FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

It's 100% this.  Allen is Turner's guy and Turner is Rivera's guy.

 

Our problem is that Turner is Rivera's guy.  He sucks at his job and we threw away Haskins for him.  It's something a bad organization would do.

Agreed there. Turner is not doing well. I think he’s painfully inexperienced. He may be capable, but I don’t think he’s ready to have the call sheet in his hand. 
 

He’s proving that he isn’t getting it done so far.

[Riggo#44]

2 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Haskins QBR weeks 1-4:  33.2
 

Allen QBR yesterday:  71.0

 

 

PFF Rankings

Haskins: 46.7

Allen 62.6

 

Allen will be great as our placeholder/back-up for our 1st round QB next year (hopefully one the football personnel actually want, and don't have to cut a deal for a better player later to appease massive egos all around).

[RichmondRedskin88]

2 minutes ago, Xameil said:

Wait....what?

Kirk's leash was REAL short....2 massive paydays short apparently.. 

 

Griffin outside of part of 2012 wasn’t good.  Yet excuse after excuse was made.  When Kirk made mistakes or had a bad game he got ripped limb from limb. I think he was overrated especially in his own mind but he was atleast somewhat competent.  

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

New President. New Coach. New GM. People keep wanting to give Haskins all the time in the world, but not the coaching staff or our pseudo GM? Am I missing something here?

 

New GM would require there to actually be a GM.  There isn't.  This coach has been ****ing the dog since he got hired, and it started with bringing along Turner and giving him a job he can't handle.  Trashing Haskins so that Turner could try and learn on the job is the most recent and most wasteful cost to date of making that terrible hire.  The kind of thing a functional team with a good GM and sensible chain of command in their football operations would have never allowed to happen.

[IrepDC]

1 minute ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

 

Griffin outside of part of 2012 wasn’t good.  Yet excuse after excuse was made.  When Kirk made mistakes or had a bad game he got ripped limb from limb. I think he was overrated especially in his own mind but he was atleast somewhat competent.  

The Griffin Cousin debates are re emerging?!

 

[Riggo#44]

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

This coach has been ****ing the dog

 

Wait--he did what to the dog?

 

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Trashing Haskins so that Turner could try and learn on the job is the most recent and most wasteful cost to date of making that terrible hire. 

 

Haskins trashed himself. He is not a victim. He was as bad a pick as Turner.

[Master Blaster]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

New GM would require there to actually be a GM.  There isn't.  This coach has been ****ing the dog since he got hired, and it started with bringing along Turner and giving him a job he can't handle.  Trashing Haskins so that Turner could try and learn on the job is the most recent and most wasteful cost to date of making that terrible hire.  The kind of thing a functional team with a good GM and sensible chain of command in their football operations would have never allowed to happen.

 

 

I'm with you.  The football team should have done all it could to be 7-9 instead of starting from scratch and using this as a building year for the future. 

[Conn]

7 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The question becomes is their metric for testing Haskins working? This is the same staff that was defending Apke and Martin and others. Its not like its a one shot thing. Its a process. So they're learning. i'm sure that there were some decisions that Haskins made in the games that he played that made them scratch their heads. Maybe they think he wasn't studying but maybe he studied the material and reached a different conclusion. Like he did in his press conferences when he talked about some of his mistakes and what he saw vs what was actually there. Maybe they disagreed about it or wanted him to be more aggressive and he thought that the opportunity wasn't there.

If the premise is “the coaches aren’t able to know if their players are preparing enough or the way they want and they can’t be sure why they aren’t getting the results they expect”, that’s just beyond the pale for me and I’m gonna leave it there. I proceed with the assumption that the coaches can and are able to appropriately gauge whether the players are doing what they ask, and whether what they’re asking for is the proper way to get results, and whether the results they’re seeing require re-thinking of their requirements. Otherwise, what’s the point? 

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Agreed there. Turner is not doing well. I think he’s painfully inexperienced. He may be capable, but I don’t think he’s ready to have the call sheet in his hand. 
 

He’s proving that he isn’t getting it done so far.

 

There isn't anyone else to call plays either.  Zampese was apparently a disaster as a playcaller in Cincinnati,  to the point where the locker room revolted on him and went to Marvin Lewis behind his back and got him fired.

