The "Re-Opening" the Economy Thread

[Corcaigh]

I think the argument is that with social distancing, hand washing, aggressive disinfecting, avoiding certain activities, etc. an 'acceptable' tradeoff can be accomplished where there is more economic activity and the medical system is not overwhelmed with new cases. The lockdowns that have been practiced may be sufficient to prevent the collapse of the medical system IF people act appropriately.

 

In desperate economic times there will be a significant increase in ill-health and suicide.

 

If we had someone better in the White House there would be a bioethics board of the best minds evaluating these tradeoffs. But I haven't seen any evidence of this with the current administration aside from a few billionaires and right-wing TV pundits, and so even discussing the topic makes you appear to be on the side of the sociopaths.

 

Here's one article that covers some of the issues: https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/when-will-lockdowns-be-worse-than-covid19-by-peter-singer-and-michael-plant-2020-04

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Corcaigh

[LadySkinsFan]

The logic is of course monetarily driven, not humanity driven.  If we were humanity driven, we would fire up the economy from the bottom up instead filling the coffers of the 1% with more money, iow trickle down voodoo economics.

 

We should be giving monthly support to individuals so they can keep up with their basic expenses, housing, food, health, etc. People actually buy things and generate income for businesses. For businesses that have to downscale employees, services and products, they should get help. The emphasis should help local businesses and not big businesses that don't pay taxes. 

 

As it is, we again have a Congress that gives away money and increases debt to those who don't really need it. 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by LadySkinsFan

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, Corcaigh said:

I think the argument is that with social distancing, hand washing, aggressive disinfecting, avoiding certain activities, etc. an 'acceptable' tradeoff can be accomplished where there is more economic activity and the medical system is not overwhelmed with new cases. The lockdowns that have been practiced may be sufficient to prevent the collapse of the medical system IF people act appropriately.

 

In desperate economic times there will be a significant increase in ill-health and suicide.

 

If we had someone better in the White House there would be a bioethics board of the best minds evaluating these tradeoffs. But I haven't seen any evidence of this with the current administration aside from a few billionaires and right-wing TV pundits, and so even discussing the topic makes you appear to be on the side of the sociopaths.

This is where my head is at.

 

Obviously, you can't keep everything shutdown forever.  But you need POTUS to be very candid and serious in explaining to the public that with the opening of the economy, comes continued social distancing, wearing masks, hand washing, etc.  if it comes from anyone else, his cult will never get it.  Beyond that, there needs to be a plan in place to continually help the businesses that will struggle to stay afloat with less volume as a result of social distancing.  This hodge podge re-opening based on his farce of a 'reopening American again' plan in conjunction with him and his buddies refusing to wear masks and publicly praising the lunatics protesting is taking a bad situation and making it much, much worse.

Edited May 6, 2020 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[visionary]

It’s going to be harder to get people to follow the rules if we open up and have to close back down.  A lot of places were already way too slow to close and some never closed at all.

 

Also the idea of buying time to lesson the burden on heath facilities was based on the idea of somewhat uniform behavior around the country and people actually following the rules, which to be fair a good number of folks have.  It’s unclear how much damage people who did’t go along may have done, especially the rallies and we may not know that for sometime.

 

 Also some places have been really unwise with their re-opening plans and the government (especially one guy) isn’t exactly making things easier by being so erratic and confusing and misleading.

Edited May 6, 2020 by visionary

[goskins10]

5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

 Thanks for your response. 

 

 New cases have been accumulating all along without testing. Plenty of people are being diagnosed with this and not being tested. What is the clause about "counties with no new reported positives" anyway? Are those the only counties eligible to begin to reopen? 

 

In VA they laid out rules that they would reopen in phases. Those phases are at least 3 weeks apart. The Gov then added that counties without new cases reported for 3 weeks could skip the current phase and move to the next. It was in the article that @Jumbo posted yesterday. 

