Next Day Thread: Redskins vs. Dolphins

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

If we want to win

 

Unleash the D over and over, don't go halves at a time of playing soft. Attack the QB.

Promote Harmon and demote PRich. He could probably stand to benefit from managed snaps anyways.  Groom the future. Get Cam some snaps.

Give Stevie Sims more of Quinn's reps in patterns that he cannot screw up. At minimum, let him return punts. 

It was nice to see OCKOC copy some of the misdirection deception fakes at the snap, that we see around the league now.  More of that. Before, it was a fake jet sweep or 2 a game.

 

 

 

 

 

Quinn has been OK.  But the idea that he'd be better than Crowder hasn't been playing out this season.  Granted the season is young.  Sims' speed is intriguing.    I am a big Hamon guy, am with you I'd like to see more.  Cooley says Harmon is already one of the best run blockers in the NFL. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Quinn has been OK.  But the idea that he'd be better than Crowder hasn't been playing out this season.  Granted the season is young.  Sims' speed is intriguing.    I am a big Hamon guy, am with you I'd like to see more.  Cooley says Harmon is already one of the best run blockers in the NFL. 

If Keenum had hit Quinn on either or both of those deep passes, his season would look better.

 

I think it's hard to really judge the WR position because the QB play and the play calling has been so fantastically sketchy.  PRich has made a few good catches, and seems to get separation.  

 

It could be that they actually got this position right.  Most of the guys (except for PRich are draft picks, and they have been doing better in that department for player personnel.

 

However, we won't really know until the QB play and the play calling improves.  I didn't watch the game yesterday, on vacation with the family, but from what I heard, it was somewhat similar.  

 

Honestly, if Keenum is QB, then I'm fine being more run-heavy, as long as they run better.  However, I think they need to mix up WHEN they run, which is the same drum I've been beating since the Vikings game in 2014.  

 

 

As a completely separate thought, as big a critic as I was of Gruden, I was not for firing him in-season because I thought it was going to be pointless.  Replacing him with Callahan and running AP more is doubly pointless.  I'm ok with using that as a way to get a win against the Dolphins.  But if Ol' Bill Callahan thinks he's going to run the ball and start a game with 3 3-outs to loosen up the defense against the 49ers, they're going to be down 21-0 before the running game starts to work better.  

 

Kyle is going to come in here with hatred in his heart and try and cub-stomp these guys.  If they want to avoid being completely blown out, they are going to have to play a whole hell of a lot better than what they did last night.  They will probably lose regardless, but Kyle will not let up.  

[drowland]

56 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

This team is lucky that Fitzpatrick didn't start and play the whole game.  Had he played the whole game, I think we'd have lost.  As soon as he came in, they moved the ball rather effortlessly.  

 

Not sure about that.  The running theme for Miami this year is the best QB is the one coming off the bench.  The flaw was they probably should have switched to Fitzpatrick at the start of the 3rd instead of waiting until the 4th.  

[justice98]

Rosen just doesnt even look the part.  However, big he is, he looks shorter than that.  However much he weighs, he looks slighter than that.  However strong his arm is, it looks weaker than that.  All the arm talent and a ility to play from the pocket he was supposed to have doesnt show up during games.  

 

The draft position thing I still care about because of how hollow the win was.  I dont feel any better about the team and we gave up the #1 pick.  They still look like the worst team in the league.  

[justice98]

53 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Quinn has been OK.  But the idea that he'd be better than Crowder hasn't been playing out this season.  Granted the season is young.  Sims' speed is intriguing.    I am a big Hamon guy, am with you I'd like to see more.  Cooley says Harmon is already one of the best run blockers in the NFL. 

 

Until we get a competent QB in here, I cant judge any of the receivers too harshly.  Mclaurin is just so good, he defies the QB.  But I dont think Crowder would be any more productive than Quinn has been.

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

Until we get a competent QB in here, I cant judge any of the receivers too harshly.  Mclaurin is just so good, he defies the QB.  But I dont think Crowder would be any more productive than Quinn has been.

