2021 Draft Order / Tracker: Current Pick #19

[Cooleyfan1993]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think this is a bad take on a take.

 

Haskins attitude cost him his role. Not his play. It is markedly different.

It wasn’t a take, it was a simple question just out of curiousity. And riggos answer was a good one  

[PartyPosse]

39 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The wild swings on rookie play around here are why many people don’t think a rookie QB would be able to develop in DC. You guys know that, right?

 

Last week Tua was a stud, this week we aren’t impressed. 
 

Chase Young is good then a waste. 
 

Except Herbert. He’s just good. 
 

Crazy in here.

 

EDIT: just saw someone in another thread say Burrow isn’t the best QB in the class... it’s ten weeks in and the guy just blew out his ACL. 
 

Never change, guys!

I've been pretty consistent with my stance. It's always been, you don't know squat about a player in their first year and for anyone to deviate away from pre-draft impression so fast is simply asinine. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

I've been pretty consistent with my stance. It's always been, you don't know squat about a player in their first year and for anyone to deviate away from pre-draft impression so fast is simply asinine. 

Clearly I wasn’t referencing you.

[PartyPosse]

Just now, KDawg said:

Clearly I wasn’t referencing you.

No, YOU'RE A BUST!

[Dirt]

This is such a hard topic to comment on for me.  The discussion is a lot of repeating things over and over yet a lot of ideas and lines of thinking.

 

I've stuck to this one lately:  plenty of QBs have been drafted outside of the top 3 picks that wind up fine or good or great.  As far as we're concerned, we need to worry about committing to a new QB let alone developing them.  We've failed at both, no one knew who the coach was gonna be half the time, and Snyder had to be involved in these decisions.

 

So the draft pick # itself just doesn't ****ing matter until we stabilize the process.  Keep Dan away.  Wherever you pick, pick a guy the coaches like and go.  I like the idea of a second round QB developing as much as I like the idea of having the 1st overall because that high pick hasn't meant **** for us QB wise as long as I've been alive.

 

So I don't care where we pick and I wanna see the cowboys lose on Thanksgiving.  I wanna be the NFC east winner even in this awful year.   I wanna see the team win.  Its all I got left.

[Jericho]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I get what you're saying but in today's NFL you want to get that QB as soon as possible. You get a talented young QB on a rookie contract you open up a 4-5 year window.

 

If we wait another year that's another year we essentially waste of guys like McLaurin, Gibson, Young, Sweat, etc.

 

You do. But I also feel like too often teams draft a QB because they feel they have to fill their need a QB. But that acts like all QB prospects are equal, which they clearly are not. Most drafts produce one bona fide long-term NFL starter. Some have more, some even have less. But so often teams take a guy just to take a guy. And that ends up doing is more harm than good if its not a solution. You want to take the right guy. And yeah, every QB pick carries some risk. But some are far riskier than others.

 

They are clearly two top shelf prospects in 2021. Washington will like have zero shot at either. Taking sloppy thirds and hoping doesn't seem like a great strategy. There is no good solution for QB in 2021. Teams generally don't deal good QBs. Free agency is often a wasteland. But when the choices are bad, sometimes the best choice is to wait.

[Sellersfan]

41 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The wild swings on rookie play around here are why many people don’t think a rookie QB would be able to develop in DC. You guys know that, right?

 

Last week Tua was a stud, this week we aren’t impressed. 
 

Chase Young is good then a waste. 
 

Except Herbert. He’s just good. 
 

Crazy in here.

 

EDIT: just saw someone in another thread say Burrow isn’t the best QB in the class... it’s ten weeks in and the guy just blew out his ACL. 
 

Never change, guys!

I would categorize our fan base as "mercurial". Hot and cold to the extremes due to being fans of a dysfunctional team. Some might say we as fans have become dysfunctional. Chase Young is a great example of this. Fans expecting rookie sack records to fall and anything less than DPOY is a failure to some?!?

 

Honestly this is my biggest concern about dropping a rookie QB in here on a team that is going through a "culture change". Not sure if we have the culture in place to allow a rookie QB to succeed. Rivera is going to churn more of the roster in the off-season, make changes in FA and the draft. We need to get a foundation in place with the right people in the right positions both on the field and in the office. 

We have seen this before with RG3. It wasn't only the knee/ankle injuries. It was also the frickin power struggle and head games between Snyder, RG3 and the Shanny's.   

[Warhead36]

14 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

You do. But I also feel like too often teams draft a QB because they feel they have to fill their need a QB. But that acts like all QB prospects are equal, which they clearly are not. Most drafts produce one bona fide long-term NFL starter. Some have more, some even have less. But so often teams take a guy just to take a guy. And that ends up doing is more harm than good if its not a solution. You want to take the right guy. And yeah, every QB pick carries some risk. But some are far riskier than others.

