FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[volsmet]

47 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

@volsmet is creating now a league wide buzz.

 

I was watching NFL Network just now, they talked Haskins-Tua.  Terrell Davis said he would absolutely take Tua in the Redskins shoes saying he likes Haskins but Tua is the clear better QB upside wise. 

 

It is a movement — perhaps industrial, perhaps bowel. 

36 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You and volsmet are the Lennon-McCartney duo pushing the consider Tua at #2 narrative.😀

 

I am behind the curve albeit I was pushing Tua hard for years now including even going to see him play live.  😀    Like you, I am not sure I'd actually do it, but I think no question I'd put some serious thought into it.   It's a good sign to me that Rivera-Kyle have all options on the table -- I don't want a FO married to ANY player out of emotion, the past, nostalgia or anything -- just be clinical and make the best decision you can.  Belichick like. 

If we get one more we can be the cranberries. 

[volsmet]

27 minutes ago, skinsmania123 said:

This is a great thread and I respect the opinions.  But I admit I am 100% all in for Chase Young.  And I think Rivera is being amazingly transparent about Haskins. He will get his opportunity but will have competition.

 

For once I just want this team to choose the player who  has never had an injury.  Historically we just haven't done all that well with players that have had significant, ah hell any injuries in college. They just come to the Redskins and get injured again. I am so sick of it.  

 

One thing that is off the charts are the number of quality and I mean quality receivers in this draft.  I hope we snag a good one in the 4th round.

Rarely does the safe move bring with it so much up side. 

[Skin'emAlive]

6 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Now we're cooking with a charcoal grill.

 

The guys who have won without being a top tier quarterback are generally top tier technicians and minds. These are two places that Haskins is lacking.

 

Peyton Manning, even as a horrible physical QB, had guys who would run through walls for him and gave his offense a chance because of how much smarter he was than everyone else.

 

Trent Dilfer won because he was the type of QB the Ravens needed and his teammates believed in him not to screw it up. And he's smart as hell and understands the game. 

 

Dak is a pretty high ceiling for Haskins, in my opinion. 

This here is what I’m talking about. A majority of your posts in this subject revolve around the idea that Haskins is not good and probably never will be because of his mental acuity. But then dance around the notion that you are taking a hard stance on this label while miring in ambiguity. I think that’s bogus for a myriad of reasons:

 

1. It’s far too soon to judge any young rookie QB Unless his name was Brandon Weeden. 

2. There were multiple reasons for Haskins to fail including: 

 

A: coach trying to win now to save his job and resorting to the ghost of McCoy. 
B: all three starting wrs were rookies, behind an interim OL head coach, also coaching for his job. 

C. The top LT in the game decides to hold out the entire season, crippling the ol

D. The starting Tight ends both go down on IR

E. The starting running back gets injured and is replaced with a 34 year old relic. 
F. He came into this season 3rd on the depth chart and hardly had any reps in practice. 
 

no one looks good in this situation. 
 

3. The idea that he will never probably never be good because he doesn’t love the game is a questionable observation considering he has been throwing the football since he could hold a football. He’s been raised to think of the game and the nuances far before many others do. I think burnout could have an effect here, though I believe this to be too soon to judge. In any case, You can have a love for competition without the necessity to love the sport. 
 

[KDawg]

10 minutes ago, Skin'emAlive said:

 

 

This here is what I’m talking about. A majority of your posts in this subject revolve around the idea that Haskins is not good and probably never will be because of his mental acuity. But then dance around the notion that you are taking a hard stance on this label while miring in ambiguity. I think that’s bogus for a myriad of reasons:

 

1. It’s far too soon to judge any young rookie QB Unless his name was Brandon Weeden. 

2. There were multiple reasons for Haskins to fail including: 

 

A: coach trying to win now to save his job and resorting to the ghost of McCoy. 
B: all three starting wrs were rookies

C. The top LT in the game decides to hold out the entire season, crippling the ol

D. The starting Tight ends both go down on IR

E. The starting running back gets injured and is replaced with a 34 year old relic. 
F. He came into this season 3rd on the depth chart and hardly had any reps in practice. 
 

no one looks good in this situation. 
 

3. The idea that he will never probably never be good because he doesn’t love the game is a questionable observation considering he has been throwing the football since he could hold a football. He’s been raised to think of the game and the nuances far before many others do. I think burnout could have an effect here, though I believe this to be too soon to judge. In any case, You can have a love for competition without the necessity to love the sport. 
 

 

1. Yes. It is. Which is why I haven't. I've judged him on what we've seen and I've said he can turn it around in nearly every post.

 

2. A: Correct. And Haskins wasn't ready to play.

B: Correct. But he may have wound up in a better spot for that.

C : Correct.

D : Correct.

E: Correct, though I will say I think that's discounting Adrian Peterson.

F: Other quarterbacks are able to do it because they prepare to do it. It's not a secret that he was upset with being the backup and made it known. It's been reported. I don't make this stuff up. He wasn't getting reps, he also wasn't putting in the effort.

 

3. It's not a questionable observation. It's based on a quote. From him. I'll talk that back if I hear that reported quote isn't accurate. 

 

You don't love for competition if you fold when you aren't the man, for the record. And he did that.

