2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[mistertim]

32 minutes ago, The Rook said:

 

I'm not sure I would use the word "nonsensical".  It DID happen for Tampa.

 

With the craziness of the NFL, maybe a question to keep in the back of our mind is: "Would we want a 39 year old Aaron Rodgers in 2023?

Or maybe 2022?  Jordan Love is burning a hole in somebody's pocket while he is riding the bench in Green Bay.

 

I wouldn't use this possibility to not take a QB I really loved in this draft, but Coach did talk about getting the best team for the QB when they get him.

 

Heck, Wilson and Watson may be play again next year - no one really knows.

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook

 

 

 

Yeah, I mean...it's possible, I suppose. I just see it as highly unlikely. Brady was a complete anomaly, and always has been. He got signed to a huge FA contract at 43 years old. That's about 5 years after most other QBs would even get a FA contract. TB took a risk as well, as Brady's last couple of years in NE were decent but nothing spectacular so there was plenty of speculation that he was done physically.

 

So yes Brady and Peyton both got signed to huge deals at very old (for QBs) ages...but they're also two of the best to ever play the game, and they also both had question marks so the teams getting them were taking a risk. Could we maybe end up with a 40 year old FA Rodgers in 2024? Possibly. But who knows what the team will look like then as well. TB was in a perfect "win now" spot and the potentially perfect "win now" QB was available.

 

As far as Wilson or Watson, the only way those guys are going to be available is via trade. Neither is going to hit FA. If they decide they want out, their team will trade them. And both of them will likely cost three 1st round picks and more. Then the question is whether that price is worth it or not.

 

So  I till think the idea of "if you build it, he will come" and assuming a top FA QB will somehow just miraculously appear right when we finish building a great team is a bit on the fantastical side.

Edited April 18, 2021 by mistertim

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, JaxJoe said:

So glad you brought up Schwartz. Definitely needs to learn his routes. In fact, even for college-level, is a poor to moderate route runner but can and should be so much more than the track star he is be ause he shows willingness out there. He needs help in running after the catch, too. But what intrigues me about Schwartz is the fact we now have Fitzmagic who will send a throw to Schwartz who you know will have a couple of steps on the defender. If Alex Smith was still our QB... no way do I ever consider Schwartz. But drafting him in the fourth seems more plausible. 

 

I've mentioned him from time to time.

 

I am usually good at judging speed before seeing the actual 40 times.  In another life I used to run track and play soccer in HS.  I am no draft film expert to say the least but I have fun trying anyway.  But, if I had to say I have one minor skill from personal experience that I use from time to time it would be recognizing and digesting speed and also elusiveness from my very amatuer sports days. 

 

So I recall saying about Schwartz months back even before his 40 time came out, the dude is billed for his speed but they aren't joking.   This dude's ability to fly is special. 

 

Right now he's mostly about quick outs, go routes.  Short stuff and going long where he can utilize his speed.  Also backfield stuff like end-arounds.

 

Normally I'd shrug off drafting a dude primarily for their speed.  But with Schwartz i am not shrugging it off because 4.2 and change speed is out of this world.   He's not elusive but he's so fast that he can blow by guys anyway. 

 

I think an inventive offensive coordinator would find a way to use him.  It's a cliche to say any dude that's really fast but maybe appears raw belongs in KC but yeah I can see the fit there.

 

He can run after the catch IMO very well but he's not an elusive break tackle type if that's what you mean.   He averaged 9 YAC which is excellent. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Anselmheifer]

 

I wonder what it would cost to get Andre Cisco. His ACL was 9/26. 

Surely our 1st and 2nd round pick are important, but I feel like a couple of big hits in the later rounds could really make us. A 3rd round TE that is hugely productive. A 3rd round CB. A 4th Rd WR. 

 

Also, speaking of ACL's, I think Tylan Wallace. I think He is a plug and play #3 with Samuel and McLaurin. But, man. That ACL scares me more than a typical ACL. Did you guys know that Tylan has an identical twin brother that had to stop playing football because he tore his ACL 3 times in the same knee? There HAS to be something anatomically/functionally about those guys that makes them prone to that injury. I could see Tylan dropping further than he otherwise would. To me, he is a money selection in the 4th. 