 

They are clearly two top shelf prospects in 2021. Washington will like have zero shot at either. Taking sloppy thirds and hoping doesn't seem like a great strategy. There is no good solution for QB in 2021. Teams generally don't deal good QBs. Free agency is often a wasteland. But when the choices are bad, sometimes the best choice is to wait.

I agree with you in that if you don't grade the QBs available to you in the draft very high, its better to take a super talented prospect at another position of need that is a sure bet to help you. See Chase Young this past year with Tua's injury history and Herbert being looked at as more of a project with lower % chance to succeed(obviously we were wrong on that).

 

Taking a QB just because you feel you need to take a QB is how you end up with a Jake Locker or Christian Ponder.

[Jericho]

4 hours ago, IrepDC said:

What happens in Washington while the rookie QB is playing okay and the team is losing? What has our fanbase and media shown you the past 20 years? Burrow knows that Cincinnati is behind him. That's not how our fanbase rocks. We will attack you until you prove us wrong. When we aren't winning, we are attacking Chase Young(our best young player), our DL(the strength of our team), and even drafting HOF LTs(one of the few things we are good at) in Washington. We eat our own!! Unless the QB shows unquestionable superstar ability, I've seen it enough to know it's a set up.

 

I'm not even sure what you are arguing for. Burrow was on pace to set basically every meaningful rookie QB record. He would be considered an unbelievably successful draft pick. I also don't agree with your assessment about the Washington fan base. It's really not that different from other cities. Not to mention, Washington has sucked for almost thirty years. If you can't draft arguably the best rookie QB ever, then what is the solution? Continue recycling has-beens (Brunell, McNabb, Smith) and never-wases (Campbell, Ramsey, Tony Banks, Grossman, probably Kyle Allen)? Cause that's worked so well for nearly 30 years.

[dyst]

We definitely need a QB, a good one and preferably one that is young so the entire team grows with him. The fear for me is this team will win itself out of contention for one of the good QBs this year so they will either force themselves to draft “a” QB or draft one in a year when it’s a weak class. You have to time these things sometimes.

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, Jericho said:

 

I'm not even sure what you are arguing for. Burrow was on pace to set basically every meaningful rookie QB record. He would be considered an unbelievably successful draft pick. I also don't agree with your assessment about the Washington fan base. It's really not that different from other cities. Not to mention, Washington has sucked for almost thirty years. If you can't draft arguably the best rookie QB ever, then what is the solution? Continue recycling has-beens (Brunell, McNabb, Smith) and never-wases (Campbell, Ramsey, Tony Banks, Grossman, probably Kyle Allen)? Cause that's worked so well for nearly 30 years.

A lot of the fanbase thinks its still the 80s where you can "build up" the rest of the team and have any schmoe at QB guide you to Super Bowls. Nevermind the fact that Theismann, Williams, and Rypien collectively played at the level of a franchise QB, but that's unsustainable in today's league. You gotta develop a guy and let him lead you for a decade+.

[PartyPosse]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

A lot of the fanbase thinks its still the 80s where you can "build up" the rest of the team and have any schmoe at QB guide you to Super Bowls. Nevermind the fact that Theismann, Williams, and Rypien collectively played at the level of a franchise QB, but that's unsustainable in today's league. You gotta develop a guy and let him lead you for a decade+.

Doug Williams and Franchise QB are two phrases that absolutely do not belong together.

[JoggingGod]

40 minutes ago, Jericho said:

They are clearly two top shelf prospects in 2021. Washington will like have zero shot at either. Taking sloppy thirds and hoping doesn't seem like a great strategy. There is no good solution for QB in 2021. Teams generally don't deal good QBs. Free agency is often a wasteland. But when the choices are bad, sometimes the best choice is to wait.

QB3 in 2020 is about to have the best rookie season for a QB ever. Shut up and stop acting like you know what you’re talking about.

[Jericho]

4 minutes ago, JoggingGod said:

QB3 in 2020 is about to have the best rookie season for a QB ever. Shut up and stop acting like you know what you’re talking about.

 

Thanks for the extremely rude response and complete misrepresentation of what I said.