My hope is that Billy is getting Haskins reps and developing him and plans to get him in after the Minnesota game.  I feel comfortable with taking some time to get Haskins reps in practice for several weeks before throwing him out there.  

 

I expect they're going to get boat raced by the 49ers and probably beat by the Vikings.  So at 1-7, and at that point with a month of development time, it would be a good spot.  

 

Also, I think the bye week comes a week later, so again, that’s a good time to review what happened.  

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 minute ago, drowland said:

 

Not sure about that.  The running theme for Miami this year is the best QB is the one coming off the bench.  The flaw was they probably should have switched to Fitzpatrick at the start of the 3rd instead of waiting until the 4th.  

 

Semantics, I guess.  We're both saying that Fitzpatrick should have been in the game earlier if they wanted a better chance to win.

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, veteranskinsfan said:

For the first time ever I did not watch the game.  Enjoyed the outdoors and getting exercise and not being consumed by how badly this team plays and how

inconsistent the play is from quarter to quarter.  Bought a Washington Nationals baseball hat and watch the baseball playoff game to get my sports fix.

I only caught what Redzone showed of the game...spent the day outside, enjoying the weather with the tv pulled out on the deck. It was awesome watching Dallas lose while sitting outside by the fire smoking a stogie. 

9 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

My hope is that Billy is getting Haskins reps and developing him and plans to get him in after the Minnesota game.  I feel comfortable with taking some time to get Haskins reps in practice for several weeks before throwing him out there.  

 

I expect they're going to get boat raced by the 49ers and probably beat by the Vikings.  So at 1-7, and at that point with a month of development time, it would be a good spot.  

 

Also, I think the bye week comes a week later, so again, that’s a good time to review what happened.  

When Randall Cunningham was a rookie, Buddy Ryan threw him in there only on 3rd downs and told him to "just go make a play". I don't get why we can't insert DH into the game at times while calling plays he's comfortable with. Hell, let him see the Niners defense but don't name him the starter yet. Tell him to be ready and pick spots to put him in. That way he'll have actual game film of himself to watch and learn from. Make sense? Hell, maybe he'll even make a play or two and surprise some people. Call screen passes, end arounds, quick outs, draw plays or even deep shots...simplify it for him but get him out there asap.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

I edited the above with another article.

 

If there was a swing I’d say it was on second down moreso than first. 
 

We’ll see. He deserves some time to see if he does do things dramatically different. That much I agree with. But playing Miami you almost have to run. Or pass. Or do whatever... as they have a historically awful D statistically.

 

Never one to be laconic, haha, I started typing and it turned into a stand-alone thread. 

 

The observations I was alluding to in the glaring difference, to me anyways, from the first 5 weeks, for what it's worth Coach- 

 

Hail. 

[DWinzit]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Quinn has been OK.  But the idea that he'd be better than Crowder hasn't been playing out this season.  Granted the season is young.  Sims' speed is intriguing.    I am a big Hamon guy, am with you I'd like to see more.  Cooley says Harmon is already one of the best run blockers in the NFL. 

I am a big Harmon guy also.I felt he was one of the steals of the draft.

I envision him a sometime slot guy and best friend of whoever the QB is when in the red zone. I am surprised with the TE issues that he hasn't been more involved in the offense.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Opinion: Final touchdown against us was not the fault of Landon Collins or Josh Norman.  We have ourselves a glaring coaching issue.

 

Here's the Devante Parker touchdown with 6 seconds left:

 

Pre-Snap:

- 2 WR's to the left

---------Dunbar 6.5 yards off and has inside leverage on the WR lined up 1 yard outside of the numbers.

---------Moreau is 5.5 yards off and has inside leverage on the WR lined up 2 yards inside the numbers.

---------Nicholson is 6 yards off and further inside than Moreau.

This coverage could be a variety of things.

 

- 2 guys in the backfield with the QB in shotgun.