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/back-2-campus/oh-brother-injuries-force-wallace-twins-to-go-separate-ways

Edited April 18, 2021 by Anselmheifer

[JaxJoe]

26 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

He can run after the catch IMO very well but he's not an elusive break tackle type if that's what you mean.   He averaged 9 YAC which is excellent. 

Yeah. If he’s catching a 7-10 yard out, for example, and there’s a few defenders in the area, they usually can tackle him handedly.  So his lateral quickness and his ability to find open field after the catch needs improvement. In facr, it’s the same drills that’ll make his curl and button routes better. He needs work, but the good kind of work. I like him. I like his attitude. He plays hard for a sprinter-type. I am baffled why the mocks have him 5th - 6th round. I’d be tickled to get him in the 4th and wouldn’t lose it if we snagged him with our 2nd 3rd round pick. 

[RWJ]

8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah and this is one of my issues with Mills. It's also something JT O'Sullivan pointed out and showed examples of. At times he just seems to not see what's going on or be able to diagnose it well and makes very dumb throws. That or it will be a huge miss where he'll have a guy wide open (wide open by college standards even) and not hit him. 

 

It certainly could be a result of having limited starts, but with that kind of on and off play as well as such limited experience I can't see taking him in the 2nd.

 

IMO there's nothing really elite about him that should push him way up draft boards, as is usually the case for very inexperienced QBs who still get picked relatively high. He's decent at a lot of stuff but nothing really "wows". Good but not great arm, good but not great athleticism, smooth but sometimes inconsistent mechanics, makes some really nice throws but then makes almost as many boneheaded ones, put up good but not great numbers.

 

His main selling points now are mostly based on the fact that he was a 5 star recruit coming out of high school and he plays in a pro style system. There's really not all that much else there at the moment.

Scouts and GMs see something in Mills.  If you watch his tape his play is smooth but also erratic at times.  Lack of play has something to do with it and you pointed out he played in a Pro Style system.  We'll see where he's picked.  I think 2nd round via the hype that's coming out about him.  

5 hours ago, Number 44 said:

I'm not in favor of drafting a Monds/Mills/Trask type QB in round 2.  That would be a big mistake, IMO.  There will be good probable starters at T, LB, TE, DB, and WR available there.  Why take a guy that fits right in with the solid back-up QBs we already have?  If we draft a QB, it should either be in round 1, if one of the top guys becomes available to us, or on day 3.  We can do a lot on day 2 to improve the team.  A project tier 2 or 3 QB isn't it, IMO.

Correct, not in Round 2 but Round 3 and beyond I can see it.  I think your first 2 picks should be starters or contribute and play a lot their first year.

Edited April 18, 2021 by RWJ

[RWJ]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Well, you have Mills being reported by Keim, Standig and Pauline and the WFT having heavy interest in him.  Teams could jump us for him but man again 2nd round seems to high but like I told another poster it the Scouts and GMs that see what they see in him and then of course RR makes the decision.  

[mistertim]

I'd certainly take Mills over Trask, but I still see the 2nd round as too high for a dude with 11 starts and major consistency issues.

 

As far as who WFT is linked to...I listen to the various reporters but also take it all with a grain of salt. RR and crew are generally more tight lipped than the past regimes so I have some doubts that there are really a bunch of leaks from the team about who they're targeting.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, JaxJoe said:

Yeah. If he’s catching a 7-10 yard out, for example, and there’s a few defenders in the area, they usually can tackle him handedly.  So his lateral quickness and his ability to find open field after the catch needs improvement. In facr, it’s the same drills that’ll make his curl and button routes better. He needs work, but the good kind of work. I like him. I like his attitude. He plays hard for a sprinter-type. I am baffled why the mocks have him 5th - 6th round. I’d be tickled to get him in the 4th and wouldn’t lose it if we snagged him with our 2nd 3rd round pick. 

 

Kiper has him in the mid second so not all mocks have him in the 5th-6th.   To me I can see him in the early 4th, I also wouldn't lose it if they took him in the late 3rd. 

