Rookie QB or Veteran QB for "Next Season"??? (I didn't bump this, but I ended up being wrong anyway....)

[JoggingGod]

8 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Also, I would like to add in that prior to the start of next season, Stafford will be the same age as Donovan Mcnabb was when we traded for him.

Wrong actually. Stafford would be almost 33 and still in his prime vs 35 and obviously washed up when we traded for McNabb

6 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

Good point.  And McNabb had a lot more playoff success than Stafford has so far.

Wins aren’t a QB stat

[jnhutchi3]

2 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

This forum has a serious issue comprehending how the modern NFL works. I seriously don’t don’t understand how people are okay with Josh ****ing Rosen or Haskins as our starting QB just because they’re young but someone who’s borderline top 10 in Stafford would “ruin” this team.

 

No one is making that argument.  Smith or Allen should be the starting QB for the next two years.  Washington can be very competitive with these guys as QB.

 

If you are looking for a future QB beyond that, look for someone who has been a bust on other teams, like Rosen, Mariotta, or Wentz.  

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

Agreed.  I would take Wentz before I took Stafford.

I absolutely would not.

 

I think Wentz has gone through too much mentally in such a short span. I think he's shot. It happens. It's a shame but I think his magic is gone. 

2 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

Wrong actually. Stafford would be almost 33 and still in his prime vs 35 and obviously washed up when we traded for McNabb

Wins aren’t a QB stat

Stafford is turning 33 in February. Mcnabb was 33 when he was traded.

[jnhutchi3]

1 minute ago, JoggingGod said:

Wrong actually. Stafford would be almost 33 and still in his prime vs 35 and obviously washed up when we traded for McNabb

Wins aren’t a QB stat

 

Isn't that the whole point?  Winning?  Alex Smith seems to be pretty ****ing good at it.  This team was 6 - 3 before he got hurt, then they didn't win for 2 years.  And now they're finally winning again, now that Smith is back.  Coincidence?  Bull****.  You guys are too infatuated with QB ratings and passing yards.

 

There is no way that I would replace Smith with Stafford, not with Stafford's price tag.

[JoggingGod]

2 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

No one is making that argument.  Smith or Allen should be the starting QB for the next two years.  Washington can be very competitive with these guys as QB.

 

If you are looking for a future QB beyond that, look for someone who has been a bust on other teams, like Rosen, Mariotta, or Wentz.  

You’re on drugs if you think any of those guys are getting us anywhere, unless Wentz returns to previous form. Mariota? Are you not seeing how much better the Titans were JUST by switching him out for Tannehill?

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, jnhutchi3 said:

There is no way that I would replace Smith with Stafford, not with Stafford's price tag.

I would if Smith went back the other way. Having both on the roster means like 60 million tied up in two QBs with injury history

[Anselmheifer]

Just now, PartyPosse said:

I absolutely would not.

 

I think Wentz has gone through too much mentally in such a short span. I think he's shot. It happens. It's a shame but I think his magic is gone. 

 

This year, Wentz completed 57.4% of his passes for 241yds/gm with 16 TD and 15 INT and a rating of 72.8. Stafford completed 63.9% of his passes for 277 yards/gm 22 TD's 9 INT's and a 94.8 passer rating. 

And for whoever said that we don't have better offensive pieces than Detroit, who do they have? McLaurin is league's better than Marvin Jones. Antonio Gibson is clearly better than DeAndre Swift. Look at the stats. TJ Hockenson is better than anything we have at TE. But, if we add Stafford, we are one draft class and one FA WR away from a top 10-12 offense. 

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Let’s be honest, is the offense any better than what he’s had in Detroit? I feel like just with Cousins there was always an excuse, a justification as to why he was always good but not great. Lack of weapons, no OL, no RB etc. Some QBs just have a knack of elevating their to the point where that doesn’t matter. GB doesn’t really have much by way of weapons. NE didn’t for a while. I’m not saying it’s easy to find a Rodgers or a Brady but what good is having Stafford behind center if what we’ve seen is as good as as it’s going to get?

 

I disagree with some of this including the weapons argument about GB but its irrelevant to the point so i'll stick to this:  we aren't obviously going to get a dude like Aaron Rodgers or Brees in his prime etc in a trade or FA.  So what do we have left?  Chasing good QBs.