 

Ron, being a defensive guy and having GM powers, made a disastrous mistake of putting the offense entirely in Turner's hands.  He needed to hire a superstar offensive coach to run that side of the ball, not take on a trainee whose dad was a friend.  The more I read about his time in Carolina, the worse I feel.  I missed it at the time, but the way Steve Smith roasted Ron Rivera for bringing Turner with him to D.C. feels bad.  That's not something you'd do unless you felt super strongly about Turner's ability.  There should have been alarm bells going off as this was playing out and I think our team was asleep at wheel.  Leadership vacuum in the front office.

6 minutes ago, Master Blaster said:

 

 

I'm with you.  The football team should have done all it could to be 7-9 instead of starting from scratch and using this as a building year for the future. 

 

Building for the future by hiring terrible coaches, trashing your recent first round QB pick, and having almost the entire roster of a 3-13 team get worse?

[Spaceman Spiff]

11 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

New GM would require there to actually be a GM.  There isn't.  This coach has been ****ing the dog since he got hired, and it started with bringing along Turner and giving him a job he can't handle.  Trashing Haskins so that Turner could try and learn on the job is the most recent and most wasteful cost to date of making that terrible hire.  The kind of thing a functional team with a good GM and sensible chain of command in their football operations would have never allowed to happen.

 

Haskins trashed himself.  

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

There isn't anyone else to call plays either.  Zampese was apparently a disaster as a playcaller in Cincinnati,  to the point where the locker room revolted on him and went to Marvin Lewis behind his back and got him fired.

 

Ron, being a defensive guy and having GM powers, made a disastrous mistake of putting the offense entirely in Turner's hands.  He needed to hire a superstar offensive coach to run that side of the ball, not take on a trainee whose dad was a friend.  The more I read about his time in Carolina, the worse I feel.  I missed it at the time, but the way Steve Smith roasted Ron Rivera for bringing Turner with him to D.C. feels bad.  That's not something you'd do unless you felt super strongly about Turner's ability.  There should have been alarm bells going off as this was playing out and I think our team was asleep at wheel.  Leadership vacuum in the front office.

 

Building for the future by hiring terrible coaches, trashing your recent first round QB pick, and having almost the entire roster of a 3-13 team get worse?

Im with you on the last paragraph except the Haskins part. Haskins damaged himself. Otherwise, you’re on point in my opinion. And those are valid concerns.

[Thinking Skins]

10 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Haskins QBR weeks 1-4:  33.2
 

Allen QBR yesterday:  71.0

 

This is not really that surprising, especially given our offense under Turner. QBR basically boils down to a question of how much a QB contributes to the points scored (really its EPA). During Haskins starts we scored 5 rushing TDs and 4 passing TDs and one by him - about 50% of the TDs. Compare that with Allen's games and he's been a part of all of our TDs - 1 rushing and 2 passing. Thats just looking at points scored, but its a 50% vs 100%.

 

If you go play by play we had games of 80, 117, 103 and 69 yards rushing with Haskins. Compare that with games of 38 and 86 yards rushing with Allen (and a lot of those yards coming from Allen) and it gives a better picture of this number. 

 

I don't really like using any analytic for the end all be all for rating players. QBR is based heavily on EPA and EPA itself is not some holy grail (just like completion percentage is not). For example, against our defense we've shown that any time a team gets a turnover its an automatic TD, so no matter where the turnover is given that EPAfter should be a -7 because they're going to get a TD after that. But since we have to base it on down distance and field position its going to grade a QB worse for a turnover in their own red zone vs in the opponents red zone. 

[Thinking Skins]

12 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

If the premise is “the coaches aren’t able to know if their players are preparing enough or the way they want and they can’t be sure why they aren’t getting the results they expect”, that’s just beyond the pale for me and I’m gonna leave it there. I proceed with the assumption that the coaches can and are able to appropriately gauge whether the players are doing what they ask, and whether what they’re asking for is the proper way to get results, and whether the results they’re seeing require re-thinking of their requirements. Otherwise, what’s the point? 

 

The point is we're in an age that we think we know everything because we've got these trackers and all these ways of measuring things and calculating things but in the end its a question of measuring things that are difficult to measure. Not just for you or me, but for anybody. We had Sheehan telling Cooley that Haskins has "it" and that Allen has a ceiling of a backup QB. How do you measure those things? So there are these unreleased statements about learning and I'm saying that learning is another concept that we don't understand. There is a question of can I regurgitate the information you just presented to me. Can I re-word it? But how do you know that I truly understand it? If we see the same defense and I make a different call than you, is it because I don't understand it? Is it because I don't want to make a mistake? Is it because I trust my teammates? 

