2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[clskinsfan]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

So... I’m bored and wanting some quality convo...

 

I keep seeing “pro style system” being thrown around in here. What exactly do you all consider a pro style system to be?

It doesnt exist anymore. College and pro systems have merged into a brutally hard thing to diagnose for defensive coaches.

 

I am going to expand on this a little bit. I am a high school D coach. And even in our leagues the offenses have become extremely hard to diagnose. RPO was a high school system that moved up the ranks to college and now to the pro's. There is no true single offensive system anymore. It is all a mixture of RPO, spread, Air Coryell and West Coast. With zone blocking thrown in for good measure. At least until you get into the redzone and the field is compressed.  Imagine aligning zone read and running West Coast offense routes off of it? Or how about Spread offense with zone blocking run schemes out of it? Or even more hard RPO with Coryell routes in it. It is incredibly hard to diagnose and win as a defensive coach. That is the main reason I prefer 3-4 base and Nickle or Dime now. As a defense you need speed on  the field to win. The problem is you get gashed in the run game with your smaller players on the field. Unless you have a completely dominate DL. (Hello WFT). I still learn something new every single day. And a new offensive genius will be born tomorrow. That is what makes football so frikin incredible. It is a very rare thing when a new defense changes the game. See Buddy Ryan. Don Shula or Wade Phillips for example. Being a defensive coach means reacting to what the offense is doing the majority of the time. Instead of changing the game. Like the above referenced guys did.

Edited April 18, 2021 by clskinsfan

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

So... I’m bored and wanting some quality convo...

 

I keep seeing “pro style system” being thrown around in here. What exactly do you all consider a pro style system to be?

 

Anything that involves both of the following:

 

Huddling 40% of the time or more

Not looking at poster boards with characters on them as a play call

 

Pretty much that’s what all the heart ache is about.

[Anselmheifer]

10 minutes ago, GhostofAlvinWalton said:

 

Anything that involves both of the following:

 

Huddling 40% of the time or more

Not looking at poster boards with characters on them as a play call

 

Pretty much that’s what all the heart ache is about.

I think you'd also like to see the QB drop back enough from under center to be comfortable doing it. 

 

 

 

I love Tylan's Fire. We could use some more of that on the offensive side of the ball. I don't think he's going to be elite, but still love him as a mid round pick and #3 or #4 receiver. 

 

[Burgundy Yoda]

Apparently, Denver called Atlanta and made an offer for #4. 

Quote

That price, he speculates, is 2021 first- and third-round picks, as well as a 2022 third-round choice. In return, Denver would receive from Atlanta fourth- and fifth-rounders for this year — along with the opportunity to secure its potential franchise signal-caller, the inevitable end to the Drew Lock experiment.

https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/broncos-falcons-draft-trade-trey-lance-justin-fields-rumors?utm_source

 

If that's all moving up from 9 to 4 costs, I'm kind of upset we won that Eagles game now 😄

Edited April 18, 2021 by Burgundy Yoda

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

It doesnt exist anymore. College and pro systems have merged into a brutally hard thing to diagnose for defensive coaches.

 

I am going to expand on this a little bit. I am a high school D coach. And even in our leagues the offenses have become extremely hard to diagnose. RPO was a high school system that moved up the ranks to college and now to the pro's. There is no true single offensive system anymore. It is all a mixture of RPO, spread, Air Coryell and West Coast. With zone blocking thrown in for good measure. At least until you get into the redzone and the field is compressed.  Imagine aligning zone read and running West Coast offense routes off of it? Or how about Spread offense with zone blocking run schemes out of it? Or even more hard RPO with Coryell routes in it. It is incredibly hard to diagnose and win as a defensive coach. That is the main reason I prefer 3-4 base and Nickle or Dime now. As a defense you need speed on  the field to win. The problem is you get gashed in the run game with your smaller players on the field. Unless you have a completely dominate DL. (Hello WFT). I still learn something new every single day. And a new offensive genius will be born tomorrow. That is what makes football so frikin incredible. It is a very rare thing when a new defense changes the game. See Buddy Ryan. Don Shula or Wade Phillips for example. Being a defensive coach means reacting to what the offense is doing the majority of the time. Instead of changing the game. Like the above referenced guys did.