 

And yes i know new cases have been identified without testing. That has nothing to do with people actively deciding not to test to reduce or even eliminate those cases. They can now claim they were something else = common flu or cold. Without the test to confirm it's just a diagnosis without validation. You need the test to be sure. 

 

 

[PleaseBlitz]

The net effect of opening up is that some people are going to congregate more and therefore some of those people will get sick and spread it to others, and that will cause the people that are following the best practices to have to choose to self-isolate for much longer, which is unfair to the people following the rules and also will keep the economy severely depressed for much longer.  

Edited May 6, 2020 by PleaseBlitz

[China]

America begins to reopen but businesses and customers in no rush to get back

 

They were not exactly rushing to embrace their new-found freedom in Liberty, Missouri.

 

Even as the state endured its largest increase in coronavirus cases on Monday, Missouri’s Republican governor, Mike Parson, decided to press ahead with his plan to allow businesses to reopen and to lift restrictions on social gatherings imposed as the pandemic crept closer six weeks ago.

 

But for all the fury of gun-toting protests against lockdowns and stay-at-home orders in some parts of America, only a smattering of Liberty’s shops and restaurants opened their doors.

 

While many people were pleased to see the restrictions eased, some also harbored doubts about whether it might lead to a resurgence of Covid-19, with Missouri recording more than 8,700 confirmed cases and a total of 358 deaths by Monday, and projections that 3,000 people a day could be dying across the US in a month.

 

A short line formed outside Brendle’s barber shop, where the owner had refused offers of large payments to cut hair during the closure.

 

Parson lifted the closures as part of what he calls his “Show Me Strong” recovery plan, which relies heavily on testing for the virus and access to protective equipment, both of which remain limited. Brendle doesn’t have a lot of confidence that Parson or the state government know what they are doing, not least because they have done little to help her over the past six weeks.

 

“There’s no organization. There’s no real plan. Just open up and we’ll see what happens,” she said. “We all know there’s going to be a resurgence in cases. But if they don’t know what to do, I sure as hell don’t.”

 

Confidence in the governor was not enhanced when Parson decided to mark the reopening by touring an electrical contractor and a hunting and fishing store without wearing a face mask, in a pointed rejection of federal health recommendations.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

In VA they laid out rules that they would reopen in phases. Those phases are at least 3 weeks apart. The Gov then added that counties without new cases reported for 3 weeks could skip the current phase and move to the next. It was in the article that @Jumbo posted yesterday. 

 

And yes i know new cases have been identified without testing. That has nothing to do with people actively deciding not to test to reduce or even eliminate those cases. They can now claim they were something else = common flu or cold. Without the test to confirm it's just a diagnosis without validation. You need the test to be sure. 

 

 

 

Thanks...I'm caught up now. I guess I would have to understand what they mean by "cases reported" then. Again, by whom? If I visit a doctor or hospital with a fever and other symptoms, it really doesn't matter what I want it to be called...the doctor can diagnose me with Covid-19 and there's your reported case. Or do you mean that the doctors might suppress the numbers? To me, if even 1 reported case over 3 weeks nullifies that fast-track, a lot of things would have to be swept under the rug by a lot of parties to fake that outcome. 

3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

The net effect of opening up is that some people are going to congregate more and therefore some of those people will get sick and spread it to others, and that will cause the people that are following the best practicesto have to choose to do it for much longer, which is unfair to the people following the rules.  

 

That's fair, but I don't see the alternative. All through society we have some bad apples who ruin certain things for those who follow the rules. 

[goskins10]

Just now, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Thanks...I'm caught up now. I guess I would have to understand what they mean by "cases reported" then. Again, by whom? If I visit a doctor or hospital with a fever and other symptoms, it really doesn't matter what I want it to be called...the doctor can diagnose me with Covid-19 and there's your reported case. Or do you mean that the doctors might suppress the numbers? To me, if even 1 reported case over 3 weeks nullifies that fast-track, a lot of things would have to be swept under the rug by a lot of parties to fake that outcome. 

