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48 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:


Callahan is far more highly regarded as an o line coach than KOC is as an OC and they let him go without issue. Retaining KOC will undermine Rivera from day 1. You want to change culture? 

 

And you know this how? Lord knows your predictions on Haskins are starting to be disproven...

 

So I would put your knowledge of player evaluation at a 2 right now...and your overall football knowledge at about the same.

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27 minutes ago, MartinC said:


I just fundamentally disagree. 
 

The single most important factor that will make Rivera a success here is the development of Haskins. This is his offense next season and we go as he goes. The progress of his game under KOC and the improvement in offensive production in the last couple of starts was extremely encouraging. The biggest jump a young QB makes (heck ANY QB makes) in a new system is year two. 
 

Now this is an offense that was 32 in passing yardage and 32 in 3rd down conversions so it’s fair for anyone (including Rivera) to have doubts. But there is also a ton of logic in retaining KOC and the continuity. But to think Rivera took this job if retaining KOC was a condition is just a fantasy conspiracy theory as far as I am concerned and firing KOC just so some fans don’t run with that would be a nonsense.


Well it might be your perception.


Look at Ron’s past offensive coordinators: 
 

Rob Chudzinski

Mike Shula

Nov Turner

 

All have a ton of experience before becoming OC for Ron. Now suddenly with a second year QB he is going to hand the reigns of his offense over to an OC who only had the title for a single year under an offensive minded head coach who called the plays? Nothing about that aligns with Ron’s past history.


He’s old school and believes in relationships and coaching experience. If KOC is the OC, 100 percent Dan had influence on that decision. The burden of proof would be to show that wasn’t the case. Which is impossible. If KOC is the OC it’s more of the same old Redskins. Simple as that in my opinion. KOC better produce because this decision will undermine Ron if we hit a rough patch.

7 minutes ago, Xameil said:

And you know this how? Lord knows your predictions on Haskins are starting to be disproven...

 

So I would put your knowledge of player evaluation at a 2 right now...and your overall football knowledge at about the same.


Says the dude who was a Campbell apologist for years. If I’m at a 2. You are at negative 50.

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I believe Rivera coming in with Haskins as the starter/development QB is similar to Jay Gruden coming in with RG3.  The big difference is RG3 at least had 2012 on his resume (and while 2013 wasn't fantastic, he was playing with a knee brace and still wasn't awful, just not very good either).  

 

What this does IMO is sort of shorten the window on figuring out what we have in Haskins.  Rivera knows he is on the clock to improve the team. I don't think he will want to go more than a single season not knowing for sure whether Haskins is the QB to lead this team to the promised land or not.  It doesn't mean Haskins has to look like a  beast in 2020, I just think it means Haskins will at least look like a QB that will turn into  beast in the next season or two in order for them to stick with him. 

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2 hours ago, skinsfan212689 said:

I have to be honest, I get the feeling some (not all) people only want to keep KOC because of the Sean McVay leaving affect....
 

Hail

I agree. I think people are reluctant to let him go because of what happened with Sean M, Kyle S and Matt L, even though KOC hasn't demonstrated enough yet in my opinion to show that he is in the same league as those three. KOC may indeed turn out to be very good but so far, his work showing Haskins has improved has only spanned a few games...not enough in my opinion to be conclusive yet.

 

Also, I haven't been that impressed yet with KOC's game calls. For example, I don't think that the play calling on the offense was that great in this last Cowboys game.   I'd like to see KOC stick around but I wouldn't be surprised if Ron either replaces him completely or at least brings in a more experienced OC for him to play under.

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52 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:


No. If Rivera keeps him it’s because Dan pretty much insisted on it. That will be the perception. The only way Ron can show this is indeed a new chapter and new culture is to get rid of him. Even if he thinks he’s qualified. Doesn’t matter. At this point KOC has to go.

 

So if Rivera goes through the interview process with KOC and maybe a couple of others and decides that KOC is the best candidate based on that interview process then he should still give him his walking papers so that he can avoid some clickbait media articles that may pop up afterwards saying that it's because "Dan told him to"? Or do you honestly believe that the players/fans/other coaches will assume that it's because of Dan and not because Rivera, who is widely respected as an extremely straight shooter and honest, actually believed that KOC was the right guy for the job?

 

This just makes no sense to me. The right guy for the job is the right guy for the job. You want Rivera to tiptoe around on eggshells with everything he does so he can make sure that nobody anywhere can possibly come up with a perception that Dan had meddled in something? 

 

Or wait, are you actually saying that if Rivera keeps KOC then Dan actually DID interfere? So in that case, if Rivera comes out after the interview process and says he's keeping KOC because he's the best candidate for the job, will you call him a liar?