Hello fellow HS D Coach.

 

Though I will add this:

 

Your point kind of got away from the point I was making while still addressing it.

 

I saw someone saw Mills was a good prospect because he played in a pro style system. Obviously... I don’t think that’s a very real boon to his prospectus due to the fact they all play in pro style systems nowadays. @clskinsfan

Edited April 18, 2021 by KDawg

[clskinsfan]

2 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Apparently, Denver called Atlanta and made an offer for #4. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/broncos-falcons-draft-trade-trey-lance-justin-fields-rumors?utm_source

 

If that's all moving up from 9 to 4 costs, I'm kind of upset we won that Eagles game now 😄

A little surprised they are ready to give up on Lock already. He hasnt been horrid in all honesty. 

[mhd24]

1 minute ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Apparently, Denver called Atlanta and made an offer for #4. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/broncos-falcons-draft-trade-trey-lance-justin-fields-rumors?utm_source

 

If that's all moving up from 9 to 4 costs, I'm kind of upset we won that Eagles game now 😄

 

 

Woody is plugged in to the Broncos.  However, that trade makes no sense compensation wise.  The Falcons have high 4th and 5th rounders.  Getting a relatively high 3rd and a 3rd next year for moving down 5 spots (and losing Pitts and high 4th and 5th rounders) is robbery by the Broncos.

 

If Denver wants 4, they have to give up a minimum of #9+2021 3rd+2022 1st.  Even then, I don't know if Atlanta does it (and gives up Pitts).  Say Denver takes QB at Lance/Fields at 4:

5). Cin-Pitts

6). Mia-Chase

7). Det-Sewell

8). Car-Slater/Trade down for last QB

9). Atl-Surtain/Horn/Parsons

 

If I'm Atlanta, I only make the trade if I'm getting Denver's 2022 1st.  Even then, I don't know if I'd give up a super blue-chipper like Pitts.  Cincy never trades down (and won't pass on Pitts/Chase/Sewell) and Miami isn't trading down after moving back up (will take Pitts/Chase/Waddle).  If Sewell is on the board, I don't think Detroit trades down.  Denver can be patient and let the QBs fall to them.

[Burgundy Yoda]

3 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

A little surprised they are ready to give up on Lock already. He hasnt been horrid in all honesty. 

Teams seem so much more willing to give up on their young QBs these days. Their windows have gotten very small. Denver probably thinks Lock won't ever become a star type QB so they might as well roll the dice on a new QB. 

3 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

Woody is plugged in to the Broncos.  However, that trade makes no sense compensation wise.  The Falcons have high 4th and 5th rounders.  Getting a relatively high 3rd and a 3rd next year for moving down 5 spots (and losing Pitts and high 4th and 5th rounders) is robbery by the Broncos.

 

If Denver wants 4, they have to give up a minimum of #9+2021 3rd+2022 1st.  Even then, I don't know if Atlanta does it (and gives up Pitts).  Say Denver takes QB at Lance/Fields at 4:

5). Cin-Pitts

6). Mia-Chase

7). Det-Sewell

8). Car-Slater/Trade down for last QB

9). Atl-Surtain/Horn/Parsons

 

If I'm Atlanta, I only make the trade if I'm getting Denver's 2022 1st.  Even then, I don't know if I'd give up a super blue-chipper like Pitts.  Cincy never trades down (and won't pass on Pitts/Chase/Sewell) and Miami isn't trading down after moving back up (will take Pitts/Chase/Waddle).  If Sewell is on the board, I don't think Detroit trades down.  Denver can be patient and let the QBs fall to them.

Many fans overvalue high picks IMO. I really wouldn't be surprised if the return is less than what people anticipate, it's typically a case by case basis. Maybe Atlanta really likes a player that will be there at 9. I think the value is low but 4 to 9 isn't that huge of a drop. 

