Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[PartyPosse]

I would absolutely unequivocally take Carr right now. His salary isn't bad and his dead cap hit is virtually nothing. 

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't have a dog in this Carr debate yet but I am open on it.  I just looked up the PFF ratings which I trust more than QB ratings, here it is, you can thank me later...

 

 

PFF scores say he's Dak minus the running ability, at around half the cost. Sign me up.  

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't have a dog in this Carr debate yet but I am open on it.  I just looked up the PFF ratings which I trust more than QB ratings, here it is, you can thank me later...

 

 

Do that list with winning record last year.

[86 Snyder]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't have a dog in this Carr debate yet but I am open on it.  I just looked up the PFF ratings which I trust more than QB ratings, here it is, you can thank me later...

 

 

 

Dude why

[Skinsinparadise]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

PFF scores say he's Dak minus the running ability, at around half the cost. Sign me up.  

 

I trust my eyes more than anything when it comes to QBs, not saying I am always right about what i see but its what I rely on mostly.  i was confident in Stafford because i've watched a lot of him.  I watch much more NFC than AFC.  The exceptions are the Dolphins/Jets because of family/friends.  But in short i haven't watched a lot of Carr so while I have an opinion on him its still malleable. 

 

I'll say i am impressed with his PFF score.  Also, he's not a total statue considering he ran a 4.69 40.  So I'll digest this some more.  But the debate has got me intrigued now.

 

 

 

  

[MarkMissoula]

So with 245 pages in this thread I'm sure someone has touched on this. Didn't RR last year say he wanted AS back as his QB this year? And if that was accurate isn't this rumor of us trying to trade for Stafford say to AS, that in fact we don't want you back, so retire? Sure would like to know what Alex thinks about these rumors.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Do that list with winning record last year.

 

Which ones had the best records?

[dswerdlw]

 Rivera has demonstrated he does well with players who have something to prove (Darby, Thomas, Lucas). While we'd have to trade for Mariota, I'm guessing he wants to prove he's a starter. The same could be said of Trubisky, but he doesn't fit our scheme as much as Mariota does. Frankly, we need a QB who can run when the opportunity is there. I'd be willing to take a chance on Mariota, as long as we don't give up more than a 2nd round pick.

[TheShredder]

55 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

Well, my point is, giving up the farm for either Stafford/Watson guarantees nothing.  We nearly beat the best team in the NFC with player who was out of the league a few weeks back. Neither Stafford/Watson has been to the SB and one hasn’t won a playoff game.  No one has explained how Stafford or Watson instantly makes us a SB contender.  If either of them have been to the SB, I’d give you that point.

Yeah I agree with that for sure.  Just too many holes to fill and mouths to feed to make a debilitation move on Watson (who isn't available).  I think they add more pieces to the puzzle, including a QB to compete for the starting slot.  They took a shot at Stafford likely in a way that wasn't jeopardizing the ability to address all the other roster issues.  I believe their efforts are measured. 

[86 Snyder]

Im so old I remember when Mariota sucked.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

[dyst]

We don’t have to be desperate. Throw a 2nd or a 3rd for Carr (if that is who the team wants) and if the Raiders want more then just walk.

[Mooka]

18 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I would absolutely unequivocally take Carr right now. His salary isn't bad and his dead cap hit is virtually nothing. 

 

Have to trade for him though. 

 

Would you give the 19th pick? 

[TheShredder]

6 minutes ago, MarkMissoula said:

So with 245 pages in this thread I'm sure someone has touched on this. Didn't RR last year say he wanted AS back as his QB this year? And if that was accurate isn't this rumor of us trying to trade for Stafford say to AS, that in fact we don't want you back, so retire? Sure would like to know what Alex thinks about these rumors.

San Francisco, then KC...Here we go again!

[Skinsinparadise]

I don't have a strong position on Carr at all.  I got to watch him closely and I'll get to it.

 

But two key points that are relevant to my take on this:

 

A.  I trust Rivera and this FO, I want whoever they want.    So if the Junkies are right and they like Carr, that's enough for me.

 

B.  Context to me matters when it comes to evaluating players.  For example it mattered to me that Stafford had a crap running game and a crap defense.  I don't put wins and loses all on the Qb.  Neither apparently does Sean McVay.  He got rid of his "winning QB" Jared Goff for the big loser Matthew Stafford.  Why?  i doubt it was because McVay is a moron and doesn't understand that wins and loses are the be all and end all to judge QBs but because he factors context and values QB traits.

 

I spent probably 3 hours debating two different people from this board the morning before we drafted McLaurin with me pushing he'd be a good get in the third round and they disagreed.  They threw stats at me and his weak demoninator scores.  But i explained that you had to factor circumstances and context behind those stats.   That stuff matters.