Edited by mistertim
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2 hours ago, SoCalSkins said:

If KOC stays it will be viewed as Snyder meddling. This is how it’s starts. Rivera should hit the complete reset and eliminate that perception...

I see what you're saying. But I'm not so concerned with how the KOC decision is viewed. I think if KOC is retained and he stinks up the joint and still remains an inordinate amount of time, I'll say there is meddling involved. But I will have a bit more patience before i come to that conclusion. I remember the game Cousins and McVay were sitting on the bench and McVay was saying I'm learning (at the 1 minute mark) after the offense seemed to open things up a bit.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So if Rivera goes through the interview process with KOC and maybe a couple of others and decides that KOC is the best candidate based on that interview process then he should still give him his walking papers so that he can avoid some clickbait media articles that may pop up afterwards saying that it's because "Dan told him to"? Or do you honestly believe that the players/fans/other coaches will assume that it's because of Dan and not because Rivera, who is widely respected as an extremely straight shooter and honest, actually believed that KOC was the right guy for the job?

 

This just makes no sense to me. The right guy for the job is the right guy for the job. You want Rivera to tiptoe around on eggshells with everything he does so he can make sure that nobody anywhere can possibly come up with a perception that Dan had meddled in something? 


Based on his past hires KOC is not qualified  based on his lack of experience to be the OC for a Ron Rivera coached team. Yet he is retaining him despite it going against his consistent old school staff hiring philosophy after taking a new job with a second year QB? None of that makes sense unless there is meddling and undermining.

 

He puts that to rest by doing a complete reset. It’s not that complicated. We had the second worst record in the NFL. Retaining the OC with a single year of experience on the second worst team in football is somehow the sound decision? It’s mind blowingly absurd.

 

 

Edited by SoCalSkins
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What we also have to remember is O'Connell was still under Bill Callahan's thumb as far as game plans and calling plays.  It wasn't until Week 15 & 16 that it seemed like Callahan was allowing O'Connell to open the passing game up more and get away from the "run, run, pass" formula.   Maybe Callahan finally had more confidence in Haskins to be in command of the offense!?  Whatever it was, there was an obvious difference in how O'Connell called plays once Callahan was seeming to let him captain more of that ship.

 

I don't think it is safe to assume (assuming KOC stays) that after an entire offseason of working on the playbook, working with Haskins, training camp, practice etc etc etc.....that O'Connell is going to gameplan the same way he did in 2019.

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Honestly, who the F cares about outside white noise/ perception? I mean seriously. He's not even 24 hours into the gig and this is a concern? 

 

It seems more and more apparent that Rivera has FULL autonomy to build this his way here. Or else he wouldn't be here. So if he ends up wanting to keep KOC, or anyone else holds over from last years staff for that matter, then that's ALL that matters. 

 

Coach Rivera strikes me as the type of guy who won't give a flying F what anyone outside the building thinks on any decisions he makes. 

 

We need to get into the same mindset and stop stressing over every possible outcome. 

 

Hail. 

Edited by Gibbs Hog Heaven
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I don’t think anyone really knows what there is in O’Connell. By all accounts others around the league think he has a lot of potential to be an offensive guru head coach candidate. He was handcuffed a bit by Callahan and the QB development situation and had to run a lot more than  he probably would have preferred. All that being said the conspiracy theory of Snyder forcing this on Rivera as his first act as an owner with a new coach who has asked to wait on hiring a GM and wants control over football operations for now, is complete and total nonsense and not worth discussing. O’Connell would have a solid playbook already in place and continuity with the starting QB. He would be running a modern west coast offense and that is a huge benefit. He could be fired if he doesn’t progress, but my guess is we’ll lose him to a head coaching opportunity at some point. I don’t think he’s gonna fail but I don’t have proof of that. I think, if they are gonna roll with Haskins, this is by far the best move. If Burrows drops and they draft him, then it is much easier to simply move on, but that’s not going to happen. O’Connell knows the personnel and everything already too which is a huge advantage too. 

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4 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:


Based on his past hires KOC is not qualified  based on his lack of experience to be the OC for a Ron Rivera coached team. Yet he is retaining him despite it going against his consistent old school staff hiring philosophy after taking a new job with a second year QB? None of that makes sense unless there is meddling and undermining.

 

He puts that to rest by doing a complete reset. It’s not that complicated. We had the second worst record in the NFL. Retaining the OC with a single of year of experience on the second worst team in football is somehow the sound decision? It’s mind blowingly absurd.

 

 

But you don't actually know what is or isn't "qualified" to Rivera; you're just basing it purely off of what he's done in the past. You're not in his head and I doubt you have chats with him on the regular. He has some old school tendencies and does tend to value experience in his coordinators, but I think he's also pretty flexible when it comes to how he goes about things and isn't against change. I was reading about how he refused to do the analytics stuff as recently as 2016 but once he saw more of it he says he sees the value in it as a tool now...not to replace anything, but to augment it. 