 

And that's my point. The requirements are vague and without validation. It leaves the door open for many to do whatever they want without repercussion, other than people needlessly dying of course. 

 

 

[visionary]

We should also keep in mind that the idea of shutting things down temporarily as a way to buy time was from back when we knew a lot less about Covid and how wide spread it’s actually been and who it affected and was dangerous for.  We’ve seen lots of people dying since then who were not elderly or immunocompromised. And we’re still figuring out the various symptoms and who is most susceptible to it.  Personally I don’t want to end up dead, on a ventilator, or with messed up lungs because everyone else ditches social distancing etc, even if I’m treated well in the hospital in the meantime.

[PleaseBlitz]

3 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

That's fair, but I don't see the alternative. All through society we have some bad apples who ruin certain things for those who follow the rules.

 

Not relaxing the current stay-home orders for a while.  

[TD_washingtonredskins]

13 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Not relaxing the current stay-home orders for a while.  

 

If you've already answered this, I apologize...but what is "a while" to you? 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I received an e-mail today from a golf course I play at in MD.  They said they’ve been working with the golf associations and sending letters to Hogan with no response.  They are going rogue effective tomorrow and opening for business.  They said they are very serious about safety, and making everyone print and sign an agreement prior to coming saying they will comply with all social distancing rules.  They won’t be posting about it on social media.  However, they’ve put a lot of trust in their email list, that nobody will tell on them.

 

That said, I really don’t understand how golf in the manner in which courses have adopted new rules is a danger to spreading the virus.  I can understand their issue on this.

[PleaseBlitz]

34 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

If you've already answered this, I apologize...but what is "a while" to you? 

 

I have answered it, but it was a few pages ago so I won't make you look for it .  To me, since I live in VA, I'd say that it means until the previously described metrics for reopening (which came from the White House) have been satisfied.  Those metrics are (1) robust testing (which Northam has pegged at 10,000 tests conducted per day for Virginia) and (2) a 2 week period of declining cases.  Today, neither of those criteria have been met in Virginia.  We could be close to both of them (i.e., within 2 weeks).

 

These are the metrics developed on the federal level by Fauci and his staff.  I'm inclined to follow their advice, not politicians trying to score points with Donald Trump by being sycophants. 

 

18 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I received an e-mail today from a golf course I play at in MD.  They said they’ve been working with the golf associations and sending letters to Hogan with no response.  They are going rogue effective tomorrow and opening for business.  They said they are very serious about safety, and making everyone print and sign an agreement prior to coming saying they will comply with all social distancing rules.  They won’t be posting about it on social media.  However, they’ve put a lot of trust in their email list, that nobody will tell on them.

 

That said, I really don’t understand how golf in the manner in which courses have adopted new rules is a danger to spreading the virus.  I can understand their issue on this.

 

Some golf courses in Virginia (i think private) have stayed open.  I don't golf regularly but I know my brother has been playing just about every day at his club in NoVa.  I think you can theorectically play golf safely if you follow some basic procedures (e.g., one person to a cart unless you are family, close the putting green, space out the groups, don't touch the pin, etc). Of course, when I do golf my ability to strictly abide by best practices goes out the window around my 5th beer on hole #3. 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by PleaseBlitz

[The Evil Genius]

I don't understand county by county phased openings and especially more so on the east coast where you can drive through 5 counties in a hour. Whats going to keep people in phase 1 County Apple from infecting people in phase 2 County Blackberry?

Edited May 6, 2020 by The Evil Genius

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

39 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Some golf courses in Virginia (i think private) have stayed open.  I don't golf regularly but I know my brother has been playing just about every day at his club in NoVa.  I think you can theorectically play golf safely if you follow some basic procedures (e.g., one person to a cart unless you are family, close the putting green, space out the groups, don't touch the pin, etc). Of course, when I do golf my ability to strictly abide by best practices goes out the window around my 5th beer on hole #3. 