 

I am not saying Carr is the guy but I am not fazed by any QBs win loss record if there is a good explanation for it.  If that player has a loaded roster and yet loses I'd feel differently. 

 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rai/2020.htm

Team Stats and Rankings

		Passing
Player	PF	Yds
Opp. Stats	478	4212
Lg Rank Offense	10	7
Lg Rank Defense	30	26

Edited February 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Alex Smith just wins football games like nobody else. We've been garbage for a decade when he's not under center. Keep the cap, keep the picks, build the team and keep winning games. 

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Alex Smith just wins football games like nobody else. We've been garbage for a decade when he's not under center. Keep the cap, keep the picks, build the team and keep winning games. 

 

He could barely make it through playing a quarter of a season, you want him back with a 24 million cap hit, and we'd bet on him at 37 having a better year staying healthy?

 

If we are going that route, I'd agree with Rivera when asked if they'd win without Alex and he said yeah if Kyle Allen stayed healthy.   If we are going to game manager ourselves to 9-7 or something like that we might as well do it cheaply and with someone who can still move IMO. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[CapsSkins]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I trust my eyes more than anything when it comes to QBs, not saying I am always right about what i see but its what I rely on mostly.  i was confident in Stafford because i've watched a lot of him.  I watch much more NFC than AFC.  The exceptions are the Dolphins/Jets because of family/friends.  But in short i haven't watched a lot of Carr so while I have an opinion on him its still malleable. 

 

I'll say i am impressed with his PFF score.  Also, he's not a total statue considering he ran a 4.69 40.  So I'll digest this some more.  But the debate has got me intrigued now.

 

 

 

  

 

I haven't watched Carr a ton either, but I watched SNF between him and the Chiefs this year and was thoroughly impressed. While the Raiders lost that game, Carr marched down the field and dueled Mahomes score after score for most of the game till the Chiefs pulled away at the end.

 

Then I checked his stats and liked what I saw. I mean, you just don't get 100+ QBR guys growing on trees. And the PFF rankings you posted show he's solidly in the Dak/Kirk. I'm one of the biggest Kirk haters, mostly because he chokes and I think he's a bit of a prick lol. But even I know full well if you plopped Kirk Cousins on this team right now, we're winning more than 10 games with our defense & budding offensive stars.

 

Factoring in cap hit, age and potential availability to skill set and recent history stats-wise, Carr is a guy I'd be very excited about. 

[rumplestilskin]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Alex Smith just wins football games like nobody else. We've been garbage for a decade when he's not under center. Keep the cap, keep the picks, build the team and keep winning games. 

If only his wheel wasn't so delicate then it would be a no brainer. It's sad to see his PFF rating on running as he used to be sneaky elusive. 

[KillBill26]

Derek Carr just had the best qb rating of his career, and he has improved in each of his three seasons under gruden.  For those who are excited at the possibility of acquiring carr bc he is a solid qb, doesn't that also strengthen the argument against the raiders trading him.  If he is so good, why wouldn't the raiders keep him and build around him?  They need to shed some salaries, but they have some no brainier moves that would get them back into the black.   With franchise qbs being so rare, it seems silly to kick a 29 year old qb to the curb and start over.

[Koolblue13]

17 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He could barely make it through playing a quarter of a season, you want him back with a 24 million cap hit, and we'd bet on him at 37 having a better year staying healthy?

 

If we are going that route, I'd agree with Rivera when asked if they'd win without Alex and he said yeah if Kyle Allen stayed healthy.   If we are going to game manager ourselves to 9-7 or something like that we might as well do it cheaply and with someone who can still move IMO. 

I'm out bro. I'm on the Alex is back band wagon and Heinicke can be healthy enough when he isn't. Allen will be back eventually too. QB committee like the Skins always have done. 

 

Draft Book in the 3rd and maybe he'll step up in 3 years, but grab Collins at 19 and double down on defense. If we're not in the QB quinate, then **** it. Lets get tough, run the ball and play hard defense and ruin everyones day, until we can get there.  

[Skinsinparadise]

The Patriots need to be in on all of the quarterbacks, if for nothing else than to understand the trade market, and also to anticipate the next quarterback domino that might fall across the NFL. For example, if Watson gets his wish to be traded from Houston and lands with the Niners, the Patriots could then potentially go after Garoppolo.

 

It's hard to believe Houston would want to trade Watson to the Patriots, or anywhere in the AFC for that matter. But if things don't go the way general manager Nick Caserio envisions in terms of Watson's willingness to play for the Texans, Watson is the rare type of player coach Bill Belichick can justify making an exception for; the price would start with multiple first-round picks (and then some), and it would be worth it.