---------Bostic is lined up in a traditional ILB spot and stance, presumably he's either in Man coverage on one of the guys in the backfield, or he's in zone.

---------Holcomb is looking like he's going to blitz around the edge.

 

-1 WR (Devante Parker) to the right, he's lined up 1 yard outside the numbers.

---------Norman is in a press bail look, he's got clear outside leverage with a hip already opened up towards the inside.

---------Collins is about 8.5 yards off, he's the deepest defender and he's in a zone coverage.  His eyes are glued towards what the QB is doing, and not to the WR on this side.

 

Fitzpatrick starts the cadence, does a brief glance to the left, and ball is hiked.  Not sure if he could see Nicholson creep up or not.  If he did, he'd know it was man coverage on the left.

 

Post-Snap:

-Nicholson and Holcomb blitz, both Dolphins in the backfield stay in to pass-block, no immediate pressure, but the line in front of Fitzpatrick is falling apart.  (If he didn't throw on his 1st target, he would've been sacked before he had time for a 2nd read.)

-Fitzpatrick immediately looks to the right, mentioning again that Collins is playing off of Fitz's eyes.

-Fitzpatrick then shifts his head further to the right and stares down the pylon.

-Collins assumes some kind of out breaking route, so he goes to cut off where Fitz's eyes tell him he's going.

-Fitzpatrick then quickly steps and turns to throw it to Parker cutting in behind where Collins was just moved away from.  This throw from Fitzpatrick is basically blind, he has to trust that Parker's inside route, against a CB with outside leverage, will continue to have the separation it should.

 

ISSUES WITH SCHEME

Norman and Collins roles on this play do not mesh with together.

- Norman's inside leverage is relying on help inside, he's relying on that always being there.  BUT...

- Collins role is an under-zone to that side where he's supposed to read the QB and cut off throwing lanes.

Problem: Veteran QB's (like Fitzpatrick) have over a decade of experience manipulating defenders with their eyes.  Against a Veteran QB, that CB & S coverage plan will be exploited.

 

2 possible solutions that I see.

Solution 1: Norman continues playing outside leverage, and Collins switches from his zone role to that of bracket coverage to the inside.

Solution 2: Collins continues his underzone role, and instead Norman plays straight up on the WR with no leverage to either side.

 

In either of those situations, I don't think we need to worry about one of the guys in the backfield leaking out to that side, (which Collins could see in his underzone), as 1) the guy on the right side of the backfield most likely stays in to pass block once they see Holcomb unblocked off the edge, and 2) Bostic is in a read and react role anyways, he only moves forward once he sees both RB's are staying in.

 

Possible thoughts on why it happened. 

1) They saw on film that Rosen can't manipulate underzone players at all, so Collins would have naturally drifted to where he could have made a play.  Once Fitzpatrick came in, none of the defensive coaches made adjustments to account for a different QB.

2) Collins or Norman were supposed to do something different, and one of them screwed up their assignment.  That said, I don't think it's #2, the team had 3 timeouts left with 6 seconds to go in the game.  If the coaches had seen Norman was in the wrong leverage, or seen Collins was only looking at the QB when he should've been checking the WR's split, then they would have called a timeout to get a correct coverage on the field.

3) It's possible the defensive coaches aren't good, and are befuddled as to why their CB & S coverage scheme failed.

 

So TL;DR, my uneducated and ill-informed guess, is that the coaches had a gameplan for Rosen, and couldn't adjust on the fly once Fitzpatrick came in.  We know we have talent on this defense, but it hasn't materialized into anything not awful.  I blame the coaching here.

[DWinzit]

Makes sense.

The defensive coaching and failed efforts (if any) in making in game adjustments have been the story of the year.

I can't wait until there is a new DC in DC

 

[wrecker]

It seems having the refs at practice actually did some good. The main reason AP was able to have more carries is because the Oline and others weren't putting us in 1st and 20's and 2nd and longs by holding and jumping offsides. However the many 3 and outs and third down play failures were extremely frustrating.