 

But again, same question. If Rivera comes out and says "I decided to retain KOC as our OC because after the interview process and going through what his plans would be for the upcoming season I believe he's the best man for the job" will you call him a liar?

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Just now, NoCalMike said:

What we also have to remember is O'Connell was still under Bill Callahan's thumb as far as game plans and calling plays.  It wasn't until Week 15 & 16 that it seemed like Callahan was allowing O'Connell to open the passing game up more and get away from the "run, run, pass" formula.   Maybe Callahan finally had more confidence in Haskins to be in command of the offense!?  Whatever it was, there was an obvious difference in how O'Connell called plays once Callahan was seeming to let him captain more of that ship.

 

I don't think it is safe to assume (assuming KOC stays) that after an entire offseason of working on the playbook, working with Haskins, training camp, practice etc etc etc.....that O'Connell is going to gameplan the same way he did in 2019.


So if you are correct. KOC with experience in calling 3 whole games in his life with the OC title for a single year under the thumb of 2 offensive coaches who produced the second worst record in the NFL, is somehow qualified to run the entire offense for a defensive minded head coach? His nickname is Riverboat Ron but a smart gambler folds this hand...

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31 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:


Based on his past hires KOC is not qualified  based on his lack of experience to be the OC for a Ron Rivera coached team. Yet he is retaining him despite it going against his consistent old school staff hiring philosophy after taking a new job with a second year QB? None of that makes sense unless there is meddling and undermining.

 

He puts that to rest by doing a complete reset. It’s not that complicated. We had the second worst record in the NFL. Retaining the OC with a single year of experience on the second worst team in football is somehow the sound decision? It’s mind blowingly absurd.

 

 


If we let KOC gone he will be out of work about a week. He’s on McDaniels list as OC if he gets a HC gig and there is also talk he could replace McDaniels in New England if he leaves. 
 

if Rivera wants to go in a different direction that’s his right. But to suggest the only reason KOC might be retained is Dan Snyder meddling is ridiculous. And to say he should be fired just in case people might think he is meddling is even more ridiculous.

 

I do think Haskins and KOC will be on a short clock. They need to show continued progress next season or Rivera might cut bait with both.

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1 hour ago, SoCalSkins said:


That’s the rub, if he doesn’t retain him then he obviously has full control. If he does, it raises questions. Therefore it’s far better move to not retain him in order to put any doubts to rest.

If Haskins is as big of a bust as you proclaimed him to be over and over and over then none of this will matter.

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2 minutes ago, MartinC said:


If we let KOC gone he will be out of work about a week. He’s on McDaniels list as OC if he gets a HC gig and there is also talk he could replace McDaniels in New England if he leaves. 
 

if Rivera wants to go in a different direction that’s his right. But to suggest the only reason KOC might be retained is Dan Snyder meddling is ridiculous. And to say he should be fired just in case people might think he meddling is even more ridiculous.

 

I do think Haskins and KOC will be on a short clock. They need to show continued progress next season or Rivera might cut bait with both.


Don’t get me wrong. I absolutely LOVE the Rivera hire. I think he can turn this around very fast particularly given how bad the division is. This is the most optimistic I have been for the team since 2012. I just don’t get keeping KOC. In my mind it’s too risky given the lack of experience particularly when Ron will focus on D. If he keeps him, then we roll with it but I personally think that’s a mistake.


It looks like I am going to very wrong about Haskins(which honestly makes me happy) so hopefully this is the same, but it just feels fishy to me.

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6 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:


Don’t get me wrong. I absolutely LOVE the Rivera hire. I think he can turn this around very fast particularly given how bad the division is. This is the most optimistic I have been for the team since 2012. I just don’t get keeping KOC. In my mind it’s too risky given the lack of experience particularly when Ron will focus on D. If he keeps him, then we roll with it but I personally think that’s a mistake.


It looks like I am going to very wrong about Haskins(which honestly makes me happy) so hopefully this is the same, but it just feels fishy to me.


Everything about next season on offense is about building around Haskins and giving him every opportunity to develop and succeed. Retaining KOC and a system Haskins has spent his first year learning and shown development in makes a lot of sense. Do you want Haskins building on the development of this year and being able to play rather than think about what he is doing and having the playbook expand? Or do you want him learning a new system and starting over?

 

At the end of next season if Haskins has not shown development and we are in the 20’s or 30’s on offense there will be changes made. I don’t think that will be the case.

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51 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

He’s old school and believes in relationships and coaching experience. If KOC is the OC, 100 percent Dan had influence on that decision. The burden of proof would be to show that wasn’t the case. Which is impossible. If KOC is the OC it’s more of the same old Redskins. Simple as that in my opinion. KOC better produce because this decision will undermine Ron if we hit a rough patch.