Every golf course I know of that is open adopted rules early on about 1 person to a cart, sanitized after every use, have to putt with the pin in with objects in the cup to prevent people from even having to put their hands in the cup, rangers monitoring to assure people aren't close together during play, no handshakes, or anything that would have people in close proximity of one another.

 

To my knowledge, all the public courses I play in the Front Royal area in VA have been open this whole time, under those guidelines.  Unfortunately, I've been so swamped with work, I haven't had the time, ability, or permission from the spouse, to get out there.

 

The one person to a cart rule alone puts courses at a disadvantage from an expense standpoint, but given how little help there is out there for these businesses, they are trying to do what they can to stay afloat.

Edited May 6, 2020 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[goskins10]

9 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Every golf course I know of that is open adopted rules early on about 1 person to a cart, sanitized after every use, have to putt with the pin in with objects in the cup to prevent people from even having to put their hands in the cup, rangers monitoring to assure people aren't close together during play, no handshakes, or anything that would have people in close proximity of one another.

 

To my knowledge, all the public courses I play in the Front Royal area in VA have been open this whole time, under those guidelines.  Unfortunately, I've been so swamped with work, I haven't had the time, ability, or permission from the spouse, to get out there.

 

The one person to a cart rule alone puts courses at a disadvantage from an expense standpoint, but given how little help there is out there for these businesses, they are trying to do what they can to stay afloat.

 

Courses in GA are open. I have been playing about 4 times a week. They all do have Corona rules. No taking the flag out. No rakes in the bunkers. One person to a cart. No public water on the course. All bars and dining rooms are closed. Most club houses are closed. You check in through a window or with the starter. They even have credit card machines for payments outside. No contact. 

 

I have found most people respectful. Just like most things, there are always a few morons. But for he most part people have been very respectful. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, goskins10 said:

All bars and dining rooms are closed.

I didn't even take this into account when thinking about the money they are bleeding.  I've seen some courses with full kitchens offering takeout specials, but there's no chance it's anywhere near what they are accustomed to.  For whatever reasons, people see golf courses as big money makers, but from all the financials I've seen that couldn't be further from the truth.  I analyze financials for an aviation broker for a living, and I'm really starting to get concerned about 2021 and moving forward, as far as the impacts this will have on businesses financials, creating an inability to finance.  I just saw my first 'covid relief forbearance' on a credit report.  People do not realize that when these banks are handing out 'forbearances' like candy that they come at a cost to their credit.  Things are only just getting started with how badly this is going to shake out.  

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

CostCo leans in...

 

 

[The Evil Genius]

...and it's also Costco's choice (in non-mask mandatory counties/states) to require a mandatory no shirt, no shoes, no mask, no entrance policy. 

 

The MAGAs acknowledge that the business Costco is people, right?

 

Edit..I'd bet it's buried somewhere in the membership agreement too (much like their right to stop you and check receipts). 

Edited May 6, 2020 by The Evil Genius

[PleaseBlitz]

I do believe that the Costco Wholesale twitter account is not an official Costco account, its just some hilarious rando that ****s with idiots. 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

2 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

I have answered it, but it was a few pages ago so I won't make you look for it .  To me, since I live in VA, I'd say that it means until the previously described metrics for reopening (which came from the White House) have been satisfied.  Those metrics are (1) robust testing (which Northam has pegged at 10,000 tests conducted per day for Virginia) and (2) a 2 week period of declining cases.  Today, neither of those criteria have been met in Virginia.  We could be close to both of them (i.e., within 2 weeks).

 

These are the metrics developed on the federal level by Fauci and his staff.  I'm inclined to follow their advice, not politicians trying to score points with Donald Trump by being sycophants. 

 

 

 

Hasn't VA been declining since 4/27? If so, wouldn't we be entering Phase 1 on Day 18 of decline? It seems OK to me to PLAN to open on May 15. We know that if there's suddenly a spike or upward trend we can pivot and change those plans. Unless you wouldn't want any plan declared until we've seen 14 consecutive days? 

 

As for testing, I'll need to do more research on that one. 

[visionary]

 

[Bacon]