2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I really don't think we have the capital to move up to #2. Just don't see it. I could see us moving up to #10-12 range if one of the 4 guys falls, but not Top 3.

 

Problem is, #8, 9, and 12 are all potential QB suitors. #10 and #11 are Dallas and the Giants. Would they trade with us knowing we would be getting our franchise QB? Doubtful.

 

But let's just say Denver is set on taking Lock but wants to add draft capital. To get to #9 from #19 would (per trade chart) cost us #19 and #51. We could get away with #19 and our two 3rd rounders too. Both would put us close to the value needed to get there, and might need to throw in a later pick or a 2022.

 

But if Trey Lance is sliding and we can get up to that range and get him, I would much rather do that and sacrifice a pick or two this year, rather than mortgage the future 1sts and move all the way up to #2 or #3.

 

To me, Fields, Lance and Wilson all have similar upside and franchise QB potential and each has their flaws. We aren't getting Lawrence, so to me there's no difference in going to #2 or #9.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

I think of those, Newman might have the best shot to elevate themsleves after a good Senior Bowl.  Though I admit I am biased about him because I like his tools better than the other ones there. 

[JamesMadisonSkins]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I think of those, Newman might have the best shot to elevate themsleves after a good Senior Bowl.  Though I admit I am biased about him because I like his tools better than the other ones there. 

 

I don't know who is or isn't eligible but someone I follow on twitter who is an analyst said Mac Jones benefited the most by attending the Sr. Bowl. Isn't he a true-Jr? Anyway, whether eligible or not, I would have liked to see him attend.

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I think of those, Newman might have the best shot to elevate themsleves after a good Senior Bowl.  Though I admit I am biased about him because I like his tools better than the other ones there. 

 

Every single one of these guys are QBs I'd like to see more of. 

[Chris 44]

44 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Hot take: I am doing my receiver watch. I started with Bateman and Chase.

 

I'm not sold that Chase is better than Bateman, let alone DeVanta. I'm not trying to take anything away from JaMarr. He is a deep threat, take the top off guy. He is also a killer slant and cross runner and if he catches the ball in space he's gone. But his route tree isn't all that diversified. He ran a lot of slants, ins, crossers and fades. Sure, he did some other stuff... But the vast majority of his production seemed to come from fade balls and in breaking routes. He also isn't all that precise on his breaks. He's going to get separation from people even in the NFL. He's very talented... But I am not sure he's as good as we (read: me) thought he was.

 

Gotta go through everyone and then watch him again. I just am not as wowed by him as I once was after watching a few of these other receivers...

How much of the route tree is due to the system and routes given for him to run as opposed to him not running those particular routes? Can this be taught if a WR has the basic skill set of speed/separation, good hands, etc.?  Wondering if those things all are taken into account by the scouts and if there is a semi definitive line drawn. 

[Ball Security]

Justyn Ross is returning to school.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

1 minute ago, Ball Security said:

Justyn Ross is returning to school.

 

Damn. Smart of him. He has a chance of being the WR1 next year, whereas he was probably going to fall to R2 or later at best this year with his concerns.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Every single one of these guys are QBs I'd like to see more of. 

 

Me too but I admit i am cynical on:  Franks and Trask.  I am borderline cynical on Mond because of he's so up and down.  I didn't love what I'be watched from Ehlinger but I am intrigued by his intangibles.  

 

I am most open minded on Newman followed by Book. 

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

How much of the route tree is due to the system and routes given for him to run as opposed to him not running those particular routes? Can this be taught if a WR has the basic skill set of speed/separation, good hands, etc.?  Wondering if those things all are taken into account by the scouts and if there is a semi definitive line drawn. 

 

From our perspective, without inside knowledge, it's literally impossible to answer this. Chase is extremely "traity". He has every physical trait you want to see in a receiver. In fact, he may be the overall most prototypical receiver in the draft class as far as size, speed and athleticism total packages go.

 

As a coach I wouldn't want to limit a guy's ability by only allowing him to run certain routes on a regular basis simply because he is faster than everyone else. It allows defense's to key in on the guy if the defense is competent and slow them down a bit and is very limiting for the player from a development perspective. And even in big time college sports the goal should be developing them from day 1 until their last day on campus. 

 

So I would think that it was more of a "him" limitation. But: Coaches do things to help them retain jobs. And its real easy to call "JaMarr deep for six" every other play and profit. A National Title, a big time promotion to the NFL... It helped his stock and it produced the number one overall pick as a QB.