57 minutes ago, Xameil said:

 

Thats (not) really sound logic you've got there. You formed a conclusion - that Rivera was forced to fire KOC - and then you make assumptions to fit that narrative. And you openly declare yourself right by saying it is impossible for him to show that he wasn't influenced to hire KOC. 

 

What about the people who have met O'Connell? The word in the streets is that he's hella smart. Rex Ryan talks about this and hired him as his QB coach. I wonder how close the two are since they're both a part of the Andy Reid coaching tree (Ryan through Harbaugh, Rivers through Reid). Wouldn't surprise me if they've talked. And if KOC is as smart as people say (and under contract already), how likely is it that he just went in there and aced the interview. He has 11 games on his resume calling plays, with at least 2 games with no leash and one of those games was the straw that broke the camel's back to get Rivera fired. 

 

But yeah but all your eggs into the basket that he was a forced hire. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, MartinC said:


Everything about next season on offence is about building around Haskins and giving him every opportunity to develop and succeed. Retaining KOC and a system Haskins has spent his first year learning and shown development in makes a lot of sense. Do you want Haskins building on the development of this year and being able to play rather than think about what he is doing and having the playbook expand? Or do you want him learning a new system and starting over?


I personally think Jim Caldwell would do more for Haskins than KOC ever could. He has stated he is healthy and ready to get back into coaching. He would fit right in with the staff Ron is putting together and I am sure would instantly build a rapport with Haskins.
 

Also, OC under a defensive minded head coach is more than just developing the QB. Are we going to get top notch position coaches willing to work under an OC they have vastly more experience than? KOC is under contract. I would be happy if they retained him under a Jim Caldwell asst head coach offense scenario.

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1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:


I personally think Jim Caldwell would do more for Haskins than KOC ever could. He has stated he is healthy and ready to get back into coaching. He would fit right in with the staff Ron is putting together and I am sure would instantly build a rapport with Haskins.
 

Also, OC under a defensive minded head coach is more than just developing the QB. Are we going to get top notch position coaches willing to work under an OC they have vastly more experience than? KOC is under contract. I would be happy if they retained him under a Jim Caldwell asst head coach offense scenario.

 

So this basically boils down to you pushing a personal favourite guy. 

 

Which is sound.

 

Framing the narrative it's the owner'medling', not so much. 

 

Hail. 

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11 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:


I personally think Jim Caldwell would do more for Haskins than KOC ever could. He has stated he is healthy and ready to get back into coaching. He would fit right in with the staff Ron is putting together and I am sure would instantly build a rapport with Haskins.
 

Also, OC under a defensive minded head coach is more than just developing the QB. Are we going to get top notch position coaches willing to work under an OC they have vastly more experience than? KOC is under contract. I would be happy if they retained him under a Jim Caldwell asst head coach offense scenario.


Now here I think I can agree to an extent. The hires around KOC (if retained) will be key. I don’t think you handcuff him with putting an assistant head coach above his head, that just continues the dysfunction we have had here too long of too many chiefs with conflicting job descriptions. Either you are in on KOC as the OC or move on - and that’s Rivera’s call. But I do think having an experienced QB coach and WR coach who he can call on for assistance is important. The O’Line hire is also vital for different reasons.

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I think keeping The Commandant makes sense. He knows the personnel. He knows Haskins. 
 

I think replacing him makes sense (but the name better fit with the Commandant label).

 

And I don’t think, in any way, shape or form, that Rivera is being influenced by anyone on any of these decisions.

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We are a whole 48 ours into our promised land and here come the negative grenades. Dan is already meddling and Rivera is walking on eggshells. Will most likely be fired tomorrow. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. I love this new set up and I can't wait for the next five years to unfold.......maybe good, maybe bad but it can't and won't be like it was because Rivera is a ****ing man, respected by EVERYONE, and won't put up with bull****. Anyone that doesn't pull their weight will be done. I firmly believe that. Ease up and let's ride the wave......

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32 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:


Don’t get me wrong. I absolutely LOVE the Rivera hire. I think he can turn this around very fast particularly given how bad the division is. This is the most optimistic I have been for the team since 2012. I just don’t get keeping KOC. In my mind it’s too risky given the lack of experience particularly when Ron will focus on D. If he keeps him, then we roll with it but I personally think that’s a mistake.


It looks like I am going to very wrong about Haskins(which honestly makes me happy) so hopefully this is the same, but it just feels fishy to me.

I disagree here. With Del Rio coaching defense, Rivera can concentrate a bit more time to oversee KOC and what is happening on that side of the ball. He may not be an offensively minded coach, but he has been around long enough to know how to help an OC grow and see if the proper growth is happening.

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