 

i'm going down a theoretical path where I'm injecting a lot of myself into this and I really don't know what's going on with Rivera and Haskins. For all I know this could be just as the rumors say, I'm not going to rule that out. But I'm just not going to bury Haskins for these rumors either. 

[Master Blaster]

12 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

 

Building for the future by hiring terrible coaches, trashing your recent first round QB pick, and having almost the entire roster of a 3-13 team get worse?

 

 

By all accounts Haskins did this to himself.  Rivera said this year is about finding people who want to put in the work.  Apparently Haskins didn't.

There is nothing on offense besides McLaurin and Scherff.  And I'm not even sure Scherff is worth keeping around. 

 

The defense gave up just over 110 yards passing and 75 yards to the Giants leading rusher.  The defense is where it needs to be (I'd add a safety and LB in the offseason).

 

If the offense can get to a point where they at least play complimentary football the rest of the team will look even better.

[RichmondRedskin88]

42 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

The Griffin Cousin debates are re emerging?!

 

This isn’t a debate about who was better.  It’s just fact that Kirk took way more heat than Griffin.  

[Thinking Skins]

Over the season, here are the 10 biggest plays from the team (by EPA difference): 

 

Dwayne Haskins pass complete short left to Antonio Gibson for 40 yards (tackle by Jimmy Smith) (EPA: 0.89 - 4.84, 3.95 diff)

Dwayne Haskins pass complete short left to Dontrelle Inman for 11 yards, touchdown (EPA: 3.12 - 7, 3.88 diff)

Dwayne Haskins pass complete deep left to Terry McLaurin for 39 yards (tackle by Khalil Dorsey) (EPA: 2.79 - 6.51, 3.72 diff)

Dwayne Haskins pass complete short left to J.D. McKissic for 26 yards (tackle by Malcolm Smith and Terrance Mitchell) (EPA: 2.61 - 6.28, 3.67 diff)

Dwayne Haskins pass complete short middle to Terry McLaurin for 24 yards, touchdown (EPA: 3.43 - 7m 3.57 diff)

Kyle Allen pass complete deep left to Cam Sims for 22 yards, touchdown (EPA: 3.56 - 7, 3.44 diff)

Dwayne Haskins pass complete short right to Terry McLaurin for 33 yards (tackle by Terrance Mitchell and Denzel Ward) (EPA: 0.43 - 3.84, 3.41 diff)

Kyle Allen pass complete short right to Dontrelle Inman for 15 yards (tackle by Jabrill Peppers) (EPA: 0.59 - 3.91, 3.32 diff)

Dwayne Haskins pass complete short right to Logan Thomas for 4 yards (tackle by Karl Joseph) (EPA: 2.99 - 6.28, 3.29 diff)

Dwayne Haskins pass complete deep right to Steven Sims for 17 yards (tackle by Avonte Maddox) (EPA: 3.82 - 6.74, 2.92 diff)

 

This gives us an idea of how the team is doing in terms of big plays and things like QBR. 

 

Here are the 5 worse by the same metric. 

Kyle Allen sacked by Kyler Fackrell for -8 yards. Kyle Allen fumbles (forced by Kyler Fackrell), recovered by Tae Crowder at WAS-43 and returned for 43 yards, touchdown

Dwayne Haskins sacked by Myles Garrett for -10 yards. Dwayne Haskins fumbles (forced by Myles Garrett), recovered by Myles Garrett at WAS-41 (tackle by Geron Christian)

Dwayne Haskins pass deep middle intended for Logan Thomas is intercepted by Karl Joseph at CLE-16 and returned for 49 yards. Karl Joseph fumbles (forced by Morgan Moses), recovered by Tavierre Thomas at WAS-28

Dwayne Haskins sacked by Jordan Phillips for -3 yards. Dwayne Haskins fumbles (forced by Jordan Phillips), recovered by Chandler Jones at ARI-12 (tackle by Morgan Moses)

Kyle Allen pass deep left intended for Terry McLaurin is intercepted by James Bradberry at WAS-46 and returned for 19 yards

[CobraCommander]

The story is that Turner wanted to go with Haskins right?

But a quarter of the season in either Turner and/or Rivera soured on him. But it's up to the HC to make the call to bench him. 

 

This kind of reeks of Rivera saying "told you so" to Turner and then having to save face himself by benching him. Turner comes off as inexperienced and feckless. Rivera doesn't fare much better. This is a perfect storm of poor management.

