Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[RWJ]

17 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

might as well add another first rounder to that and get Watson instead.

 

i posted that type of scenario earlier, we almost have to assume getting to #7 with Detroit is the slot to get a top QB prospect. And the cost wouldn’t be far short of Watson by time you are finished.

I know a lot of people are against Jones.  Nothing special as as far as scrambling with speed or super arm talent but he does have enough arm for short to intermediate throws and that fits Turner's O.  His biggest attribute is his being able to read a D and putting the ball at the right place at the right time.  That's why I like the guy.  If we even needed to trade up it would be ahead of possibly N.E. as Mock gurus have them the most interested in him.  We might be able to get him at #19 but adding an extra pick to move up 5 spots save us a lot of draft capital.  We all have our thoughts about the QB position.  Like I mentioned, if this F.O. only had a Plan A shame on them and the fail for not having a Plan B or C for a vet QB that RR said he wanted to get.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Insane efficiency despite being the only thing the Texans had this year essentially.

 

 

 

I, as everyone else, thinks Watson is a great QB.  But saying Sacks aren't up is a little weird given that his sack average is already sky high.  That's how he plays, he tries to buy time and extend plays, those guys get sacked a lot.  Watson gets sacked even more than that.

 

His sack numbers weren't up...but they were already huge to begin with.

 

It's just the rest of what Watson does is so good you don't mind the occasional bad play.

[Est.1974]

Stafford and Watson, the only QBs worth trading decent picks for. Only one left on the table now. Dak would be the prize FA, at a cost, somewhat risky as well post injury.

 

Carr isn’t a bad option. Just not great. Moves us slightly up into the middle of the pack range. The price won’t match the goods though. Can’t throw a high pick at Carr.

 

After that it’s all utter mediocrity. You almost have to replace Smith with a Trubisky type and keep hold of all of your draft capital to add resource around that type of QB. Such an uninspiring outlook on the vet market.

 

As for the draft, I’ve long felt Lance was the best we could aspire to get. Draft him and sit for a year. Just think #19 is too far back and their is way more demand that supply. 
 

Most I would do in any draft trade scenario is add a third, and maybe say a 5th to any trade up. No seconds rounder, no future #1. It’s not worth it. The range of teams picking 8-12 doesn’t help our cause.

 

With all that in mind, I’m in favour of a serious run at Watson as our next move. Forget the inclusion of players, picks only. Three first rounders.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by UK SKINS FAN 74

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Stafford and Watson, the only QBs worth trading decent picks for. Only one left on the table now. Dak would be the prize FA, at a cost, somewhat risky as well post injury.

 

Carr isn’t a bad option. Just not great. Moves us slightly up into the middle of the pack range. The price won’t match the goods though. Can’t throw a high pick at Carr.

 

After that it’s all utter mediocrity. You almost have to replace Smith with a Trubisky type and keep hold of all of your draft capital to add resource around that type of QB. Such an uninspiring outlook on the vet market.

 

As for the draft, I’ve long felt Lance was the best we could aspire to get. Draft him and sit for a year. Just think #19 is too far back and their is way more demand that supply. 
 

Most I would do in any draft trade scenario is add a third, and maybe say a 5th to any trade up. No seconds rounder, no future #1. It’s not worth it. The range of teams picking 8-12 doesn’t help out cause.

 

With all that in mind, I’m in favour of a serious run at Watson. Forget the inclusion of players, picks only. Three first rounders.

 

 

Texans want 2 1st, check I can see RR doing that.  They want 2 seconds, I think a 2nd and 3rd he go for.  Then the biggest issue they want 2 D starters.  I give up Payne or Allen.  I don't give up either one of my DEs.  They are untouchable.  Now who do you give up beside Allen or Payne?  Collins is too expensive and is coming off a major injury.  Curl is up and coming and we are weak at S our CBs are too.  Maybe Ioanman but people have been saying no. 

 

So you say 3 1st, then what?  They want more than that and what would you include to their initial offer?