 

 He's more a straightline speed guy like Curtis Samuel.  But as sick as Samuel's speed is, Schwartz is faster.  He's Darrell Green level legendary type speed.   He has his big moments as for creating YAC even though he's not super elusive or hot at breaking tackles -- the thing is he just runs right by guys.  You got some corners and safeties who can run in the mid to high 4.3's.  But they aren't his level fast.  He can run past everyone.   He set a world youth record in 2018 for 100 meters. 

 

Over the years, I've done a lot of work in the city he's from, I know that area well.  Ditto the school he went to.  I've read my share and watched some interviews about him.  Seems like a good kid.

 

If you have 15 minutes to burn, the Road to the Pros below about Schwartz gives a window into his background.  I found it interesting. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Chump Bailey]

23 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I'd certainly take Mills over Trask, but I still see the 2nd round as too high for a dude with 11 starts and major consistency issues.

 

As far as who WFT is linked to...I listen to the various reporters but also take it all with a grain of salt. RR and crew are generally more tight lipped than the past regimes so I have some doubts that there are really a bunch of leaks from the team about who they're targeting.

 

I think Mills is going in the 2nd because of positional value but yeah that's pricey for a guy not even close to being ready to see the field (IMO). I like Mill's release more than anything but he certainly has limitations like the rest of that group.

[Going Commando]

Seth Williams reminds me a little bit of AJ Brown.  Big alpha bully receiver who was a well known college star that got schemed against, and who was used as a measuring stick for any young DB that matched up on him.  But every week I tuned in, felt like he was constantly getting hit and grabbed to hell and getting the worst of physical exchanges.  Something about that kid must be so irritating that he inspires defenses to kill him.

 

I kind of like him though.  I'm wondering if he couldn't be another Darius Slayton situation where he ends up being a far better NFL player than he was at Auburn.  He's got some circus catches on his resume that suggest star-quality, which is what I think his hype was based on.

 

I'm with you on Schwartz's speed SIP.  It's unreal, and it's definitely tops in the class among the guys over 6'.  He's Will Fuller without skills.  I think he, Tutu, Eskridge, and Rondale are the fastest offensive players in the class and the four guys with truly elite speed.  The four who could beat Curtis Samuel in a footrace.  I'm hoping we get one of them so that we can get some of that KC track meet offense going.  Rondale is my favorite, and I think we can get him at 51.

 

Changing gears, I think Shaun Wade is worth a strong look in the third or fourth round.  He, along with a couple other guys like Amon Ra St. Brown and Dylan Moses are on my boom-bust team because I think they were hurt by choosing not to opt out and then having disappointing seasons.  They didn't look like the same guys from 2018/2019.  But there were still flashes of the old Wade this year.  He was playing through an abdominal injury and got a second injury of some sort during the year, I think it was a turf toe but I'm not sure.  Looked like he was out of sync and really battling and he looked disinterested.  Got his ass handed to him by the Alabama guys and Cornell Powell and Dotson and Fryfogle.  But he's 6'2 and fast and ridiculously physical.  When he's locked in and healthy, he's a dominant slot/overhang defender.  Good option for man and playing underneath zones in the 4-2.  He can single cover tight ends and really strap them up, and he can come down and offer elite run support in the alleys against the Saquon Barkleys of the NFL that like to run from shotgun spread.

 

His range of outcomes are huge.  He's either never going to really get healthy and meekly fall out of the NFL in a short time, or he's going to be the next Desmond King.  If we make some safe picks early on, I wouldn't mind going after him to see if he can be reclaimed.

[Skinsinparadise]

29 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I'd certainly take Mills over Trask, but I still see the 2nd round as too high for a dude with 11 starts and major consistency issues.

 

As far as who WFT is linked to...I listen to the various reporters but also take it all with a grain of salt. RR and crew are generally more tight lipped than the past regimes so I have some doubts that there are really a bunch of leaks from the team about who they're targeting.

 

I trust Keim as for those leaks.  He nailed it some last year including a Antonio Gibson mention right before the previous draft.    He nailed just about everyone of their WR targets before FA and their position targets too.