 

I liked Kirk better than most because what was our alternative and how easy is it to find good QBs?  We haven't had a fun ride on that count in the 20 years under Dan.   We were competitive with Kirk with mostly a bad defense and poor running game.   We didn't have a McLaurin or arguably a Gibson with Kirk albiet we had multiple receivers who could play.   Now imagine we add a receiver to the group we got.  Add a MLB to make a great defense even greater.  And then add a good QB to that mix?

 

I actually like Stafford over Kirk for 3 reasons:  Stafford is more clutch.  He has a stronger arm and is more mobile.  The weird thing for Stafford compared to the typical veteran QB on the market is he is a high ceiling talent.   Kirk is an efficient QB as is Alex but neither are monster talents.  Stafford is a monster talent.    I agree that he's an enigma to an extent that for a dude with that kind of talent he's been good but not Aaron Rodgers level good.  But I'd take his level of good. 

 

I am not big on putting wins and loses on the QB especially when they have a unit that stinks.  PFF right now ranks the Lions defense dead last in the league.  Remember even Alex Smith put up career numbers against the Lions this season.  Alex looked like Tom Brady against them. 

 

https://www.prideofdetroit.com/2020/11/24/21663611/aaron-rodgers-matthew-stafford-doesnt-gets-anywhere-near-the-credit-he-deserves

Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers joined “The Pat McAfee Show” this week and he brought up Stafford completely unprompted. The conversation turned to no-look passes, and podcast host Pat McAfee ironically joked with Rodgers that he was so glad Patrick Mahomes invented the no-look pass. While the comment was meant to compliment Rodgers for similar no-look passes throughout his career, the Packers quarterback wanted to give Stafford some love, too.

“I will say this, a guy who probably doesn’t get anywhere near the credit for doing "stuff" like that all the time: He wears number nine and plays in Detroit,” Rodgers said. “That dude, what he does with the ball is impressive. It’s really really impressive. I know Dan Orlovsky will highlight some stuff from time to time, because they played together and they’re good friends—which he should—but that dude is throwing crazy no-lookers all the time, and he can throw from any arm angle.”

 

 

https://www.espn.com/blog/detroit-lions/post/_/id/36924/matt-patricia-was-supposed-to-be-a-defensive-guru-so-why-is-detroits-defense-so-bad

 

Thirty-six games into Patricia’s tenure, that hasn’t happened. It’s due in large part to the side of the ball Patricia knows so well: defense. The Lions (1-3) are once again near the bottom of the league in many major defensive categories, including yards per game (405.0, No. 28), yards per play (6.16, No. 26), rushing yards per game (170.3, No. 32) and yards per rush (5.16, No. 29).

 

“We have to do a better job [against] the run ... play with better fundamentals and technique, and just be consistent,” Patricia said. “I mean, that’s the biggest thing for us right now. We have some good run plays on tape and just unfortunately too many bad ones.”

Detroit is allowing too many first downs (27.3, No. 31) and isn’t getting to the quarterback enough when opponents do pass, sacking the QB on just 4% of passing attempts. According to Football Outsiders, the Lions have the third-worst defensive DVOA in the NFL at 10.8%, a measure of a team’s efficiency.

These are continuing trends from last year, when the Lions gave up 400.4 yards and 284.4 passing yards per game and were last in the league in interception percentage (1.1) and next to last in sack percentage (4.6).

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[jnhutchi3]

2 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

You’re on drugs if you think any of those guys are getting us anywhere, unless Wentz returns to previous form. Mariota? Are you not seeing how much better the Titans were JUST by switching him out for Tannehill?

 

Are you not seeing how much better Washington is from last year, now that Smith is back?

 

People thought Colt McCoy was shot, too, and he wasn't.  I don't buy all the stupid sports talk media drama.  These guys can still play, they just need to rebuild their confidence in a good situation.  

[PartyPosse]

2 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

You’re on drugs if you think any of those guys are getting us anywhere, unless Wentz returns to previous form. Mariota? Are you not seeing how much better the Titans were JUST by switching him out for Tannehill?

I agree with that, however I don't think the Titans situation was as simple as a QB replacement. They became a run-heavy team and Henry really elevated his game to become the focal point of that offense. Was Tannehill an upgrade? No doubt, but that wasn't the primary reason for the turnaround.

