moehrig he’s tidy too

JOK can cover but he's pretty small. Can he hold up against the run? Seems like a good fit for our 4-2 nickel style D though.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, DefinitelyMaybe said:

Based on absolutely no in depth knowledge and watching Just Bombs Highlight Videos on YouTube I’m ALL IN on Jeremiah Owusu - Koramoah I like the cut of his jib

 

My wildcard is Trevon Moehrig he’s tidy too

JOK would be solid on the perimeter for us. Doesn’t help us with our downhill run defense though, which is a big weakness. 
 

Though, we got beat to the perimeter a bit too so maybe JOK helps a bit there. But then again, despite his tremendous athletic ability, he takes some rough angles in run defense at times. But it is fun to imagine JOK fully developed as a slot defender for us.

[HigSkin]

 

[Skinsinparadise]