 

So... who knows? I'm like 10 receivers in and he's still my #2. It's hard to deny his raw ability. But the route tree is a concern I would have in evaluation if I were scouting for a team and I'd be asking a lot of questions. 

 

Rondale Moore is another one that I think we overrated here. He runs a very small route tree and he is real small size wise. He's much shorter than DeVanta and about the same weight. He is dynamic, but in watching him I'm not as high on him as I once was.

 

I don't want all of this to sound negative on these guys. They are talented. Just not what *I* originally believed them to be... Which is a me problem vs. a them problem. 

[Going Commando]

I've run it twice and got two mock classes on TDN of:

15 - Slater

51 - Rondale Moore

76 - Spencer Brown

82 - Paris Ford

120 - Rashad Weaver

159 - Tutu Atwell

 

I think day 2 maneuvering would be beneficial.  My aim would be to trade back in the third round unless someone really good and unexpected were sitting there at 76.  My goal would be to trade down to get two picks in the 90-110 range while still keeping that 120 pick.  Cleveland and Dallas both have multiple picks in those ranges right now.

[mhd24]

4 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I've run it twice and got two mock classes on TDN of:

15 - Slater

51 - Rondale Moore

76 - Spencer Brown

82 - Paris Ford

120 - Rashad Weaver

159 - Tutu Atwell

 

I think day 2 maneuvering would be beneficial.  My aim would be to trade back in the third round unless someone really good and unexpected were sitting there at 76.  My goal would be to trade down to get two picks in the 90-110 range while still keeping that 120 pick.  Cleveland and Dallas both have multiple picks in those ranges right now.

How did you get 15?

 

I don't see Slater slipping to 19.  In terms of teams looking at o-line ahead of us, I can see:

 

1). Bengals 

2). Carolina

3). Dallas (especially if Smith retires)

4). SF (especially if Trent leaves)

5). Minnesota (Rief is basically done)

6). AZ (Need better guards to hold up in pass pro for the shorter Murray).

 

Sure, Sewell probably goes ahead of Slater, but I think he's not going to be there at 19.  Ditto Darrisow IMO.

[Redskins Reparations]

10 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I've run it twice and got two mock classes on TDN of:

15 - Slater

51 - Rondale Moore

76 - Spencer Brown

82 - Paris Ford

120 - Rashad Weaver

159 - Tutu Atwell

 

I think day 2 maneuvering would be beneficial.  My aim would be to trade back in the third round unless someone really good and unexpected were sitting there at 76.  My goal would be to trade down to get two picks in the 90-110 range while still keeping that 120 pick.  Cleveland and Dallas both have multiple picks in those ranges right now.

Love that Paris Ford pick! Unfortunately, I don’t think he will be available that late.

I have been using First-Pick for a draft simulator.  Does anyone else recommend a different site that is more realistic?

[Going Commando]

Eliminate DeVonta Smith and JaMarr Chase from consideration at 19 and Rondale Moore at 52 is the only WR pick for us in the first two rounds where I like the value.

 

I would rather wait until the mid-late rounds to draft Tutu, Fryfogle, Tylan Wallace, Marlon Williams, or Tyler Vaughns (or more than one of them) than pick any other WR in the first two rounds, including Waddle, Bateman, or Marshall at 19, or Toney/Olave/St. Brown at 52.

 

Rondale Moore at 52 is the only scenario where the value blows me away enough to abandon the quality of depth in the class and pick a WR early.  We are definitely better off picking Slater, Darrisaw, Najee, or Zaven at 19 than a WR.  And there will probably be good enough CBs or OLs at 52 to make more sense to draft that position than WR unless a game-breaker like Rondale is still around.

[mhd24]

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Eliminate DeVonta Smith and JaMarr Chase from consideration at 19 and Rondale Moore at 52 is the only WR pick for us in the first two rounds where I like the value.

 

I would rather wait until the mid-late rounds to draft Tutu, Fryfogle, Tylan Wallace, Marlon Williams, or Tyler Vaughns (or more than one of them) than pick any other WR in the first two rounds, including Waddle, Bateman, or Marshall at 19, or Toney/Olave/St. Brown at 52.

 

Rondale Moore at 52 is the only scenario where the value blows me away enough to abandon the quality of depth in the class and pick a WR early.  We are definitely better off picking Slater, Darrisaw, Najee, or Zaven at 19 than a WR.  And there will probably be good enough CBs or OLs at 52 to make more sense to draft that position than WR unless a game-breaker like Rondale is still around.