 

Having said that I trust Keim's info closer to the draft.  It's not so much that he's wrong earlier and then all of a sudden nails it but its that the FO is still working on their plans, I am sure they evolve.  As it gets closer it's more likely to be on the money for that reason.

 

I'll give an example as for Keim.  I noticed no Fitzpatrick mentions earlier on during the off season but then I noticed Fitz finally appeared in article right before FA. 

 

I've seen the same in the past from him, any article popping up days before the draft I'll take ultra seriously.  but as Keim himself has said because they are pikcing at 19 they have to play with multiple contingencies where they don't so much control their fate.  So they might like this player or that player but it doesn't mean they land them. 

 

I recall all the buzz that the FO loved Ryan Kelly years ago.  And they were surprised he was taken so they shifted to Doctson but Doctson wasn't their Plan A.   Supposedly in that same draft in the 2nd they targeted J. Reed but he was taken before their pick so they took Cravens.  I heard somewhere that Jay loved Dalvin Cook but he went before their pick in the 2nd so they took Ryan Anderson.  lol, the backup plans in those cases weren't so hot. 

 

Keim doesn't know all.  But usually when he shares stuff like this is generally what they are thinking, it proves on the money most of the time.  And when Keim name drops players close to the draft or FA there is often a reason for it that often comes into play. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Chump Bailey]

Seth Williams is definitely a riser but Jaycee Horn absolutely shut him down when they played. It was a clinic from Horn that game.

[RWJ]

Still we need to fill our Left OT with Alejandro Villanueva on a 1 or 2 year deal.  Kind of ignorant that we wait until after the draft when someone else can swoop in and sign him.  IF you go through the mock draft simulators all the Tier 1 LTs are gone in the 1st round and little left over when we pick in the 2nd.

Edited April 18, 2021 by RWJ

[Going Commando]

Also wanted to say that the perception of this IDL class took a big hit when three of the biggest talents going into the year all opted out: Shelvin, Twyman, and Tufele.

 

Tufele has a little bit of Ndamukong Suh in him, and all that entails.  Twyman has some Ed Oliver.  And Shelvin is just a friggin hulk like Vita Vea.  During the 2019 season, it looked an awful lot like Shelvin was going to be the best player on that LSU defense in 2020. 

 

Add to that with Marvin Wilson having a disappointing year, and I think there is a huge amount of value in the IDL class in that third to fifth round range.  If we're serious about trading up for a QB, then we need to be floating some of our IDLs in trade packages, and I would look to one of those four guys to recoup my depth after making that kind of trade.

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I trust Keim as for those leaks.  He nailed it some last year including a Antonio Gibson mention right before the previous draft.    He nailed just about everyone of their WR targets before FA and their position targets too.

 

Having said that I trust Keim's info closer to the draft.  It's not so much that he's wrong earlier and then all of a sudden nails it but its that the FO is still working on their plans, I am sure they evolve.  As it gets closer it's more likely to be on the money for that reason.

 

I'll give an example as for Keim.  I noticed no Fitzpatrick mentions earlier on during the off season but then I noticed Fitz finally appeared in article right before FA. 

 

I've seen the same in the past from him, any article popping up days before the draft I'll take ultra seriously.  but as Keim himself has said because they are pikcing at 19 they have to play with multiple contingencies where they don't so much control their fate.  So they might like this player or that player but it doesn't mean they land them. 

 

I recall all the buzz that the FO loved Ryan Kelly years ago.  And they were surprised he was taken so they shifted to Doctson but Doctson wasn't their Plan A.   Supposedly in that same draft in the 2nd they targeted J. Reed but he was taken before their pick so they took Cravens.  I heard somewhere that Jay loved Dalvin Cook but he went before their pick in the 2nd so they took Ryan Anderson.  lol, the backup plans in those cases weren't so hot. 

 

Keim doesn't know all.  But usually when he shares stuff like this is generally what they are thinking, it proves on the money most of the time.  And when Keim names drops players close to the draft or FA there is often a reason for it that often comes into play. 