[Panninho]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

If we want to win

 

Unleash the D over and over, don't go halves at a time of playing soft. Attack the QB.

Promote Harmon and demote PRich. He could probably stand to benefit from managed snaps anyways.  Groom the future. Get Cam some snaps.

Give Stevie Sims more of Quinn's reps in patterns that he cannot screw up. At minimum, let him return punts. 

It was nice to see OCKOC copy some of the misdirection deception fakes at the snap, that we see around the league now.  More of that. Before, it was a fake jet sweep or 2 a game.

 

 

 

 

This!

I don't get what they are trying to achieve. It feels like they don't understand that everything they hoped to achieve before the season is no relevant any longer. It's playoffs or bust and we sure as hell are not making the playoffs. So why take this lazy, "secure" approach. They play like they have something to lose.

Unleash this defense! Outside of Dunbar no one can cover in our backfield so stop with this soft approach of rushing 3 guys and letting mediocre QBs pick us apart.

Sit Keenum. I don't care if he gives us the best chance of winning right now. We don't win anything long-term. This is a lost season if we keep playing Keenum. We know what Keenum is, so what's the benefit of playing this dude? He is not even playing good football right now. Let Hasksins make all the mistakes he will definitely make this year, there is nothing to lose this year.

Same goes for Harmon. Paul Richardson was a horrible signing last off-season. I didn't want him in the first place but this guy shows even less than I expected. It's just another bad free agency signing. I'd like to give the young guns some more snaps. I want to see more of Harmon and Sims. Especially if they keep playing Keenum. I'd get it if we played Haskins and wanted to give him the most experienced supporting cast but we are not doing that.

 

Once again, I dont't get this approach of playing everyone who hopefully won't be here next season.

[markmills67]

3 hours ago, SemperFi Skins said:

 

I said the exact same thing.... Ross made a call down to the field, no doubt in my mind.

Then why bother going 75 yards down the field for the TD, if your tanking just run all 3 downs and punt. 

 

HTTR 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

I'm looking at every run that AP had and man, being a RB must be hard.  There are some runs where AP has dynamite vision and immediately reads what's happening correctly, and there are others where he misreads something (unclear if he's looking at a specific blocking key or what) and changes his path when he shouldn't.

 

AP's two longer runs, those were all his vision and jump cuts.  I think he left another longer run on the table that he abandoned his lane early.  It's hard to fault AP for misreading on one run, when he made two great reads earlier.

 

So here's one where the OL was kind of at fault.  Morgan Moses had a soft engage with his defender.  He blocked him, but it was more of a sidestep and catch the defender instead of step into and engage at the LoS.  So Moses lost a step on contact with the defender before securing the block, but since he was already off the LoS and lost another step, it forced AP to think that angle was busted, so he cut it upfield, where the unblocked defenders were waiting for him.

 

The very next run play, Scary Terry was lined up way outside the numbers, so I can see why he thought he was good.  But AP navigating through traffic and turning something from nothing caused him over to that side and Terry's defender peeled off and stopped AP.  Kept the gain to just 3.5 yards when he could've have much more.  Shout out on that play.  Interior O-Line with the push!  Flowers, Roullier, and Scherff all had great movement giving AP lanes to work with.

 

On the play where AP and Keenum had the botched hand-off, I don't think that was succeeding anyways.  Dolphins had an unblocked Edge guy that just burst down the line to whack AP.

 

Man, in the 4th quarter the Dolphins were selling out against the run.  Some aggressive run blitzes.  They regularly had 1 more guy in the box than we had blockers.  At one point they had 9 in the box.  5 down lineman and 4 off the line.  I would love some play action there, exploit the aggressive defense.

[SemperFi Skins]

29 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

Then why bother going 75 yards down the field for the TD, if your tanking just run all 3 downs and punt. 

 

HTTR 

It’d be too obvious...

[Skinsinparadise]

I was there, tempted to get one of them to lock in the memory

 

 

 

2 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

Until we get a competent QB in here, I cant judge any of the receivers too harshly.  Mclaurin is just so good, he defies the QB.  But I dont think Crowder would be any more productive than Quinn has been.