 

 

What about Pitts (if he somehow miraculously falls to 19)?  I'd take him over Najee just for the value.  

[Going Commando]

8 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

How did you get 15?

 

I don't see Slater slipping to 19.  In terms of teams looking at o-line ahead of us, I can see:

 

Oops, Slater was ranked 15th on their board, but I got him at 19.  I read it wrong.

 

I think Slater at 19 is on the table because I think he's going to measure a 603X at the combine and have arm length in the 32-33 area.  That's going to spook teams who are drafting early.  And I think the top of the edge class is going to move in front of Darrisaw and Slater after they measure and do the drills because of how physically gifted they are.

 

I also think Dallas and Minny probably go defense and that SF and Carolina are going to be in the quarterback market.  In the mocks where Slater wasn't available at 19, it was usually New England who drafted him.

4 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

 

What about Pitts (if he somehow miraculously falls to 19)?  I'd take him over Najee just for the value.  

 

I don't think he will, but I would definitely draft him at 19.  I put him in the same tier as DeVonta Smith and Jamarr Chase.  That's a BPA pick over Darrisaw and Slater and Collins, arguably over Najee as well.  You're getting a Darren Waller/Travis Kelce type of upside from that choice.

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Eliminate DeVonta Smith and JaMarr Chase from consideration at 19 and Rondale Moore at 52 is the only WR pick for us in the first two rounds where I like the value.

 

I would rather wait until the mid-late rounds to draft Tutu, Fryfogle, Tylan Wallace, Marlon Williams, or Tyler Vaughns (or more than one of them) than pick any other WR in the first two rounds, including Waddle, Bateman, or Marshall at 19, or Toney/Olave/St. Brown at 52.

 

Rondale Moore at 52 is the only scenario where the value blows me away enough to abandon the quality of depth in the class and pick a WR early.  We are definitely better off picking Slater, Darrisaw, Najee, or Zaven at 19 than a WR.  And there will probably be good enough CBs or OLs at 52 to make more sense to draft that position than WR unless a game-breaker like Rondale is still around.

 

I am not high on Rondale Moore. He doesn't have a wide route tree and he is ridiculously small and doesn't "play bigger" than his size. He is a slot threat with YAC and can operate as a jet type of guy to add a wrinkle to the running game and can be an extension of the run through the pass. I'm not sure about his value at 52 at this point but I think that feels a touch high right now. But it may not be. I'll have to think about that more as I watch everyone I need to watch. 

[KDawg]

Got a bunch more to do... But so far:

 

WR		College	Ht/Wt
1	DeVonta Smith	Alabama	6-1, 175
2	JaMarr Chase*	LSU	6-1, 200
3	Jaylen Waddle*	Alabama	5-10, 182
4	Chris Olave*	Ohio State	6-1, 185
5	Rashod Bateman	Minnesota	6-2, 210
6	Seth Williams*	Auburn	6-3, 224
7	Kadarius Toney	Florida	5-11, 190
8	Amon-Ra St. Brown*	USC	6-1, 195
9	Dyami Brown*	UNC	6-1, 195
10	Rondale Moore	Purdue	5-9, 180
11	Marquez Stevenson	Houston	6-0, 190
12	Tylan Wallace	Ok. State	6-0, 185
13	Sage Surratt*	Wake	6-3, 215
14	Tamorrion Terry	FSU	6-4, 230
15	Tre Walker	San Jose St	5-11, 180
16	Damonte Coxie*	Memphis	6-3, 197

 

 

I'll post the writeups when I finish. 

 

Here's who I have left (and I have to add some guys, too:

 

Anthony Schwartz*	Auburn	6-1, 179
Trevon Grimes	Florida	6-5, 214
Tutu Atwell*	Louisville	5-9, 153
Randall St. Felix*	USF	6-2, 211
Tarik Black	Texas*	6-3, 206
Terrace Marshall	LSU	6-3, 200
Marlon Williams	UCF	6-0, 215
Dazz Newsome	UNC	6-3, 197
Tyler Vaughns	USC	6-2, 190
Ihmir Smith-Marsette	Iowa	6-2, 175
Jaquarii Roberson	Wake	6-1, 182
Reggie Roberson	SMU	6-0, 200
Amari Rodgers	Clemson	5-9, 210
Elijah Moore	Ole Miss	5-9, 185
Nico Collins	Michigan	6-4, 222

[Going Commando]

28 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I am not high on Rondale Moore. He doesn't have a wide route tree and he is ridiculously small and doesn't "play bigger" than his size. He is a slot threat with YAC and can operate as a jet type of guy to add a wrinkle to the running game and can be an extension of the run through the pass. I'm not sure about his value at 52 at this point but I think that feels a touch high right now. But it may not be. I'll have to think about that more as I watch everyone I need to watch. 