[JoggingGod]

12 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Apparently, Denver called Atlanta and made an offer for #4. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/broncos-falcons-draft-trade-trey-lance-justin-fields-rumors?utm_source

 

If that's all moving up from 9 to 4 costs, I'm kind of upset we won that Eagles game now 😄

Allbright is saying they haven't reached out to Atlanta

[clskinsfan]

9 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Hello fellow HS D Coach.

 

Though I will add this:

 

Your point kind of got away from the point I was making while still addressing it.

 

I saw someone saw Mills was a good prospect because he played in a pro style system. Obviously... I don’t think that’s a very real boon to his prospectus due to the fact they all play in pro style systems nowadays. @clskinsfan

Agree completely. I watched tape on Mills a few weeks ago and he looks like a pro QB to me. Reminds me a lot of Daniel Jones in all honesty. Has nothing to do with the system he ran. His arm is much more solid than some on here give him credit for. The guy can make all of the throws. Problem is he hasnt played a whole lot due to injury. He is a project. But a nice piece of clay to mold non the less. 

[mhd24]

6 minutes ago, Burgundy Yoda said:

Teams seem so much more willing to give up on their young QBs these days. Their windows have gotten very small. Denver probably thinks Lock won't ever become a star type QB so they might as well roll the dice on a new QB. 

Many fans overvalue high picks IMO. I really wouldn't be surprised if the return is less than what people anticipate, it's typically a case by case basis. Maybe Atlanta really likes a player that will be there at 9. I think the value is low but 4 to 9 isn't that huge of a drop. 

Yeah, but why would Atlanta give up a high 4th and a high 5th for a relatively high 3rd, a future 3rd and moving down 5 spots?  They are losing value on that trade big time.  Atlanta IMO is staying out and taking Pitts unless they are blown away by an offer

[JoggingGod]

1 minute ago, mhd24 said:

Yeah, but why would Atlanta give up a high 4th and a high 5th for a relatively high 3rd, a future 3rd and moving down 5 spots?  They are losing value on that trade big time.  Atlanta IMO is staying out and taking Pitts unless they are blown away by an offer

Yeah that's a garbage trade lol. They would just stay at 4 and take Pitts.

[Burgundy Yoda]

4 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

Yeah, but why would Atlanta give up a high 4th and a high 5th for a relatively high 3rd, a future 3rd and moving down 5 spots?  They are losing value on that trade big time.  Atlanta IMO is staying out and taking Pitts unless they are blown away by an offer

Hey man, I'm just the messenger lol. 

[KDawg]

9 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Agree completely. I watched tape on Mills a few weeks ago and he looks like a pro QB to me. Reminds me a lot of Daniel Jones in all honesty. Has nothing to do with the system he ran. His arm is much more solid than some on here give him credit for. The guy can make all of the throws. Problem is he hasnt played a whole lot due to injury. He is a project. But a nice piece of clay to mold non the less. 

Yup. He’s traity. I have no idea if he has the goods but I like his ceiling more than Trask’s. 
 

For what it’s worth, and this is coming from a guy with a very young team on his hands right now... so keep that in mind.

 

They way to slow down the RPOs is disguising blitzes and coverages. Young QBs hate that.

[mistertim]

33 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I saw someone saw Mills was a good prospect because he played in a pro style system. Obviously... I don’t think that’s a very real boon to his prospectus due to the fact they all play in pro style systems nowadays. @clskinsfan

 

I've noted that Mills playing in a pro style system is a "positive" for him, but less as a personal opinion and more as a reflection of what I've read about him in scouting reports as far as positive traits.

 

I agree with you that being in a "pro style" system in college is becoming less and less necessary for success in the NFL. Though I'd think being experienced at more complex progressions as well as adjusting plays/protections at the LOS would likely help a college guy progress quicker in the NFL than a guy who was doing none of that in college.

