Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

You have to do a cost analysis.

 

The point I can agree with: Finding the best quarterback for the franchise's situation is paramount.

 

But here's the thing... There is a world where that quarterback could be Kyle Allen or Alex Smith.

 

Alternate universe?  Unless its this one, I dont care : )

 

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Now, I think even as a card carrying Smith guy, it's safe for me to admit to the masses that even those of us who think the dude is an absolute monster would be much, much, much, much, much, MUCH more comfortable with a better talent at the quarterback position. Justin Fields, Trevor Lawrence, Zach Wilson maybe? Trey Lance maybe? There's a ton of guys I'd love to have there. Kyle Allen and Alex Smith as the quarterbacks are a scary factor for the offense from a production point of view. But they both DO bring some positives.

 

Familiarity. Continuity. Relationships. Psychology. 

 

What they lack in their ability to produce in stats they very well may bring to the team in other ways. 

 

Can Stafford do that? Maybe. We have no idea, as you said. But is the cost worth it? 

 

What happens if we trade a 1 and get Stafford's contract and he goes down in week 4? That's 20% of our salary cap on IR. 

 

Now, again, as a Smith fan - We just had that happen to us. I don't want to relive that nightmare.

 

We shouldn't do this, does anyone think the Cowboys bet on Dak getting hurt?  Or steelers with Ben last year?  It happens. Last year was first Stafford didn't play all 16 games in 8 straight seasons.  His odds of being healthy are high then Alex, no way we put eggs in that basket. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Stafford is aging, still not an old man, but aging. His torso is taking a beating.

 

Now, I'll cap this off with this statement: If we can get Stafford for a 3rd and his contract, I'd certainly consider it. I'd still be iffy, but more open. If we can get Stafford for a 3rd and a renegotiated contract where his cap hit isn't so big I'm more than open to at least exploring it.

 

But I think too many here are too willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Its okay to say our qb situation is ****.  Theres nothing to make the most of here, the starter is not on the roster, imo.

 

I believe you are being optimistic about them, I respect that, I jus don't agree with you to run with any of them next year. Allen is a junkyard dog, he'll get hurt again.

[PartyPosse]

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

We need to confirm what the cost will be before talking ourselves out of it.  I said I would, would you trade a first?  I don't know who Pitts is, ill listen.  If he's a rookie, I've already answered that question.

The elite TE coming out of Florida. If you had the option of 10 years of elite play from a TE or a couple years from an aging QB because he MAY be a slight upgrade at that position, is it worth it? If the team was older and about to fall apart like Denver did with Peyton then yes. But we’re not. We’re a young team with a bright future.

7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

We need to confirm what the cost will be before talking ourselves out of it.  I said I would, would you trade a first?  I don't know who Pitts is, ill listen.  If he's a rookie, I've already answered that question.

The elite TE coming out of Florida. If you had the option of 10 years of elite play from a TE or a couple years from an aging QB because he MAY be a slight upgrade at that position, is it worth it? If the team was older and about to fall apart like Denver did with Peyton then yes. But we’re not. We’re a young team with a bright future.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Alternate universe?  Unless its this one, I dont care : )

 

 

We shouldn't do this, does anyone think the Cowboys bet on Dak getting hurt?  Or steelers with Ben last year?  It happens. Last year was first Stafford didn't play all 16 games in 8 straight seasons.  His odds of being healthy are high then Alex, no way we put eggs in that basket. 

 

 

 

Its okay to say our qb situation is ****.  Theres nothing to make the most of here, the starter is not on the roster, imo.

 

I believe you are being optimistic about them, I respect that, I jus don't agree with you to run with any of them next year. Allen is a junkyard dog, he'll get hurt again.

I don’t disagree with any of what you’re saying, except me trying to be optimistic. I’m trying to be realistic.

 

Rookie QB contracts are the absolute key to building a winning team unless you have a QB that is unquestionably elite. 
 

You want to shoot for those contracts. 
 

They are less of a hit on the cap and the QB you receive in the draft isn’t someone else’s damaged goods. 
 

Trading for Stafford is the opposite of that. 
 

He’s a very good, productive QB. He’s a QB who takes a ton of hits. He’s a QB that comes with a literally 20% of the cap hit. One guy. In a new city. A bunch of guys who don’t know him.  It’s an unbelievable gamble. 
 

Smith and Allen don’t mortgage your future. They bring more to the table than you are giving them credit for as well, but I’d be full of it if I sat here and said that either one of them leaves me feeling tingly inside at this point.

 

I don’t. 
 

If we’re going to trade draft capital for Stafford, I’d rather just try to move up for one of the rookies if this is an either/or proposition. 
 