[JoggingGod]

2 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

Isn't that the whole point?  Winning?  Alex Smith seems to be pretty ****ing good at it.  This team was 6 - 3 before he got hurt, then they didn't win for 2 years.  And now they're finally winning again, now that Smith is back.  Coincidence?  Bull****.  You guys are too infatuated with QB ratings and passing yards.

 

There is no way that I would replace Smith with Stafford, not with Stafford's price tag.

“HURR DURR QB WINZ”

Smith was never the ****ing reason we won. It was all the defense. He’s literally one of the bottom QBs this year.

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

Stafford may not be a gamble from a playing perspective, but he is a gamble from a money and planning-for-the-future perspective.  And that does matter.  

 

And even veteran QBs struggle in new offenses.  Case in point -- Brady in Tampa Bay.

 

Planning for the future I can kinda see, assuming we're giving up a 1st round pick for Stafford. But money? Assuming we pick up his contract, it's not that bad. At $9.5 million, his salary is half of what we'll be paying Alex Smith in 2021, though Stafford does have a $10 million roster bonus, but IIRC the trading teams can negotiate around that, can't they?

 

Now Wentz? YIKES. $15.4 million next season then $22 million in 2022, and his contact goes through 2024 at $20+ million per year. That can always be re-negotiated, but it's not like Wentz has to re-negotiate it with his new team if they pick up the current contract.

[JoggingGod]

3 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

Are you not seeing how much better Washington is from last year, now that Smith is back?

 

People thought Colt McCoy was shot, too, and he wasn't.  I don't buy all the stupid sports talk media drama.  These guys can still play, they just need to rebuild their confidence in a good situation.  

Do you even watch the ****ing games or do you just look at the standings and make your own conclusions? 

Edited December 17, 2020 by JoggingGod

[PartyPosse]

3 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

This year, Wentz completed 57.4% of his passes for 241yds/gm with 16 TD and 15 INT and a rating of 72.8. Stafford completed 63.9% of his passes for 277 yards/gm 22 TD's 9 INT's and a 94.8 passer rating. 

And for whoever said that we don't have better offensive pieces than Detroit, who do they have? McLaurin is league's better than Marvin Jones. Antonio Gibson is clearly better than DeAndre Swift. Look at the stats. TJ Hockenson is better than anything we have at TE. But, if we add Stafford, we are one draft class and one FA WR away from a top 10-12 offense. 

I think you're discounting not having Golladay in the lineup who is on par if not an upgrade over Terry (no disrespect to him). I also think you're grossly overrating Gibson or underrating Swift. You, like so many other here, are completely fixated on stats alone to tell the story. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

People thought Colt McCoy was shot, too, and he wasn't.  I don't buy all the stupid sports talk media drama.  These guys can still play, they just need to rebuild their confidence in a good situation.  

 

The Giants defense won the game against Seattle.  I watched that whole game.  Colt was "meh".  

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

anning for the future I can kinda see, assuming we're giving up a 1st round pick for Stafford. But money? Assuming we pick up his contract, it's not that bad. At $9.5 million, his salary is half of what we'll be paying Alex Smith in 2021, though Stafford does have a $10 million roster bonus, but IIRC the trading teams can negotiate around that, can't they?

Salary isn't nearly as important as cap hit. Stafford could be making a billion dollars a year but if his cap hit is a buck fifty then pay the man.

[jnhutchi3]

Just now, JoggingGod said:

Do you even watch the ****ing games or do you just look at the standings and make your own conclusions? 

 

I watch the games more than you do, obviously.  Hence, this is why you care more about nonsense like QB ratings than wins/losses.  It's obvious that Smith should not be replaced right now, least of all by the salary cap-busting Stafford.

 

You were probably saying the same thing about Colt McKoy 7 - 8 years ago.  And now he is probably going to take Doug Jones' job in New York, when he should still be here with Washington.

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

Are you not seeing how much better Washington is from last year, now that Smith is back?

 

People thought Colt McCoy was shot, too, and he wasn't.  I don't buy all the stupid sports talk media drama.  These guys can still play, they just need to rebuild their confidence in a good situation.  

 

Our offense really isn't very good. Smith looks much better than Haskins, but that's saying nothing. The only time our offense has done anything of note was beating up on a horrible Dallas defense. Outside of that they've been between awful and pedestrian. Alex is a great feel-good story and what he's come back from is amazing. But that doesn't change that he's a completely average QB in almost every way. He always has been.