Especially since he went from Trask to Mills in the 2nd round with one of his latest tweets.  As I posted, Standig, Pauline and now Keim are pin pointing Mills in the 2nd round.

[Koolblue13]

Amari Rogers is the WR I'd like to grab on day 3.

 

Horne is the only DB I'm sold on at 19.

 

Trask with our second 3rd rounder is about the only QB option I'm interested in.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Seth Williams reminds me a little bit of AJ Brown.  Big alpha bully receiver who was a well known college star that got schemed against, and who was used as a measuring stick for any young DB that matched up on him.  But every week I tuned in, felt like he was constantly getting hit and grabbed to hell and getting the worst of physical exchanges.  Something about that kid must be so irritating that he inspires defenses to kill him.

 

 

Agree on Seth.  Bo Nix was atrocious.  Imagine if Seth played for a good QB?   Same thing for Anthony Schwartz. Schwartz isn't a refined receiver to say the least but still he got open deep and Nix too many times missed him.

 

Seth has that rare combination of size and speed.    Among the talked about/draftable receivers, he has the biggest wingspan.   He just turned 21.   He needs to improve his concentration to avoid drops but clearly he is capable of doing it considering some of the sick catches he's made.   Big time catch radius.  As for big dudes with big catch radius he's in that same flavor of Terace Marshall and Nico Collins. 

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Amari Rogers is the WR I'd like to grab on day 3.

 

Horne is the only DB I'm sold on at 19.

 

Trask with our second 3rd rounder is about the only QB option I'm interested in.

 

I like Amari Rodgers, feisty YAC guy.   I'd be surprised if he's there on the third day at our pick.  I think he goes in the third.   I am guessing though they might opt more for an outside receiver type who is on the bigger side or if they double down on a slot receiver go for a dude with speed.  But who knows?  

 

I am not with you on Trask but I won't be smashing my TV if they took him there, I'd live with it. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Horn is a better player than Seth Williams.  But we also aren't talking about Seth in the first round like we would with Horn.  Seth I'd guess is going in the 4th-5th.  

 

Good sign that they wanted to put Horn on Seth and shadow him. 

 

 

[KDawg]

So... I’m bored and wanting some quality convo...

 

I keep seeing “pro style system” being thrown around in here. What exactly do you all consider a pro style system to be?

[Skinsinparadise]

On another note I watched Josh Palmer versus Alabama and Georgia but not the one against South Carolina.  I just looked up his stats in that game:  85 yards, 6 catches, 14 plus YPC.  I'd presume some of that was against Horn.  If so, he has been impressive against some of the better corners in this draft.  

 

Late 3rd-5th round could be really good for WR.  I like the depth in the last draft at Wr but this draft is better on that front IMO, more high level potential talent in the mid rounds. 

 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Amari just strikes me as another Terr Mac type who just does it all pretty well and I'm very high on pedigree. 

 

I'd be upset with a move up or second day QB pick, especially early. Trask in the wings would be good. He's done everything that's ever been asked and always seems to improve. 

 

I don't think this is the only year Fitz will be on the team and Heinicke isn't drop off really, so our QB room looks pretty good and Trask in a year or three could be perfect. Kind of like Love for the Packers and Rodgers before him. We have the potential for a decent pipeline right now to build a team and groom a QB.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Amari just strikes me as another Terr Mac type who just does it all pretty well and I'm very high on pedigree. 

 

I'd be upset with a move up or second day QB pick, especially early. Trask in the wings would be good. He's done everything that's ever been asked and always seems to improve. 

 

I don't think this is the only year Fitz will be on the team and Heinicke isn't drop off really, so our QB room looks pretty good and Trask in a year or three could be perfect. Kind of like Love for the Packers and Rodgers before him. We have the potential for a decent pipeline right now to build a team and groom a QB.

Rodgers is my top receiver not named Waddle, Smith or Chase. I think he’s going to be special. 
 

I don’t like Trask for this team but if he’s had late in the 3rd/4th... why not see what happens.

[mistertim]

11 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So... I’m bored and wanting some quality convo...

 

I keep seeing “pro style system” being thrown around in here. What exactly do you all consider a pro style system to be?