 

My point wasn't that the third QB taken never works out. But it is true that the odds of finding a good one go down exponentially as you go down the draft board. It's also clear that not all years are the same and the third QB in one year might be better than then best QB in another year. Here are the 3rd QBs in each draft since Washington last won a Super Bowl:

 

Justin Herbert, Haskins, Josh Allen, Deshaun Watson, Paxton Lynch, Garrett Grayson, Teddy Bridgewater, Mike Glennon, Ryan Tannehill, Blaine Gabbert, Jimmy Clausen, Josh Freeman, Brian Brohm, Kevin Kolb, Jay Cutler, Jason Campbell, Ben Roethlisberger, Kyle Boller, Patrick Ramsey, Quincy Carter, Chris Redman, Akili Smith, Charlie Batch, Danny Wuerffel, Jeff Lewis, Todd Collins, Perry Klein, Billy Joe Hobert, Matt Blundin

 

So yeah, there is a Ben Roethlisberger in there. And a lot of crap. And while we still don't fully known what kind of careers Josh Allen or Deshaun Watson will have, I think most fans would love for that kind of upside. But those are the best case scenarios. A guy like Tannehill isn't bad, but frustrated Miami enough that he's now in Tennessee. Jay Cutler was pretty solid, but no team really considered him the answer. Maybe not coincidentally Haskins, Ramsey, and Campbell were all third choices.

[Dark Acre]

This is the kind of quarterback I want. 

 

[PartyPosse]

4 minutes ago, GothSkinsFan said:

This is the kind of quarterback I want. 

 

I wish that wall could play LB because it would be an instant upgrade.

[IrepDC]

1 hour ago, Jericho said:

 

I'm not even sure what you are arguing for. Burrow was on pace to set basically every meaningful rookie QB record. He would be considered an unbelievably successful draft pick. I also don't agree with your assessment about the Washington fan base. It's really not that different from other cities. Not to mention, Washington has sucked for almost thirty years. If you can't draft arguably the best rookie QB ever, then what is the solution? Continue recycling has-beens (Brunell, McNabb, Smith) and never-wases (Campbell, Ramsey, Tony Banks, Grossman, probably Kyle Allen)? Cause that's worked so well for nearly 30 years.

The solution is not feeding into the fans need for a new shiny toy until the foundation has been built. People underestimate how much Snyder has been influenced by the fans. Me saying that drafting a QB doesn't need to be a top priority this year isn't saying never draft one. We can draft one the following draft after Ron has had another year to established his culture. Build the team layer by layer. Priotize stabilizing the OL and LBs this off season and the team will be in a much better position as a team for a new shiny toy to succeed. Right now we have Alex Smith showing us what this team is capable of with competent QB play. Unless one of these QBs shows they are able to lead a team against great adversity and failure, what's the point? We know they will be torn apart here.

[Sellersfan]

35 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

The solution is not feeding into the fans need for a new shiny toy until the foundation has been built. People underestimate how much Snyder has been influenced by the fans. Me saying that drafting a QB doesn't need to be a top priority this year isn't saying never draft one. We can draft one the following draft after Ron has had another year to established his culture. Build the team layer by layer. Priotize stabilizing the OL and LBs this off season and the team will be in a much better position as a team for a new shiny toy to succeed. Right now we have Alex Smith showing us what this team is capable of with competent QB play. Unless one of these QBs shows they are able to lead a team against great adversity and failure, what's the point? We know they will be torn apart here.

Exactly! 
I expect WFT to be drafting in the the top 10 next year too. I get the impression that some fans think that the rebuild will be complete after 1 draft.

You can’t draft your franchise QB in the vacuum of 1 draft. If he isn’t there don’t force it.

Lawrence and Fields aren’t coming here so our best shot at a QB is Wilson or Lance. We can watch all the tape we want but what if Rivera interviews them and thinks they don't have leadership or character? We know Danny would probably still take them but Ron not so much.

[PartyPosse]

At the end of the day cincy is 2-7-1 and that’s with the additions of Burrow, Sample, Higgins and Williams. They may be more exciting and competitive but they’re still a looooong way from being serious contenders.

[Burgundy Yoda]

43 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

At the end of the day cincy is 2-7-1 and that’s with the additions of Burrow, Sample, Higgins and Williams. They may be more exciting and competitive but they’re still a looooong way from being serious contenders.

They may not be one until Big Ben retires. Having Baltimore and Pittsburgh in the same division is brutal. I think in a few years they'll be looking good. 

[PartyPosse]

8 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

They may not be one until Big Ben retires. Having Baltimore and Pittsburgh in the same division is brutal. I think in a few years they'll be looking good. 

Oh no doubt. But that’s because they’ll be adding pieces to the equation. He alone was going to turn this squad around. That kind of QB only comes around once in a blue moon. I don’t even think Mahomes is that guy.

[KDawg]

5 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

At the end of the day cincy is 2-7-1 and that’s with the additions of Burrow, Sample, Higgins and Williams. They may be more exciting and competitive but they’re still a looooong way from being serious contenders.

Could be us if we don’t find a way to fix backer!