 

It's true that he is small and doesn't run a big route tree, but I disagree that he doesn't play bigger than his size.  He goes to the elusive toolbox to get separation and make guys miss more than the power toolbox, but he'll absorb contact and stay on balance and rip through grabby DBs in the contact window.  He's got very strong legs.

 

Moore is an elite slot and jet weapon and the value of that shouldn't be undersold.  He's probably got even more short-area quickness than Jaylen Waddle, he is a true jitterbug player.  And he is more of a workhorse who has strong hands and can handle an extremely high volume of targets and carries.  I think he's a great fit in our system because of the elite YAC ability and I could see him developing his downfield game over time and follow a similar progression path to DJ Moore and Tyler Lockett.  But the main thing I like about him is just the raw speed.  There is a chance he runs low 4.3s.  In this horizontal passing game, you're looking at a chain mover who could get you 100+ catches and provide the middle of the field and underneath zone compliment to McLaurin, plus give you some deep threat potential.  I like him at 52 because I don't think there is actually a big difference in quality between him and Waddle.

[KDawg]

37 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

It's true that he is small and doesn't run a big route tree, but I disagree that he doesn't play bigger than his size.  He goes to the elusive toolbox to get separation and make guys miss more than the power toolbox, but he'll absorb contact and stay on balance and rip through grabby DBs in the contact window.  He's got very strong legs.

 

Moore is an elite slot and jet weapon and the value of that shouldn't be undersold.  He's probably got even more short-area quickness than Jaylen Waddle, he is a true jitterbug player.  And he is more of a workhorse who has strong hands and can handle an extremely high volume of targets and carries.  I think he's a great fit in our system because of the elite YAC ability and I could see him developing his downfield game over time and follow a similar progression path to DJ Moore and Tyler Lockett.  But the main thing I like about him is just the raw speed.  There is a chance he runs low 4.3s.  In this horizontal passing game, you're looking at a chain mover who could get you 100+ catches and provide the middle of the field and underneath zone compliment to McLaurin, plus give you some deep threat potential.  I like him at 52 because I don't think there is actually a big difference in quality between him and Waddle.

I don’t even think it’s close between he and Waddle. Waddle is far superior in nearly every way in my opinion. Toney is also superior in my eyes.

 

Moore does have active and strong legs, I agree with that. But I don’t see anything elite about him to be honest.

 

EDIT: I should say I don’t see him as an elite slot. He has remarkable athleticism which could be elite

[PlayAction]

2 hours ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Just don't see it. I could see us moving up to #10-12 range if one of the 4 guys falls, but not Top 3.

But if Trey Lance is sliding and we can get up to that range and get him, I would much rather do that and sacrifice a pick or two this year, rather than mortgage the future 1sts and move all the way up to #2 or #3.

 

I don't see the point in drafting a QB as the starter unless the team has all the pieces in place to help him be successful.  The team needs to add at least one other proven productive WR, a TE, and improve pass protection (LT?).  A better running game would also be a plus.  I would pass on a rookie with only one year experience until the 3rd or later rounds as he's going to have to sit for a couple of years to develop anyway.      

[The Consigliere]

On 1/11/2021 at 7:58 PM, KDawg said:

Meaning last year’s tape? I mean yeah he’s better but he was really good last year, too. He and Etienne were still the top 2 guys. Now he’s the clear one.

So odd to me. As great as he is, he's 1.5-2 years older than the bulk of the '20 RB class. In a league that refuses to give RB second contracts because they'll be 25/26 when they start that deal, why on earth would anyone waste a blue chip/1st round pick on a guy that turns 23 in March? You've already said goodbye to what should've been 2 years of his prime thanks to him sticking around at Alabama until he was an overage prospect. It's flat out lunacy to me. I get that he's a marvelous talent, but Cam Akers is playing this sunday at age 21, Harris turns 23 in March. Just crazy to me. 