"There's a lot of teams that need quarterbacks. We're going to be in that race," veteran safety Devin McCourty said on his "Double Coverage" podcast. "Does Cam [Newton] come back? Do we get a new quarterback? No one knows that."

The Patriots are in good financial position with more than $50 million in projected salary-cap space for 2021. They don't face the financial crunch many teams will have to navigate if the cap shrinks as expected this offseason, which figures to have a significant effect on the trade market, potentially limiting the number of suitors.

Garoppolo is probably the Patriots' best option in terms of fit and what it would take to acquire him (less than a first-rounder). But there's no guarantee San Francisco is willing to move him, unless something potentially better comes along.

2. Rare spot at 15: Carolina Panthers general manager Scott Fitterer recently made a point that has direct relevance to the Patriots. "When you look at the draft, and you build a board, there's a certain level of player that stops at 16, 17 or 18," he said.

Fitterer spent 20 years with the Seattle Seahawks, who similar to the Patriots have been picking near the bottom of the first round and thus have been more inclined to trade back to collect assets.

That's why the Patriots' 2021 NFL draft position, at No. 15, is significant. In Belichick's 20 years as coach, it's the fourth highest the team has picked -- after No. 6 in 2001 (Richard Seymour), No. 12 in 2003 (Ty Warren) and No. 10 in 2008 (Jerod Mayo).

This is one of their best opportunities to get a true blue-chip player, regardless of position.

3. QB or not QB: ESPN draft analysts Mel Kiper Jr. and Todd McShay have released their initial mock drafts, and both have slotted quarterbacks to the Patriots at No. 15, with Kiper projecting Alabama's Mac Jones as a fit. It's one of the Patriots' biggest needs, but to Fitterer's point, the Patriots would have to be convinced they aren't reaching to fill it as they would risk losing a blue-chip player at a different spot. That's why, at this point, I lean against the quarterback at No. 15.

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4822136/in-offseason-of-qb-movement-new-england-patriots-in-position-to-pounce

[Commander -JB-]

1 hour ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Is there anything more crude than citing a team win-loss record as gospel for a QB's value? Look at the below and tell me he sucks

 

 

Look at Kirk Cousins stats and tell me he doesn’t fold in crunch time.  Is this a joke?

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'm out bro. I'm on the Alex is back band wagon and Heinicke can be healthy enough when he isn't. Allen will be back eventually too. QB committee like the Skins always have done. 

 

Draft Book in the 3rd and maybe he'll step up in 3 years, but grab Collins at 19 and double down on defense. If we're not in the QB quinate, then **** it. Lets get tough, run the ball and play hard defense and ruin everyones day, until we can get there.  

 

I am still in on the QB hunt and I gather so is Rivera.  So that puts you outside the circle of trust.  😀

 

But if I was doing it your way, then I definitiely dump Alex, you'd want that cap space to upgrade the roster.  

 

Ride with Allen/Heinicke.  Trade up for a player I know we agree on, Kyle Pitts, if you can do it without giving up the farm or if you can't pull that off then draft N. Harris.   If you can't get Pitts take Brevin Jordan in the 2nd.  I doubt Allen Robinson or Godwin would want to come here then.  So shoot lower in FA, Curtis Samuel maybe M. Jones to upgrade WR.  

 

Sign L. David or K. Wright at MLB.  Take the Alex savings and sign a FS which there are plenty of in FA like Harris or Johnson.  And use the rest of the picks to go BPA. 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Burgundy Yoda]

1 hour ago, 86 Snyder said:

Carr is basically the worst a quarterback can be and still keep a starting job.  Theres a reason why hes constantly under the gun and starts every season with a ton of smoke around whether hes the solution.  Eventually he'll have a rough season and wont be the guy anymore, or he'll be victim of circumstance when his team earns a high enough pick to replace him.  Hes Andy Dalton.

 

Hes an improvement for the Skins but we're not a contender with him.   Im fine bringing him in as long as its not more than a 2nd.

 

Would be a pretty underwhelming acquisition.

 

 

Shows the shape we're in at that position. Carr is a borderline top 20 QB, but that is far better than what we have and he's still a major upgrade over anyone we have. 

 

Would Carr be an underwhelming acquisition? I think people are getting spoiled by rumors this offseason with QBs. Hes not Deshaun Watson, but I know I don't want to go into next year with a train wreck at the position and watch the prime years of our defense slowly dwindle away. 

 

Hes ranked pretty close with Tannehill imo and I would take Tannehill in a second on this team.  Our rotation last year was just so bad, I never want to see something like that again lol.