 

21 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

Agree completely. I watched tape on Mills a few weeks ago and he looks like a pro QB to me. Reminds me a lot of Daniel Jones in all honesty. Has nothing to do with the system he ran. His arm is much more solid than some on here give him credit for. The guy can make all of the throws. Problem is he hasnt played a whole lot due to injury. He is a project. But a nice piece of clay to mold non the less. 

 

I've noted this before as well...Daniel Jones is a comparison I see. But to me it's not really a positive thing. Daniel Jones was the quintessential "shrug" QB coming out. Decent at multiple things, great at none. Prone to making some lovely touch passes, as well as completely boneheaded plays, and he's basically the same guy as an NFL player. Though I suppose if you're taking a QB after round 1 you could do worse than a Daniel Jones. 

 

Personally I just don't get why the guy is rocketing up draft boards. He's started 11 games, and didn't put up crazy stats in those starts. He has a really smooth throwing motion but outside of that nothing really "wows" me when watching him. He doesn't seem to have any elite traits like most guys with very limited experience who are big risers (Lance, for example). But then again, I'm far from an expert and I've certainly been wrong on QBs before, so there's that.

Edited April 19, 2021 by mistertim

[clskinsfan]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I've noted that Mills playing in a pro style system is a "positive" for him, but less as a personal opinion and more as a reflection of what I've read about him in scouting reports as far as positive traits.

 

I agree with you that being in a "pro style" system in college is becoming less and less necessary for success in the NFL. Though I'd think being experienced at more complex progressions as well as adjusting plays/protections at the LOS would likely help a college guy progress quicker in the NFL than a guy who was doing none of that in college.

 

 

I've noted this before as well...Daniel Jones is a comparison I see. But to me it's not really a positive thing. Daniel Jones was the quintessential "shrug" QB coming out. Decent at multiple things, great at none. Prone to making some lovely touch passes, as well as completely boneheaded plays, and he's basically the same guy as an NFL player. Though I suppose if you're taking a QB after round 1 you could do worse than a Daniel Jones. 

 

Personally I just don't get why the guy is rocketing up draft boards. He's started 11 games, and didn't put up crazy stats in those starts. He has a really smooth throwing motion but outside of that nothing really "wows" me when watching him. He doesn't really have any elite traits like most guys with really limited experience who are big risers (Lance, for example). But then again, I'm far from an expert and I've certainly been wrong on QBs before, so there's that.

I get it. I am not using a 1st on Mills. But to get that arm to mold for a year or two in the middle of round 2 or higher? I would probably do that. His arm is pretty special. My main concern is if the guy can possibly stay healthy. Two blown out knees isnt a good start IMO. 

[clskinsfan]

Micah Parsons will either smash your teeth in or turn you over man. The guy is a ****ing stud. Put him next to Cole and watch him wreck offenses. Give me this man at 19 please:

 

 

 

 

Read and react?

 

Read and react?

 

 

Sideline to sideline?

 

 

 

Run defense?

 

us

 

Oh sweet baby Jesus:

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by clskinsfan

[Skinsinparadise]

Listened to Keim's podcast from tonight.  He interviewed Matt Bowen who did film review on some players.

 

Keim goes he knows the WFT has interest in Mills.  Then he had Bowen give his take on Mills

 

Bowen likes Mills' arm talent but doesn't see him as a finished product.  Not ready to start.  Like I've said, he highlights how he likes how he marries ball speeds to throws -- his touch.  Thinks he's a day 2 talent and not worth a first rounder.   His ceiling is a rythmn type pocket passer who throws well with anticipation.  He thinks as a pocket passer he has a high ceiling. 

 

He said he thinks Mills has better QB traits than Trask and should go higher in the draft than Trask.    Then talked about Trask

 

Sees Trask as a developmental #2 type of QB.  He doesn't see him as mobile but likes his pocket movement, can slide and reset.  He has to be a rythmn and defined thrower to succeed in the NFL.  You have to build a scheme around his skills.  He likes his ball placement with intermediate throws.