 

Was this an issue in Carolina? Was Ron always like this? Seems to me like he really needs a GM to make personnel calls.

 

[Silvernon]

44 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Haskins trashed himself.  

So much this.

 

Those arguing for Haskins not getting a fair shake are painting themselves as poor evaluators of talent or wearing the darkest tint of rose colored glasses. 

 

Can't wait for this guy to be off the team. 

[Xameil]

1 hour ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

 

Griffin outside of part of 2012 wasn’t good.  Yet excuse after excuse was made.  When Kirk made mistakes or had a bad game he got ripped limb from limb. I think he was overrated especially in his own mind but he was atleast somewhat competent.  

Hmmm...I seem to remember things slightly differently...

Maybe its because I'm not located down there.

[Llevron]

15 minutes ago, RichmondRedskin88 said:

This isn’t a debate about who was better.  It’s just fact that Kirk took way more heat than Griffin.  

 

its 2020 no one cares seriously yall gotta get over it 

[philibusters]

22 minutes ago, Silvernon said:

So much this.

 

Those arguing for Haskins not getting a fair shake are painting themselves as poor evaluators of talent or wearing the darkest tint of rose colored glasses. 

 

Can't wait for this guy to be off the team. 

 

I think you are misunderestanding the argument.  The argument that a lot of people who don't think Haskins was given a fair shot is that when Haskins was drafted he was a project.  We understood that.  Its the same as say Trey Lance who would be a project.  When  you take a project they are not going to be starter level in the first year or two.   Haskins actually looked better than expected at teh end of last year and while he looked like he regressed a bit in the first four games this year, I would have like to see him developed.   We are like a 10 year we want to do this, until its not as fun as we thought, then that.  We lose interest so quickly.   If you are going to draft project, patience and perservence are required.

[Going Commando]

7 minutes ago, Florgon79 said:

The story is that Turner wanted to go with Haskins right?

But a quarter of the season in either Turner and/or Rivera soured on him. But it's up to the HC to make the call to bench him. 

 

This kind of reeks of Rivera saying "told you so" to Turner and then having to save face himself by benching him. Turner comes off as inexperienced and feckless. Rivera doesn't fare much better. This is a perfect storm of poor management.

 

Was this an issue in Carolina? Was Ron always like this? Seems to me like he really needs a GM to make personnel calls.

 

 

Nah, Allen is Turner's guy.  Turner is the reason Carolina signed Allen as a UDFA.  He banged the table for Allen there, and I'm sure he did it here too.  Allen is his pet project.  Guarantee the decision to bench Haskins for Allen was Turner's call, and I think Ron has delegated offensive decision making to him and has been trusting him with way too much power.  My read is that Turner is drowning and needed Allen just to have some semblance of familiarity and trust there because the offense has been a disaster, the job is way too big for him right now, and he's not capable of developing a new QB and learning on the job himself at the same time.

 

We burned up Haskins for Turner's on the job training.  It really sucks.  Rivera is trying to wear a ton of different hats right now and it isn't working, but there is absolutely no one else in position to step in and competently take over the leadership burden.  The FO is a total vacuum in leadership, and the coaching staff around him is weak.  It was a dicey situation from the beginning, but then he gets seriously ill and has to go through very debilitating treatments and now its an impossible situation.  He can't even step away to focus on his health because there is no one else just to keep the program running.

[SoCalSkins]

We might need to get a hold of the bingo caller soon...

[IrepDC]

32 minutes ago, Silvernon said:

So much this.

 

Those arguing for Haskins not getting a fair shake are painting themselves as poor evaluators of talent or wearing the darkest tint of rose colored glasses. 

 

Can't wait for this guy to be off the team. 

To be fair, only 2 other 1st round QBs in history were given less games to prove themselves so saying he didn't get a fair shake, while debatable, isn't the craziest assessment.

[RichmondRedskin88]

28 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

its 2020 no one cares seriously yall gotta get over it 

Ok then ppl should stop repeating history then..... Haskins gets a pass by media, message board tough guys, etc while every play Allen does gets put under a microscope.  News flash Allen is starting because Haskins had like what two good games?  Yet every stupid social media WFT analyst wannabe act like this about Haskins vs Allen.  Back ups only take the job when the starter isn’t getting it done.  If Haskins was rolling with 300 yard games every week and he got pulled every person would go WTF at the WFT.   I’ve seen Allen get shredded more than Haskins.  And yes like I said I chalk that up to other factors than football as DGF and I said earlier.