[Est.1974]

1 minute ago, RWJ said:

Texans want 2 1st, check I can see RR doing that.  They want 2 seconds, I think a 2nd and 3rd he go for.  Then the biggest issue they want 2 D starters.  I give up Payne or Allen.  I don't give up either one of my DEs.  They are untouchable.  Now who do you give up beside Allen or Payne?  Collins is too expensive and is coming off a major injury.  Curl is up and coming and we are weak at S our CBs are too.  Maybe Ioanman but people have been saying no. 

 

So you say 3 1st, then what?  They want more than that and what would you include to their initial offer?

3 first’s and maybe a 3rd. Maybe a second instead. No players at all.

 

If people are willing to trade 2 firsts and a third to move up in the draft, initially going after Watson is a no brainer.

 

 

[RWJ]

1 minute ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

3 first’s and maybe a 3rd. Maybe a second instead. No players at all.

 

If people are willing to trade 2 firsts and a third to move up in the draft, initially going after Watson is a no brainer.

 

 

I just don't see RR going 3 1st but playing along IF he did, the Texans might consider 3 1st, a 2nd and Payne or Allen.  Remember they want 2 1s, 2 2s and two D starters.  So with playing along I'd sum up my offer being close to what they are asking.  Just a guess.

[88Comrade2000]

Allen and Taylor will be battling for one spot; both will not be in the final roster. 

[RWJ]

Just now, Rdskns2000 said:

Allen and Taylor will be battling for one spot; both will not be in the final roster. 

We don't know that yet.  We have to get our star QB still.

[Est.1974]

15 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I just don't see RR going 3 1st but playing along IF he did, the Texans might consider 3 1st, a 2nd and Payne or Allen.  Remember they want 2 1s, 2 2s and two D starters.  So with playing along I'd sum up my offer being close to what they are asking.  Just a guess.

As most people are, Rivera is a very big on Watson. Rates him very highly. I dislike the notion we trade players, both Mayhew and Hurney said our foundation starts with the trenches, plus that pivotal QB. Makes no sense to trade away DL at all.

 

Got to back ourselves to be making playoff runs with Watson at QB, so those first rounders are valued accordingly. Pretty much the Rams philosophy.

Edited February 2, 2021 by UK SKINS FAN 74

[method man]

On Carr, listen to Keim's podcast interview with Matt Bowen. Bowen calls out Carr's improvement this past season and a major piece of that being his increased willingness to go deep. For perspective, his 7.9 YPA > Stafford's 7.7 YPA. Giving him McLaurin, a legit WR2 like Jones, Thomas, McKissic and Gibson already gives him way more receiving talent than he's ever had at the same time (his issue is that he's had one very good guy and a bunch of nobodies - Cooper for a while and now Waller)

[Est.1974]

1 minute ago, method man said:

On Carr, listen to Keim's podcast interview with Matt Bowen. Bowen calls out Carr's improvement this past season and a major piece of that being his increased willingness to go deep. For perspective, his 7.9 YPA > Stafford's 7.7 YPA. Giving him McLaurin, a legit WR2 like Jones, Thomas, McKissic and Gibson already gives him way more receiving talent than he's ever had at the same time (his issue is that he's had one very good guy and a bunch of nobodies - Cooper for a while and now Waller)

I could live with Carr at QB. There are certainly worse options. I mean, if he were a FA fine, but to trade high picks for him, don’t like that idea really.

[88Comrade2000]

26 minutes ago, RWJ said:

We don't know that yet.  We have to get our star QB still.

I think we get a 2nd tier veteran to start. We draft a QB to develop into our eventual long term starter. I think Taylor and Kyle will battle for the backup job but because I think we draft a rookie QBs; both won’t make the final roster.

[Est.1974]

4 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

I think we get a 2nd tier veteran to start. We draft a QB to develop into our eventual long term starter. I think Taylor and Kyle will battle for the backup job but because I think we draft a rookie QBs; both won’t make the final roster.

I’m inclined to agree. It’s good to throw out trade scenarios for discussion, but the above probably ends up being the only real avenue to follow. Taylor and Kyle fill the same role, so yep Tier 2 vet/Heinicke or Allen/rookie. 
 

I’m still aiming higher first.