 

He thinks Mills, Trask, Mond would be the 2nd tier group of QBs in this draft with Mills being the best of the group.   He likes Mond's ability to throw on the move/boots.  He likes that you have a good sample size to judge Mond.  

 

Then he was asked about Jones, Fields, Lance.  Bowen thought the three were close but likes Fields the most.   Thinks Fields is strong and tough in the pocket.  Likes his deep ball accuracy.  Sees the field.  Good decision maker.  

 

[KDawg]

if you were to ask me which of the QBs I’d take out of Mond, Mills and Trask it’s Buechele.

 

I actually like Mills better than Mond or Trask. Mond is closer to pro ready and struggles with inconsistency. Trask’s ceiling isn’t that high imo (I hate saying this because if he turns into Tom Brady this post will live forever).

 

Mills is raw but has arm talent and pocket presence with some athleticism. For a developmental type QB... that’s what you want to have.

[Forehead]

KDawg, I'm not a football coach, just a fan who has watched a lot of pro and college football.  In other words, no idea what I'm talking about.

 

But it was touched on already.  I can't point to any one thing, but I'd love to see college QB's that can take a snap under center and drop back rather than operating in the shotgun or pistol the entire time.  That seems to be a dying breed in the college game.  I'd also like to see them use a huddle to call plays as someone else said, without relying on those stupid picture boards on the sideline.  I don't need to see a guy reading a horseshoe, an ear of corn, and Pepe the Frog and somehow interpreting that as an RPO screen.

 

Speaking of, I'd also like to see more QB's where the RPO/Screen pass isn't 1/3 or more of the entire offense.

 

Or option two...don't really sell the run at all, look for my 1st option, and if it isn't there, then just tuck and run because they have no ability to scan the field or progress to the next read.

 

Best I can do, there's just a difference between watching how pro QB's operate and watching college QB's operate.  I'm not expecting college QB's to be nearly as good by any means, but I'd like to see them display at least some of these skills.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Forehead

[clskinsfan]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

if you were to ask me which of the QBs I’d take out of Mond, Mills and Trask it’s Buechele.

 

I actually like Mills better than Mond or Trask. Mond is closer to pro ready and struggles with inconsistency. Trask’s ceiling isn’t that high imo (I hate saying this because if he turns into Tom Brady this post will live forever).

 

Mills is raw but has arm talent and pocket presence with some athleticism. For a developmental type QB... that’s what you want to have.

What do you think about Newman KDawg? He tantalizes me. I think he might have a higher upside than any of the other 2nd tier QB's. But I am not an offensive specialist either. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

What do you think about Newman KDawg? He tantalizes me. I think he might have a higher upside than any of the other 2nd tier QB's. But I am not an offensive specialist either. 

Has a lot of Haskins in his game based on the Senior Bowl. Now, it’s tough to judge him when he’s been out of football... but even going back and watching older film he has tendencies to play very similarly to the way Haskins did here... and it gives me creepy chills.

[Skinsinparadise]

Bowen also talked about the LBs.  He likes all 4, Parsons, Koramoah, Collins, Davis.

 

Parsons is his favorite of the bunch, thinks he can do it all.  He sees Collins at his best as a strong linebacker in a 4-3.  Jamin Davis as a weakside LB in a 4-3, keep him clean to go sideline to sidline.  Koramoah to cut the ball off at the edge, he likes him as a disruptive defender who goes after the QB.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[bowhunter]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Bowen also talked about the LBs.  He likes all 4, Parsons, Koramoah, Collins, Davis.

 

Parsons is his favorite of the bunch, thinks he can do it all.  He sees Collins at his best as a strong linebacker in a 4-3.  Jamin Davis as a weakside LB in a 4-3, keep him clean to go sideline to sidline.  Koramoah to cut the ball off at the edge, he likes him as a disruptive defender who goes after the QB.

I'd love Parsons here. What do you think are the chances he makes it to 19?

[dyst]

@clskinsfan I don’t think anyone would be upset with Parsons. His college tape is something fierce.