 

We are where we are right now because of our defense. We're mostly winning in spite of our offense. 

[PartyPosse]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The weird thing for Stafford compared to the typical veteran QB on the market is he is a high ceiling talent. 

What's that ceiling? 

 

Also, GB has Devonte and that's it. Robert Tonyan was a practice squad guy, Scantling was a 5th rounder from 2018 and they drafted absolutely no one to help out in the offense other thant a change of pace RB. 

 

Lastly, Stafford is really no different than Cousins. Both are hovering around 25/10 guy with a lot of yards because they're throwing a lot thanks to an awful defense. I like Stafford a lot, but don't think he's worth changing the chemistry at this point as long as Smith is playing competent ball. If you see him as a long term answer then I won't talk you out of that. 

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

I watch the games more than you do, obviously.  Hence, this is why you care more about nonsense like QB ratings than wins/losses.  It's obvious that Smith should not be replaced right now, least of all by the salary cap-busting Stafford.

 

You were probably saying the same thing about Colt McKoy 7 - 8 years ago.  And now he is probably going to take Doug Jones' job in New York, when he should still be here with Washington.

 

No wonder the Giants have been so bad. They've had a 66 year old senator playing QB for them. 

[jnhutchi3]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The Giants defense won the game against Seattle.  I watched that whole game.  Colt was "meh".  

 

I'm not talking about the Giants game.  I thought McKoy was better than Cousins and RG III 5 - 6 years ago, when all 3 of them were battling for the starting job in Washington.

[Skinsinparadise]

35 minutes ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

No, but I would easily take Smith over Trent Dilfer.  I would take Smith over Brad Johnson and Peyton Manning as well.

 

You are harping on the exceptions to the rule.  Dilfer doesn't represent the average QB who won the SB.  If your point is lets go crazy and try to win a SB in an unconventional way and hope to get lucky like the rare previous exceptions -- I'd follow the logic.  But I'd preface my point that way.  Alex will be 37.  He's not that mobile.  Just counting on him lasting through the season and playoffs and him playing his best career ball in the playoffs is one heck of a roll of the dice (his playoff career record is 2-5).

 

If my math is correct the price of having Alex be the starter next year and Stafford isn't that different.   Assuming Detriot has to eat the bonus money. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Skinsinparadise

[jnhutchi3]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

Our offense really isn't very good. Smith looks much better than Haskins, but that's saying nothing. The only time our offense has done anything of note was beating up on a horrible Dallas defense. Outside of that they've been between awful and pedestrian. Alex is a great feel-good story and what he's come back from is amazing. But that doesn't change that he's a completely average QB in almost every way. He always has been.

 

We are where we are right now because of our defense. We're mostly winning in spite of our offense. 

 

I disagree.  Smith was smoking hot in the second half against both Detroit and Pittsburgh.  This coming from a guy who has not played in 2 years.

 

Smith is an inspiration to the whole team, which is more important than Stafford and his precious QB rating.

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You are harping on the exceptions to the rule.  Dilfer doesn't represent the average QB who won the SB.  If your point is lets go crazy and try to win a SB in an unconventional way and hope to get lucky like the rare previous exceptions -- I'd follow the logic.  But I'd preface my point that way.  Alex will be 37.  He's not that mobile.  Just counting on him lasting through the season and playoffs and him playing his best career ball in the playoffs is one heck of a roll of the dice (his playoff career record is 2-5).

 

If my math is correct the price of having Alex be the starter next year and Stafford isn't that different.   Assuming Detriot has to eat the bonus money. 

 

OK, but you can win a Super Bowl with the exception to the rule.  It's been proven.

 

I would not put Stafford in the company of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Troy Aikman, either.  Therefore, I'm not sure what your point is.  Because Stafford ain't those guys, either.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, jnhutchi3 said:

 

I'm not talking about the Giants game.  I thought McKoy was better than Cousins and RG III 5 - 6 years ago, when all 3 of them were battling for the starting job in Washington.

 

you mean the 2014 season?  Colt had a 36.4 QBR rating that year which is abysmal.  But i agree that was probably his best season here.  Kirk was shaky and RG3 likewise that year.  It's part of the reason why Jay kept shuffiling them that season. 

 

 

[jnhutchi3]

7 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

No wonder the Giants have been so bad. They've had a 66 year old senator playing QB for them. 

Daniel Jones, excuse me.