[Darrell Green Fan]

9 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

A lot of the fanbase thinks its still the 80s where you can "build up" the rest of the team and have any schmoe at QB guide you to Super Bowls. Nevermind the fact that Theismann, Williams, and Rypien collectively played at the level of a franchise QB, but that's unsustainable in today's league. You gotta develop a guy and let him lead you for a decade+.

 

I have been making this argument for years here and it continues to fall on deaf ears by a segment of the posters. Nearly word for word.  Why fans can't see how Ryp and the others did in fact play like franchise QBs and when they didn't the team reverted still amazes me.  

[Thinking Skins]

9 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

Thanks for the extremely rude response and complete misrepresentation of what I said.

 

My point wasn't that the third QB taken never works out. But it is true that the odds of finding a good one go down exponentially as you go down the draft board. It's also clear that not all years are the same and the third QB in one year might be better than then best QB in another year. Here are the 3rd QBs in each draft since Washington last won a Super Bowl:

 

Justin Herbert, Haskins, Josh Allen, Deshaun Watson, Paxton Lynch, Garrett Grayson, Teddy Bridgewater, Mike Glennon, Ryan Tannehill, Blaine Gabbert, Jimmy Clausen, Josh Freeman, Brian Brohm, Kevin Kolb, Jay Cutler, Jason Campbell, Ben Roethlisberger, Kyle Boller, Patrick Ramsey, Quincy Carter, Chris Redman, Akili Smith, Charlie Batch, Danny Wuerffel, Jeff Lewis, Todd Collins, Perry Klein, Billy Joe Hobert, Matt Blundin

 

So yeah, there is a Ben Roethlisberger in there. And a lot of crap. And while we still don't fully known what kind of careers Josh Allen or Deshaun Watson will have, I think most fans would love for that kind of upside. But those are the best case scenarios. A guy like Tannehill isn't bad, but frustrated Miami enough that he's now in Tennessee. Jay Cutler was pretty solid, but no team really considered him the answer. Maybe not coincidentally Haskins, Ramsey, and Campbell were all third choices.

That's one way of looking at it, but you also have to question who we or another team (or you, the ideal GM) would have picked as the third QB in a given draft. 

 

For example - In 2016 Lynch was the third QB taken but Dallas took Dak in the 4th and he is arguably the best QB taken in that draft. In 2014, the third was Bridgewater and the 4th was Carr. 2012 there was the trio of Wilson, Cousins and Foles all taken after the top 3. 

 

But I think there's a certain question of what separates an Aaron Rogers from an Alex Smith from a Jason Campbell? What separates a Russell Wilson from other QBs? its one thing to be a pocket passer vs having mobility, and its one thing to be able to make all the throws, but I think there's more to it. I think there are certain competitive factors like leadership and as much as we hated RG3 after his rookie year (especially Gruden hated him in 2014) but he was oozing with leadership in 2012. Another thing is the competive factor, him being calm in the face of being down 10 with 6 minutes to go in the 4th. And then there is stuff like how much of a junkie is he, both a film junkie, a practice junkie, all the motivational quotes type stuff, etc. 

 

And I think some guys just have a knack for picking decent to good to great QBs. Nobody's going to hit 100% and for all the people who praise the Chargers for going from Brees to Rivers to Herbert, they (the franchise) also drafted Leaf. The Packers went from Favre to Rogers but were abysmal before that. And I think there are a lot of different philosophies from what makes up a good QB and we see some of it discussed here. Is making all the throws more important than intelligence? what about mobility? What about coachability? what about ability to sense pressure or not take a hit? accuracy vs arm strength? ability to create more time in the pocket? 

 

Not everybody's going to do all these things well and even the top prospects are going to have their knocks against them. Hopefully we just get a guy who can lead this team for the next dozen years or so soon because I just don't like the shuffling QBs every 2-3 years. 

[OVCChairman]

11 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

A lot of the fanbase thinks its still the 80s where you can "build up" the rest of the team and have any schmoe at QB guide you to Super Bowls. Nevermind the fact that Theismann, Williams, and Rypien collectively played at the level of a franchise QB, but that's unsustainable in today's league. You gotta develop a guy and let him lead you for a decade+.

 

 

this is absolutely true... but there are some of us that see the value in building the team FOR the franchise QB, not the schmoe.  Build the team up and if / when the right guy is there, he's got the supporting cast.  I hope the argument, that at least I have been making, isn't to avoid the QB position and plug Trent Dilfer or Rex Grossman in there to win...  but more, focus on the team if your slam dunk QB isn't there.  Don't reach on a QB that you may not be sold on, and continue to bring the floor of your team up.  That way when you are developing a QB the pieces are in place to support and transition... instead of drafting a guy like Trey Lance at 3 and getting upset when he can't lift the team up the way Burrow and Murray have.