Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[The Consigliere]

5 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I know this is your position and it makes total sense. However if you look at the list of SB QBs over the last 2 decades you will see a lot of names of high paid QBs who were no longer on their rookie deal. As I was saying the other day teams like the Rams have shown that it's still possible to build a really good roster even with the QB taking up a big portion of your cap.  

 

Watson is basically Drew Brees 2.0. People barely even remember that Brees was with the Chargers for several years before he even became a Saint and then he had a 15 year career in New Orleans. The same thing happening is very possible with Watson. It's not my priority, because of the cost, but it's a no brainer to try if you can't trade up in the draft because you mitigate the concern of drafting a bust. There is no bust potential for Watson outside of injury, and if his career follows a reasonable arc, he should be legit till at least 2027, in which case you should have all your draft assets for at least 75%+ of his career, if not the benefits of the cheap rookie deal (I'm using '27 because both McNabb and Vick had shorter careers than typical as super athletic, running QB's, admittedly Cunningham, Tarkenton, Elway, Young and others lasted far longer).

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

 

Personally, I'd try to trade up right now for a top 3 pick, just blow them away immediately w/an overpay. 

 

 

I probably would too.  the Watson thing though complicates it.  It's no secret that if Watson hits the market the Miami and Jets picks would entice them the most because it would enable the Texans to try to fix the QB spot immediately.  So I am guessing Miami won't trade it until they believe they are out on Watson.

 

If Miami gets Watson, we are likely out of the Wilson/Fields business.  If Watson gets traded, we'd probably have to root for the Jets to pull it off if the goal is Fields or Wilson.   So assuming we can't get Watson ourselves, we'd root for either Watson not hitting the market or the Jets getting Watson.  And we never know maybe Miami takes Fields or Wilson and moves on from Tua like Arizona did with Rosen. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

If you draft a guy and he is a franchise guy, you pay him. 

 

My position feeds into my draft and FA QB philosophy.

 

You draft one and use the window. I am fine with paying a FA QB, though it's not ideal. But you don't use draft capital in FA. So it's a sound strategy. So, paying your own (AFTER THE WINDOW!!!! Not before... like the Rams did...) makes some sense for sure as he's not just a FA QB but he's your QB who you know has a handle on your system and locker room. They are valuable.

 

I posted why I disagreed with your Rams take. That still stands for me as well.

 

KDawg would you trade our 1st, 2nd, late 3rd, and next year's 1st to Miami for pick 3 this year?

[Darrell Green Fan]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

If you draft a guy and he is a franchise guy, you pay him. 

 

My position feeds into my draft and FA QB philosophy.

 

You draft one and use the window. I am fine with paying a FA QB, though it's not ideal. But you don't use draft capital in FA. So it's a sound strategy. So, paying your own (AFTER THE WINDOW!!!! Not before... like the Rams did...) makes some sense for sure as he's not just a FA QB but he's your QB who you know has a handle on your system and locker room. They are valuable.

 

I posted why I disagreed with your Rams take. That still stands for me as well.

 

I recall your Rams comment but can't remember the specifics. I'm just trying to prove that it's not true that if you commit a huge amount of your cap space it prevents you from fielding a good roster.  We've seen in with the Rams, with teams like Pittsburth, NO, GB and others.   And again a great QB can overcome so many short comings on the roster.

 

If you limit yourself to only signing FA QBs you are stuck with a Marcus Mariotta level QB and that's not good enough.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Darrell Green Fan

[JoggingGod]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Hard pass. Ohio State. I don’t care about his gosh darn skills.

Sarcasm?

[redskinsrmylyfe]

55 minutes ago, dckey said:

How about 2021 1st, 2022 2nd, 2023 1st, 2024 2nd, Matt IO and Landon Collins for Watson??????????

I would do back flips for that deal!

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[The Consigliere]

42 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

KDawg would you trade our 1st, 2nd, late 3rd, and next year's 1st to Miami for pick 3 this year?

I said yes before you finished, and even though I'm not KDawg. 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

The knock from people on trading away draft capital for an established QB is that it is a damaging short term move that will negatively impact our ability to enhance other areas of the roster. It’s perceived to be poor resource management.

 

On the contrary, trading for Watson is an extremely strong long term move. We get a franchise QB for a decade. 8-10 years is a fair estimate. It fits in our cap situation, short-medium term that we can budget for, and we would still have a healthy stock of day 2 and day 3 picks 2021 through 2023.

 

Terry Mclaurin 3rd round. Kam Curl 7th round, recent examples. Only need a handful more of those in the next 3 years to supplant the QB move.

 

We will lose some of our future FAs. All teams do. You can never keep them all. The fact they are all DL actually helps, because losing a couple doesn’t decimate the whole unit.

 

I don’t get the reservations.

 

Agree.  My problem with some of theories is for me its not about one theory versus another.  To me its more nuanced and depends on the situation.  Sometimes I like one theory, sometimes another.  Heck I can even find myself in the don't make a move at Qb crowd if we can't move up in the draft and are just stuck with meh choices in FA.  All depends to me at least on circumstance as to what theory i am all in on. 