[Burgundy Yoda]

40 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Allen and Taylor will be battling for one spot; both will not be in the final roster. 

Allen has such a long way to go with his recovery, him even being at 100% by the time training camp comes around would be pretty shocking. 

[RWJ]

31 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

I think we get a 2nd tier veteran to start. We draft a QB to develop into our eventual long term starter. I think Taylor and Kyle will battle for the backup job but because I think we draft a rookie QBs; both won’t make the final roster.

I'd agree with you but any NFL HC has a term limit with his team.  RR won a Division Championship with a 7-9 team with the other teams having major injury concerns etc..  He knows he has a team in place now, defensively, cause you can't pay them all due to the salary cap of course.  He knows he need to win sooner rather than later.  He has to get a established QB to make a difference w/in the time frame of his contract.  Just my 2 cents.  

22 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Allen has such a long way to go with his recovery, him even being at 100% by the time training camp comes around would be pretty shocking. 

  You got it Yoda.  If he makes it back to even play 1/2 the season, I'd be surprised.  Saw a recent video of him on twitter dude is on crutches and barley able to get around.  His injury happened awhile back.  His injury is worse than originally thought. 

[skinny21]

51 minutes ago, RWJ said:

I just don't see RR going 3 1st but playing along IF he did, the Texans might consider 3 1st, a 2nd and Payne or Allen.  Remember they want 2 1s, 2 2s and two D starters.  So with playing along I'd sum up my offer being close to what they are asking.  Just a guess.

Sure seems like RR will have a point and won’t go beyond it, we’ll see.  Very hard for me to imagine him getting close to their offer.  Purely a hunch, but 2 1sts and a player or 2 1sts and a 2nd is my guess(es) as to a ceiling.  I guess I imagine RR being... an intelligent gambler.  Like with Cooper and Stafford - a solid/good deal, but not too crazy.  And I expect either someone will go crazy, the Texans will pass because they don’t get the haul they want (I don’t envy them with Watson’s leverage though), or Watson’s trade clause winnows us from the field.

 

Has anyone mentioned the possibility of trading Fuller again?  That would be hilarious (and I’d feel awful for the guy). 

[skinny21]

42 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Allen has such a long way to go with his recovery, him even being at 100% by the time training camp comes around would be pretty shocking. 

My guess, based on the little info we do have, is that goes to the PUP.  It’s a long way off though... and he’s got the walking billboard for injury recovery on the team (as of now) as a model.

[RWJ]

Carr could be on the move to wherever and Raiders might be the team for Watson. Speculation but find this tweet interesting.  Might be nothing.

 

 

 

 

[Est.1974]

8 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Like with Cooper and Stafford - a solid/good deal, but not too crazy.

I was thinking about those two yesterday. The Stafford situation is just like the Cooper one, in that it will always get referred back to as something we were aggressively pursuing, when in reality our offer wasn’t even close.

 

The Cooper situation, It’s reported we offered more. Top number yes, apparently after taxes our deal would have been less cash. Plus, we offered only 20mil guaranteed whilst he got 60mil guaranteed from Jerry. Not even close.

 

Same re Stafford, our offer wasn’t even as good as the Carolina one.

I do wonder if our #1 target was always Watson and we are going to go more aggressively after him. But the Stafford situation was hanging around, and RR maybe thought, well Stafford is a damn good QB, not Watson level, but good enough to win with in the next 4-5 years. So at half the cost, let’s try our luck with a middle of the road proposal to see if we get a bite. But don’t overbid, because once that extra first came into play, the price becomes makes comparable to the Watson price so we may as well go all in there instead...

 

 

[RWJ]

3 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

I was thinking about those two yesterday. The Stafford situation is just like the Cooper one, in that it will always get referred back to as something we were aggressively pursuing, when in reality our offer wasn’t even close.

 

The Cooper situation, It’s reported we offered more. Top number yes, apparently after taxes our deal would have been less cash. Plus, we offered only 20mil guaranteed whilst he got 60mil guaranteed from Jerry. Not even close.

 

Same re Stafford, our offer wasn’t even as good as the Carolina one.