 

Shows how good McLaurin is, imagine him with a real QB

[RandyHolt]

30 minutes ago, SemperFi Skins said:

It’d be too obvious...

 

Also, you also only pull the plug, when you have to.  Let the players give their best effort, otherwise the coach will be facing a mutiny.

 

I assume Flores has his thinking in line with management. Or at least think that coaches should, which is a sign of a functioning organization. Management wanted to sell off; tank and rebuild through the draft. You win? You're fired. If the coach isn't in line with his boss, dysfunction and dissension prevails. #Redskins. 

 

It's ironic, that in hockey when a teams sells / rebuilds, they fill their roster with a lot of AHL grade low skill high effort players. Those same players will often outwork the fancy boys, and win games. Counter productive to tanking of course - point is, a coach cannot easily stifle effort.

 

Now it's all lotteries to counter all the obvious losing on purpose that teams do. Typically more towards the ends of the season. But football with only 16 games, playing their arch rival (us) for the top pick, it cannot be ruled out. Calling a play to a guy that didn't practice it, a play that had almost no chance - makes me think its high time the NFL implement a lottery.

 

For all their proper tanking and getting blown out this year, I will go ahead and speculate that facing us is the only time the coach had to get creative and tow the company line.  One play call in 6 weeks, that's it.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Ghedrick]

19 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I was there, tempted to get one of them to lock in the memory

 

 

 

 

Shows how good McLaurin is, imagine him with a real QB

Scary Terry is proving to be elite in many areas.First is his speed we all knew he was fast by his combine numbers but the guy has speed that translates to the field not always the case for players. Second route running, his route running is better than guys who been in the league for ten years and is elite. Third is his ability to catch contested balls. Fourth and most important the guy has an elite work ethic.The work ethic is exciting because you know he going to continue to improve. This guy has a chance to be one of the best WR in league over next few years. What a steal!!!

[kingdaddy]

8 hours ago, profusion said:

I don't feel like I can evaluate the Skins after this one, since they were playing a JV squad. 

 

The fourth quarter was an embarrassment.

 

The win will buy Keenum one more week, but that should really be it. Let's see what the kid's got.

If I were head coach, Keenum gets the starts next week and then the Thursday night in Minnesota with Haskins getting in both games at opportune times. SF and Minnesota are both gonna be tough defenses where I'd give Dwayne some snaps but not the entire game. After Minnesota, when we're 1-7, Haskins gets the final 8 games to showcase how good or not we think he's gonna be. 

[profusion]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

If I were head coach, Keenum gets the starts next week and then the Thursday night in Minnesota with Haskins getting in both games at opportune times. SF and Minnesota are both gonna be tough defenses where I'd give Dwayne some snaps but not the entire game. After Minnesota, when we're 1-7, Haskins gets the final 8 games to showcase how good or not we think he's gonna be. 

 

Sounds like a good plan. Let's hope someone in Ashburn is thinking like that.

[Mooka]

7 hours ago, markmills67 said:

Then why bother going 75 yards down the field for the TD, if your tanking just run all 3 downs and punt. 

 

HTTR 

 

The players and coaches aren't tanking. 

 

They're playing for new job somewhere. 

 

[RandyHolt]

Coaches cannot do the blatantly obvious. They would get pelted with 42 ounce beers jogging off the field and then be forced to go answer to it at the podium 10 minutes later. Tanking for them has to be far more subtle than their boss trading away all his best players for draft picks.

 

They are in the entertainment business. Coaches are not going to Neal Armstrong for an entire game. The league would not allow it if there aren't already bylaws in place. It's bad for the game. Coaches know damn well what management's goals are. The irony is rich, strip a roster down, and then  command the coach to win at all costs??

 

Fox should have PIP'd the Fins owners box immediately after their "heart breaking" loss.

 

If the Fins can secure the Toilet Bowl by week 14 or 15, I predict we will see them win 1.