 

I get he's great, I get the RB age cliff might be distorted by the Great RB Prospect Drought of 2009-2014, but I honestly don't care how good Harris is when he's gonna be 23 when he plays his first NFL game compared to an Akers who'd only just turned 21 when he was wrapping up training camp. It's like people that wanted Hayden Hurst when he was already nearly 25 when he was drafted or Brandon weeden a decade ago. It's just crazy to me (for the record Hurst will be 28, freaking 28, when the league kickoffs next fall). 

 

No matter how good he is, you are already investing in a guy whose seen 2 prime earning years gone up in smoke for free for Alabama, no thanks, a thousand times no thanks. 

 

 

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

So odd to me. As great as he is, he's 1.5-2 years older than the bulk of the '20 RB class. In a league that refuses to give RB second contracts because they'll be 25/26 when they start that deal, why on earth would anyone waste a blue chip/1st round pick on a guy that turns 23 in March? You've already said goodbye to what should've been 2 years of his prime thanks to him sticking around at Alabama until he was an overage prospect. It's flat out lunacy to me. I get that he's a marvelous talent, but Cam Akers is playing this sunday at age 21, Harris turns 23 in March. Just crazy to me. 

 

I get he's great, I get the RB age cliff might be distorted by the Great RB Prospect Drought of 2009-2014, but I honestly don't care how good Harris is when he's gonna be 23 when he plays his first NFL game compared to an Akers who'd only just turned 21 when he was wrapping up training camp. It's like people that wanted Hayden Hurst when he was already nearly 25 when he was drafted or Brandon weeden a decade ago. It's just crazy to me (for the record Hurst will be 28, freaking 28, when the league kickoffs next fall). 

 

No matter how good he is, you are already investing in a guy whose seen 2 prime earning years gone up in smoke for free for Alabama, no thanks, a thousand times no thanks. 

 

 

I don’t even know what to say with some of your takes. They are different, for sure.

[RedskininATL]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Got a bunch more to do... But so far:

 

 

WR		College	Ht/Wt
1	DeVonta Smith	Alabama	6-1, 175
2	JaMarr Chase*	LSU	6-1, 200
3	Jaylen Waddle*	Alabama	5-10, 182
4	Chris Olave*	Ohio State	6-1, 185
5	Rashod Bateman	Minnesota	6-2, 210
6	Seth Williams*	Auburn	6-3, 224
7	Kadarius Toney	Florida	5-11, 190
8	Amon-Ra St. Brown*	USC	6-1, 195
9	Dyami Brown*	UNC	6-1, 195
10	Rondale Moore	Purdue	5-9, 180
11	Marquez Stevenson	Houston	6-0, 190
12	Tylan Wallace	Ok. State	6-0, 185
13	Sage Surratt*	Wake	6-3, 215
14	Tamorrion Terry	FSU	6-4, 230
15	Tre Walker	San Jose St	5-11, 180
16	Damonte Coxie*	Memphis	6-3, 197

 

 

I'll post the writeups when I finish. 

 

Here's who I have left (and I have to add some guys, too:

 

 

Anthony Schwartz*	Auburn	6-1, 179
Trevon Grimes	Florida	6-5, 214
Tutu Atwell*	Louisville	5-9, 153
Randall St. Felix*	USF	6-2, 211
Tarik Black	Texas*	6-3, 206
Terrace Marshall	LSU	6-3, 200
Marlon Williams	UCF	6-0, 215
Dazz Newsome	UNC	6-3, 197
Tyler Vaughns	USC	6-2, 190
Ihmir Smith-Marsette	Iowa	6-2, 175
Jaquarii Roberson	Wake	6-1, 182
Reggie Roberson	SMU	6-0, 200
Amari Rodgers	Clemson	5-9, 210
Elijah Moore	Ole Miss	5-9, 185
Nico Collins	Michigan	6-4, 222

KDawg.   Take a look at Cornell Powell from Clemson too for a later draft pick  (5-7)    Was 5th year Sr. who finally got to play more this year after sitting behind Ross and Higgins.   Watch the OSU game this year and what he was doing to Wade.   

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, RedskininATL said:

KDawg.   Take a look at Cornell Powell from Clemson too for a later draft pick  (5-7)    Was 5th year Sr. who finally got to play more this year after sitting behind Ross and Higgins.   Watch the OSU game this year and what he was doing to Wade.   

I liked him in the Natty. Will do.

[Ball Security]

Shifting back to LB, has anyone studied up on ASU’s (Antonio Pierce’s) Merlin Robertson?  Could he be a good target with our second 3rd or 4th rounder? Preseason Butkus Award watch list, but the team only played four games.