I do wonder if our #1 target was always Watson and we are going to go more aggressively after him. But the Stafford situation was hanging around, and RR maybe thought, well Stafford is a damn good QB, not Watson level, but good enough to win with in the next 4-5 years. So at half the cost, let’s try our luck with a middle of the road proposal to see if we get a bite. But don’t overbid, because once that extra first came into play, the price becomes makes comparable to the Watson price so we may as well go all in there instead...

 

 

74, Yes, I don't know this but come on, Watson ain't coming here.  Your points above prove that.  Carr, which is my choice right now or Ryan may be viable.  Watson is so not gonna happen, brother. 

[Dark Acre]

6 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Aye, so we agree Houston is screwed and we will be too if we dont package someone on the dline.

 

@Koolblue13 we have a glut at this position and defense became nasty without Matt.  Its one place we can afford to lose someone and survive, we jus proved that with Matt getting hurt.

Yeah, nasty in the sense that we were vulnerable to the short passing game and our LBs couldn't stop the run.  You know all those red zone stops we made?  That's the ultimate definition of bend-don't-break.  I'll take a loaded team with a mediocrity at QB this coming year over decimating the team and handicapping it for years to come.  Then in 2022, make a Mike Ditka-type deal to move up if necessary.  BTW, how is it that if a franchise QB is the most important guy on the team did 31 teams pass on Watson?

[Est.1974]

21 minutes ago, RWJ said:

74, Yes, I don't know this but come on, Watson ain't coming here.  Your points above prove that.  Carr, which is my choice right now or Ryan may be viable.  Watson is so not gonna happen, brother. 

Yep, probably got a 1 in 10 chance of getting him. However, for a team with no QB, and a Front Office that is trying to address that position as a priority this offseason, we have to be serious in our attempts to get him. Franchise QB, total stud, 25 years old. Got a decade of football ahead. Have to push that door.

 

Ryan would be a poor choice, not actually sure the Falcons can get him off their books this year.
 

Carr, Jimmy G, Trubisky. Struggling to be enthusiastic but would be willing to buy in if we back that move up with a strong free agency period and the draft. Interesting times.

[Est.1974]

Our future draft pick status:

 

2021 : 1,2,3,3,4,5,7,7

2022 : 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

2023 : 1,2,3,4,5,6,7

If as an organisation we decide, right, blockbuster trade for Watson, then that’s its. All future draft picks in 2021-23 will be retained. No more trading away over that period. 
 

Is a trade really that debilitating when Watson would in theory still be our QB in 2026,2027 and beyond?

 

Is it really a short sighted move to win now, trying to secure a 25 year old franchise QB?

 

You could argue it is short term sacrifice for longer term success. Long term planning from a different perspective.

 

Watson even fits into our salary cap situation.

 

 

 

[Renegade7]

11 minutes ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Yeah, nasty in the sense that we were vulnerable to the short passing game and our LBs couldn't stop the run.  You know all those red zone stops we made?  That's the ultimate definition of bend-don't-break. 

 

I blame secondary and linebackers more then losing Matt.

 

11 minutes ago, GothSkinsFan said:

 

 

I'll take a loaded team with a mediocrity at QB this coming year over decimating the team and handicapping it for years to come. 

 

Mediocrity at qb is a handicap.

 

11 minutes ago, GothSkinsFan said:

 

 

Then in 2022, make a Mike Ditka-type deal to move up if necessary.  BTW, how is it that if a franchise QB is the most important guy on the team did 31 teams pass on Watson?

 

11 teams passed, he was the 12th pick.  If we gonna do something desperate, do it for someone worth it.

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

Mediocrity at qb is a handicap

Damn right, I’ll stomach it this year if we basically end up holding the baby, but at least having tried to significantly upgrade, but if we settle for that through choice, nah, what a waste of momentum from 2020.

 

I’ve said before, we are essentially rebranding and relaunching this franchise, Rivera has been inspirational this past season, with his personal fight, but also with his ability to turn our fortunes around. He knows the next piece is QB. Pivotal moment. 
 

You don’t flirt with Stafford, then go fishing whilst the Watson race heats up. No way.

Edited February 2, 2021 by UK SKINS FAN 74