 

At the start of this thread, you would be hard pressed to find someone more obsessed with trading up in the draft than me.  I was as hardcore about it then as I become later for trading for a vet if a good vet became available.    Why did i change my mind?  It has nothing to do with my belief in one theory versus another but it was about change in circumstance.

 

To me picking 19 was a game changer in the trade up department because it likely turned the trade up capital to close to 2012 RG3 range and more importantly it made the trade up drill feel somewhat unrealistc.  So yeah I would go with Stafford over trading three ones to go get Wilson or Fields.  That's not because veteran > rookie QB but for me it was because of context and circumstance.

 

Now Stafford is out.  So that leaves the trading up in the draft to me as much attractive again.  The only thing that is unattractive to me is staying pat unless we are just stuck with the current FA options. 

 

I religiously hate the concept of just wait and the QB will come later like it fits like a glove that whenever the supporting cast is in place, the franchise QB opportunity just somehow magically appears.  I always put money againist the QB appearing.  Heck the Jets had a decent run with a good defense and at times even good offensive supporting cast but struck out on three different attempts at QBs in the draft (two 2nd rounders, and a first) and are now in the midst of the 4th strike out with Darnold.    They've totally wasted that young D line years back.  It can happen here, too.    I think the 5th time will end up the charm for them but if so that took them like 10 years to do. 

 

So bringing this to Watson.  It's hard enough to find a really good QB.  An elite QB is extremely hard.   So heck yeah I'd be into aggressively moving for him.  We came a hair from beating what could be SB champions in the playoffs considering all are supposed mega holes.  Even if I ran with the most extreme position on the other side of the argument which suggests more or less you either get Watson and can't do squat to upgrade anywhere else on the team or can build this super supporting cast without Watson.  I'd still take Watson.

 

I am against trading Chase but agree with the general point below

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Assuming it takes 2 1sts, 2 2nds, and 2 defensive players as been reported.

 

 

Perfect, then we can be just like the Texans with a great QB and one great DL and win 4 whole games.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Perfect, then we can be just like the Texans with a great QB and one great DL and win 4 whole games.

 

You just made my argument for me haha.

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

You just made my argument for me haha.

I know. I'm in complete agreement with you and have been. I was driving it home, not trying to argue it.

[HigSkin]

Just looking at what QB's our assistant coaching staff have been around the last few years and there's nothing really there.  Besides Rodgers (WR coach) or Baker (QB coach), Derek Carr is the only one that seems serviceable or potentially available.

 

Scott Turner - Teddy Bridgewater, Cam Newton, Kyle Allen

Ken Zampese - AJ McCarron, Andy Dalton, Baker Mayfield

Jack DelRio - Derek Carr

Jim Hostler - Aaron Rodgers, Brett Hundley

 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by HigSkin

[heyholetsgogrant]

Tua Tagovailoa says he's 'not too sure' he'll be with Dolphins next year amid Deshaun Watson rumors
NFL: Tua Tagovailoa is 'not too sure' he'll remain on Dolphins (yahoo.com)

Crazy we had people on here who thought we gave up on Haskins early.  This is a guy who was drafted 5th overall last season...let that sink in. That beings up my second point, wasting picks to trade up might hurt us more. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by heyholetsgogrant

[Skinsinparadise]

So, if that ends up being the case, using a first-round pick on a signal-caller will certainly be on the table. And, according to Kevin Sheehan of the Team 980, there's one prospect in particular Washington's revamped front office really likes.

 

"I've heard Washington, their brain trust, they like Justin Fields, the quarterback from Ohio State," Sheehan said on his radio show Tuesday morning.

It makes sense why Washington would be interested in Fields, too. The 21-year-old has great size (6-foot-3, 227 lbs.), a rocket arm, excellent accuracy and elite athleticism.

 

That last part is especially important, as head coach Ron Rivera has stressed multiple times the need for mobility at the quarterback position. Fields, an outstanding runner, totaled 15 touchdowns with his legs in 22 games with the Buckeyes.

"He does fit in terms of what you think they'd be looking at. They want a mobile quarterback," Sheehan said. 

The idea of taking an Ohio State quarterback in the first round of the draft doesn't sound enticing to many Washington fans, especially considering the Dwayne Haskins debacle over the past two seasons.

 

To those fans, remember this: scout the player, not the helmet. 

Fields and Haskins have different skillsets and are completely different prospects. Fields also has more experience than Haskins did coming out. He started two full seasons at Ohio State compared to just one for Haskins. 

 

When Haskins was going through the draft process, there were several questions about his maturity, many of which proved to be true in Washington. Fields, on the other hand, is considered to be a great leader by many with little character concerns.

 

"Justin Fields is a high-character guy by all reports," Sheehan said. "He's a leader, he's played more than just one season."

If Washington does ultimately want to select Fields come draft day, the Burgundy and Gold will almost certainly have to trade up to get him.

In NBC Sports Washington's latest mock draft, Fields goes second overall to the New York Jets. Other mocks have Fields slipping a bit, but almost all have the Ohio State star coming off the board by pick No. 7, where the Lions are slated to select.