I’d rather pay the 20% cap hit to a guy and NOT give up the draft capital, too. 
 

I really am not a fan of giving up assets AND cap on a whim.

 

I will say this, though, to make my point clear: If Stafford came here, integrated and kept himself relatively healthy... he’d be a good get. But that’s a lot of ifs. 
 

Also for the record, I don’t think our long term QB is on the roster, either. I’m in complete agreement. But I think our short term may be. 

[jnhutchi3]

12 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I get it. It’s never Alex. It’s always the team. SF chased the dragon and it backfired. They went 12-4 the next year and then fell off a cliff. The team declined significantly year by year and by year three of the post Alex world the team was dead last in offense. KC went in a different direction because the defense fell apart and they wanted to change things up. They wanted to be an offensive-minded team, something that isn’t Alex’s game. 

 

Yeah, the 49ers must be kicking themselves for letting Smith go.  Kaepernick regressed badly during his last couple of years there.

[Renegade7]

6 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

The elite TE coming out of Florida. If you had the option of 10 years of elite play from a TE or a couple years from an aging QB because he MAY be a slight upgrade at that position, is it worth it? If the team was older and about to fall apart like Denver did with Peyton then yes. But we’re not. We’re a young team with a bright future.

 

Saying Stafford is a slight upgrade is a slight against him when comparing to our current QB production. 

 

Pitts needs a QB, the thread is about who is the QB in 2021, not TE.  Thats Logan Thomas, he's pretty good right now.  Neither him nor Stafford have to be MVPs, thats not what this is about.

[HigSkin]

Keyshawn Johnson said something interesting on NFL Live tonight and I'm paraphrasing but like "Derrick Carr you'd better start winning or you'll wind up in Washington".  I found it initially amusing but then started thinking about it.  i don't think Carr is the reason why the Raiders are losing or at least not all on him but that he's decent QB. 

 

There are so many scenario's that might occur in the offseason with available QB's that we aren't even covering in this thread.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by HigSkin

[PartyPosse]

11 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Saying Stafford is a slight upgrade is a slight against him when comparing to our current QB production. 

 

Pitts needs a QB, the thread is about who is the QB in 2021, not TE.  Thats Logan Thomas, he's pretty good right now.  Neither him nor Stafford have to be MVPs, thats not what this is about.

My point is you’re sacrificing the team’s chances for a gamble for the team now, which is fine if the team was filled with vets. This is a young team that has a wide open window. Add to those pieces for the long run. Stafford has great numbers but what does that really mean? 

4 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

Keyshawn Johnson said something interesting on NFL Live tonight and I'm paraphrasing but like "Derrick Carr you'd better start winning or you'll wind up in Washington".  I found it initially amusing but then started thinking about it.  i don't think Carr is the reason why the Raiders are losing or at least not all on him but that he's decent QB. 

 

There are so many scenario's that might occur in the offseason with available QB's that we aren't even covering in this thread.

 

 

There are a handful of elite QBs that live up to massive contracts. More often than not (Carr, Wentz, Ryan, Flacco) they are one of the primary reasons a team falls from grace.

[wit33]

All this nuanced discussion about QBs. Love it. 
 

Should be an interesting off season at that spot. 

[Renegade7]

8 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

My point is you’re sacrificing the team’s chances for a gamble for the team now, which is fine if the team was filled with vets. This is a young team that has a wide open window. Add to those pieces for the long run. Stafford has great numbers but what does that really mean? 

 

We already have an older veteran QB, why not get another one even with a young team?

 

We don't need a TE, we need the best QB we can get. Tired of losing.

 

I'm suprised no one has brought up Watson yet.  I'm waiting for him to want out, its gotta be coming.  Pipedream, sure,  but not impossible.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Renegade7

[PartyPosse]

10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

We already have an older veteran QB, why not get another one even with a young team?

 

We don't need a TE, we need the best QB we can get. Tired of losing.

 

I'm suprised no one has brought up Watson yet.  I'm waiting for him to want out, its gotta be coming.  Pipedream, sure,  but not impossible.

I love Watson but that contract is ginormous. 
 

And if you hate losing then I hate to tel you, Alex is 10-4 in starts here.

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I love Watson but that contract is ginormous. 
 

 

Lolz, I know, but its coming : )

 

2 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

And if you hate losing then I hate to tel you, Alex is 10-4 in starts here.

 

his health is just siren red right now, man, I can't extrapolate that to 2021.

[sjinhan]

28 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I love Watson but that contract is ginormous. 
 

And if you hate losing then I hate to tel you, Alex is 10-4 in starts here.