 

Good question, and probably not one I'm the best to answer from a technical perspective. But my personal take on it isn't so much whether or not an offense uses "traditional" pro set formations, as plenty of NFL teams nowadays are using variations of spread, air raid, and RPO (though some college teams, like Stanford, still do utilize many more "pro sets" than most other college offenses, from what I can tell).

 

To me it's more about the types of route packages and run packages a team utilizes and how much complexity seems to go into it, as well as the complexity that the QB's reads seem to have (I say seems since I obviously don't know the play being called and why).

 

Does it appear to be one read? A half field read? High-low? Full field progression? Is the QB able to change plays and protections at the LOS? 

 

Some of this sounds a bit relative I guess. But that's just how I generally think of it when watching.

 

Again, my super novice view.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

Good question, and probably not one I'm the best to answer from a technical perspective. But my personal take on it isn't so much whether or not an offense uses "traditional" pro set formations, as plenty of NFL teams nowadays are using variations of spread, air raid, and RPO (though some college teams, like Stanford, still do utilize many more "pro sets" than most other college offenses, from what I can tell).

 

To me it's more about the types of route packages and run packages a team utilizes and how much complexity seems to go into it, as well as the complexity that the QB's reads seem to have (I say seems since I obviously don't know the play being called and why).

 

Does it appear to be one read? A half field read? High-low? Full field progression? Is the QB able to change plays and protections at the LOS? 

 

Some of this sounds a bit relative I guess. But that's just how I generally think of it when watching.

 

Again, my super novice view.

 

Wouldn't say that's novice. That's actually pretty much the answer.

 

People always use Stanford as an example of a pro style offense going back to the Luck days. Back then, it was a bit more accurate in statement. They were under center and played "pro" formations and concepts. "Pro" being a term used because some colleges had gone "crazy" and ran spread pass heavy attacks that allowed Timmy Chang and Hawaii to be one of the most prolific offenses of that era. 

 

Full field progression "systems" don't really exist. I mean, I guess they do. But most of the time (I say most but it should be all, but giving wiggle room for the strange outliers) a team runs a "full field read system" because they have a quarterback that is well studied and ready to read a full field. Teams that have less than full field (3/4, half, single read) often only do so because their QB room dictates that they have to have less flavor in their concepts. Sometimes the limiting factor isn't QB, but rather receiver. And sometimes its the fact that they are unable to protect long enough to get it off. But more times than not, if a team has a QB who is capable of reading an entire field they will employ that as part of their strategic advantage in their game planning. 

 

In today's college game, most teams are running "pro" style offensive systems in the sense that the pros and colleges play similarly. Spread concepts are prevalent. Hell, you can bet Darrell Bevell winds up running "college style" offensive plays in Jacksonville this year in order to compliment Lawrence's strengths. 

 

Here's my question for those that use the terminology in reference to Stanford QBs but not others: What does Stanford do in their offense that North Dakota State doesn't? Or Ohio State? Or Clemson? Or Bama? Or even BYU? Why are people still labeling Stanford as a "pro style" system?

[The Rook]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

So  I till think the idea of "if you build it, he will come" and assuming a top FA QB will somehow just miraculously appear right when we finish building a great team is a bit on the fantastical side.

 

I agree that it is on the fantasy side, but not nonsensical.  I'm sure, three years ago, Tamps Bay fans would have thought winning the Super Bowl with Brady would be a fantasy. (and the same with Denver fans). 

 

There does seems to be a "perfect storm" brewing in Green Bay with Aaron Rodgers that adds to this fantasy, especially since GB didn't free up cap room by turning money owed Aaron into signing bonus.  Of course, this all should probably be in another Thread and Rodgers may be full-timing Jeopardy in two years. 

 

Here is the quote from Coach that added fuel to the fire: (I know the subject is about drafting a QB.)

 

"I’ve seen a lot of teams that have had things in place then drafted their quarterback next year. This could be one of those situations where we put all the other pieces in place and then a year or two from now the right guy is there and we can make that move," Rivera said. 

 

And my god, this team is due for some luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Rook