 

Sheehan brought up NFL Draft expert Matt Miller's most recent mock, where he has Washington trading up to No. 7 with the Lions to take Fields. In that proposal, Washington would sent two first-round picks (including this year's 19th overall selection) and a third-rounder to Detroit to move up, a very similar package to what Kansas City gave up to take Patrick Mahomes in 2017.

While that might seem like a lot to give up, Sheehan says he trusts Rivera and his staff to make the right move.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/football-team/could-washington-make-play-ohio-state-qb-justin-fields-2021-nfl-draft

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

Tua Tagovailoa says he's 'not too sure' he'll be with Dolphins next year amid Deshaun Watson rumors
NFL: Tua Tagovailoa is 'not too sure' he'll remain on Dolphins (yahoo.com)

Crazy we had people on here who thought we gave up on Haskins early.  This is a guy who was drafted 5th overall last season...let that sink in. 

 

Yep.  What they have in common is neither looked hot in a short sample.  I think with Arizona doing it with Rosen which I thought was dead on the right move when they made it -- maybe its making teams more willing to make quick assessments?   Arizona has been big time vindicated.  Heck at this pace Rosen might be out of the league soon let alone sniffing anywhere near being franchise material.   

 

PFF put up a study that young QBs in the modern age who don't flash in a short sample mostly end up busts with some exceptions.  John Allen is an exception but he has freak talent.  Haskins, Tua and Rosen have talent but not freak level talent.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[redskinss]

Either our new front office is horribly incompetent or they don't actually like Justin fields.

That or they're attempting some sort of double pre draft smoke screen.

The off season bull**** is flowing early and steady this year that I know for sure. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by redskinss

[JamesMadisonSkins]

3 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Either our new front office is horribly incompetent or they don't actually like Justin fields.

That or they're attempting some sort of double pre draft smoke screen.

The off season bull**** is flowing early and steady this year that I know for sure. 

 

My immediate thought here was the same. No way this would leak out. Smoke screen type stuff.

[Darth Tater]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

 

Watson is basically Drew Brees 2.0. People barely even remember that Brees was with the Chargers for several years before he even became a Saint and then he had a 15 year career in New Orleans. The same thing happening is very possible with Watson. It's not my priority, because of the cost, but it's a no brainer to try if you can't trade up in the draft because you mitigate the concern of drafting a bust. There is no bust potential for Watson outside of injury, and if his career follows a reasonable arc, he should be legit till at least 2027, in which case you should have all your draft assets for at least 75%+ of his career, if not the benefits of the cheap rookie deal (I'm using '27 because both McNabb and Vick had shorter careers than typical as super athletic, running QB's, admittedly Cunningham, Tarkenton, Elway, Young and others lasted far longer).

Watson has never sucked.  Brees had one good year in SD and one mediocre one the rest pretty much sucked.

[Burgundy Yoda]

Obviously I would take Fields and trade up for him if he drops to pick #10 or so based on sheer talent alone (#10 is a reasonable place to trade up). I don't think he falls that far, Carolina at 8 is probably the lowest Wilson or Fields drops. If we drafted Fields, I will always have that feeling that because he went to Ohio State his issues from high school probably haven't been corrected. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[86 Snyder]

I want Watson as bad as anybody...Im basically in the "do anything it takes" camp.  If the Dolphins want him though, its over.  They have a replacement QB and package of picks to offer that we cannot touch.  Its a super long shot and basically just doing due diligence to inquire about him.

 

Fields though...if they are hellbent, there is a decent shot they could will it into existance.  Especially if the Jets prefer Wilson at 2.

[Koolblue13]

Brees was traded for a 2nd round pick after he looked like a mediocre QB and the Chargers had a chance to draft what appeared to be a clear upgrade. 

 

That's an absurd comparison to Watson.

 

Houston should have put O'Brien on the street immediately last year, when he started going bonkers.

[zCommander]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Washington trading up to No. 7 with the Lions to take Fields. In that proposal, Washington would sent two first-round picks (including this year's 19th overall selection) and a third-rounder to Detroit to move up, a very similar package to what Kansas City gave up to take Patrick Mahomes in 2017.

 

I will just quote this. Yes. Do it! I approve. 😁

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

My immediate thought here was the same. No way this would leak out. Smoke screen type stuff.

 

I got to think back at some of Sheehan's other stuff but I recall it borne out.   Their interest in Haskins was leaked a ton before that draft.  It proved to be true.   Ditto Guice.  Ditto Payne.  Heck eventually it was leaked that they are in on Stafford.  Also proved to be true. 

 

So I am the opposite i buy it.  

Edited February 2, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[JamesMadisonSkins]

1 minute ago, zskins said:

 

I will just quote this. Yes. Do it! I approve. 😁

 

It's funny, Miller just went from Bleacher Report to his own private subscription platform. I think he isn't allowed to launch content until mid-February in his exit deal, but he moderated a Round 1 mock draft among subscribers as a perk for signing up last night, and tweeted the results. THIS is what I posted last night, and a ton of local sports networks picked it up and ran with it ...

 

He gave up on trying to correct people once the cat was out of the bag lol. But technically this wasn't what he said would happen. It was an approved trade in the moderated fan draft.