 
Watson would be awesome.  I dont mind shelling out QB money to good QBs but lets not trade away draft capital AND also pay these high QB salaries.

 

if we can someone get Watson, Stafford, or anyone like without having to trade away significant draft capital then we need to do that without a doubt

[NoCalMike]

I mean we have to be realistic, you aren't going to get a premier QB on a budget contract.  It is the one position that comes with a huge price tag if the QB is a franchise QB. 

[PartyPosse]

41 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Lolz, I know, but its coming : )

 

 

his health is just siren red right now, man, I can't extrapolate that to 2021.

I understand the injury concern and for me that’s the primary reason I would consider changing QBs. However, Stafford has had a lot of minor and major injuries that last couple seasons and it’s only a matter of time before it catches up to him.

[Number 44]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

If you think in a vacuum you're going to get sucked in.

[Koolblue13]

Winston or Darnold for me. I want Smith too.

[jnhutchi3]

2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 And 2 contending teams felt he was not good enough so they moved in a different direction. The operative word is contending teams.  Alex Smith has played on good teams, that is why they were contenders not Alex Smith. They both improved and went further once he was replaced.   

 

Sonny Jurgenson would disagree that winning is a  QB stat. So would DeShaun Watson and Mathew Stafford for that matter.  

 

What crazy revisionist history.  San Francisco fell off a cliff less than two years after letting go of Smith.  They made a huge mistake choosing Kaepernick over Smith, obviously.

 

Stafford hasn't won diddly squat either, going by your standard.  Yet for some reason you hold Smith to a much higher standard.

[Burgundy Yoda]

12 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A third and Kendall Fuller for Stafford?  😀

Bye Kendall, thank you for your service 🙂

Edited December 18, 2020 by Burgundy Yoda

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

The elite TE coming out of Florida. If you had the option of 10 years of elite play from a TE or a couple years

 

I seriously doubt we have a shot to land Pitts.  He's potentially a top 10 pick.  

[KillBill26]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

I don't think winning/losing is a QB statistic, I truly believe teams win and lose games and not any one guy. But I do believe that there are just some quarterbacks who inspire entire teams do it everything possible to be successful and Smith is one of those guys.

 

The proof of that is to ignore his individual statistics and take a look at the club's winning % with him at QB and without him at QB. Smith has played in less than almost two seasons worth of games than the team has played since his arrival and they have won more games with him at the helm than everyone else... combined. That is not a coincidence. 

Agreed.

 

In 2018, redskins were 6-4 with smith as starting qb (including houston game which he didn't finish). Redskins went 1-5 the rest of the way without him.

 

In 2019 without smith, Redskins went 3-13.

 

In 2020, in games smith doesn't start, they are 2-6.  With smith starting, they are 4-1, including at dallas and at pittsburgh.

 

Totals:

 

with smith: 10-5 (I'm counting houston game)

Without smith: 6-24

 

I understand how comparing qbs by their win loss record can be misleading, but those numbers are staggering.  Especially when looking at situations in 2018 and 2020, when the supporting cast / coaching staff was the same, and there was that big of a difference in winning pct, it's impossible not to give AS a lot of credit for it.  We should be confident in our ability to win with him.  He has proven to single handedly to be a huge difference maker, considering that's not exactly a small sample size!  Imagine keeping AS and using resources to help make his supporting cast even better.  Hope AS decides to come back.

[Bonez3]

Two 1st's and a 3rd for Mariota. 

 

Just saying

[zCommander]

1 minute ago, Bonez3 said:

Two 1st's and a 3rd for Mariota. 

 

Just saying

 

He is playing real well tonight after coming in for Carr. He is a backup so you don't have to give up that much to get him. 

[Renegade7]

Alex almost lost his leg, every game he plays is like the dealer losing track of the cards at the casino and us winning because of it.

 

I know one thing, I dont agree with being scared of Staffords health and embracing Alex health.  

 

Be consistent, im open to accepting that point, though I dont believe its as close as some make it seem.

 

Why I get Darnold. 

[CapsSkins]

Mariota looking pretty damn good...

[Burgundy Yoda]

Someone please sell me on Darnold. Its obvious his team is awful and Gase is an awful play-caller, but what has he done to convince some of you all that he's worth trading for?

 

I cant bite on the team holding him back argument. Look how awful the Bengals are without Joe Burrow, they are the Jets. Yet Burrow can overcome his awful situation and look good. I understand Darnold isn't Burrow but I would like to have seen him overcome the deficiencies of his team at some point. There just hasn't been anything thats sold me on him being a franchise QB, game manager? Sure. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Burgundy Yoda