 

Are you arguing that Haskins has great technique and has a stellar film study acumen (which is what I mean by mind, to be clear)? Okay. Fine. Where's the proof? Where's the reports of his study habits? Where's the film of his technique?

 

I call it like I see it.

 

The guy has athletic ability. He can turn it around quickly. Which is what Ron Rivera is trying to get him to do.

 

You don't have to be a "hater" when pointing these things out. I call everything like I see it. You've been here a long time. I've never not said things exactly as I see them. I'm not going to start with Dwayne Haskins. 

 

Right now, I do not believe in Haskins. That doesn't mean I think he's a bust or a failure. Just he has a lot to prove. 

 

As far as your first paragraph, what label am I taking a hard stance on while miring in ambiguity?

 

Nothing I say about him is ambiguous. And I haven't given him a label. 

 

You don't have to agree with my take, but don't accuse me of being a baseless hater like you seem to be trying to do. Again, I back each of my points up. Whether you agree or not is totally irrelevant. I don't just sling poo at the wall. In game day threads, when he did something great, I was one of the first to post about what a great play it was. I'm not anti-Haskins, as you believe me to be. 

 

I just haven't seen anything for me to believe he is or can be the guy at the moment. But I have never, not once, said he is absolutely a bust. Not a single time. 

[Riggo#44]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Love Ruggs.

 

Would we call him Ruggo?

[volsmet]

 

 

[Skin'emAlive]

Would I consider Haskins a technician? Nah. And I don’t think he will ever exude  the perfect form necessary to achieve that label. But I don’t believe he is bad at film study, rather a young guy who was in a really really toxic situation. Everyone deals with this differently. 
 

AP is a phenom, but shouldn’t be THE offense right now. Unfortunately, that’s where we were as a team. 
 

I’m not saying you are a baseless hater. I’m saying that the foundation of your argument is based off insufficient evidence, and pretty sure you would agree on that. I think your observations are often quite grounded ( and not saying that mine are because I can be aggressive on particular players and coaches with a large amount of tape), which is why I don’t understand the hold on this particular narrative. Perhaps I am mixing some posts with regards to the bust label. So I’ll walk that back. 
 

For years I labeled Kirk a bust. But even that was based off two seasons of film. ( of course I held on for years with Campbell and a season too long with Griff... but I that’s a different story). Quarterback is the most difficult position to play. The kid needs time. It’s too early to truly know anything about the guy. 

[KDawg]

That’s a good post. 
 

I haven’t labeled him BECAUSE he hasn’t been at it long enough. His current sample isn’t up to snuff. Even among other rookies. I haven’t liked the way he’s carried himself. 
 

But those are all things that a man can grow into. I won’t label the guy. He’s a young man coming into a tough situation.

 

I don’t love where he is and I am not comfortable with him as the quarterback right now. But I am not of the mind that he CAN’T do it. 

[HTTRDynasty]

8 hours ago, volsmet said:

That FO/C combination has been a disaster, but the roster is appealing. It was more than a little surprising to see how lost Baker looked last year after the brilliant rookie season he had... he was atrocious in ‘19, they need to remedy that line, obviously. 

 

The OL definitely played a big part.  Hiring Bill Callahan and attacking the position group in the draft and FA will solve that.  

 

The bigger part IMO was the coaching.  It's an open secret that Ken Zampese was the brains behind the success of the 2018 passing offense - both in terms of coaching up Baker mechanically and in designing the base and 3rd down passing offense.  Freddie Kitchens felt threatened, and after getting promoted to HC on the backs of his offensive assistants, promptly fired Zampese and the OL coach - Bob Wylie - who had the Browns OL ranked 2nd overall by PFF that year.  He replaced Zampese with Ryan Lindley, who had never been a QB coach before.  

 

Promoting Kitchens to HC was the beginning of the end for Baker and the Browns in 2019.  It takes a unique man to get fired at HC after only one year on the job.  Kitchens goes down in history as one of the few to actually pull it off.

[volsmet]

For those of you against Tua, are you against a QB altogether or is it just that you don’t view Tua in the Peyton/Luck prospect category? Would any of you trade #2 for Rodgers, Watson, or Wilson? I imagine everyone here would trade #2 for Mahomes & many would for Lamar. 
 

 

[HTTRDynasty]

1 minute ago, volsmet said:

For those of you against Tua, are you against a QB altogether or is it just that you don’t view Tua in the Peyton/Luck prospect category? Would any of you trade #2 for Rodgers, Watson, or Wilson? I imagine everyone here would trade #2 for Mahomes & many would for Lamar. 

 

I would take Trevor Lawrence if he was in this draft and lasted to pick #2.  Otherwise, I think we're better with the combo of Haskins + Young over any other option.

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, volsmet said:

For those of you against Tua, are you against a QB altogether or is it just that you don’t view Tua in the Peyton/Luck prospect category? Would any of you trade #2 for Rodgers, Watson, or Wilson? I imagine everyone here would trade #2 for Mahomes & many would for Lamar. 
 

 

 

I would trust the staff if they told me he was Mahomes/Lamar level talent and sit back and see if he proves it. But the honest Truth is that i dont see that myself (and didnt in either of the other two guys) so i wouldnt want to spend the resources if i didnt have to. 

 

And to me at that position we dont, yet. I still dream of building a team that can be run by any QB over have one that can be run by a particular QB and i would prioritize that. Tua doesnt help with that goal. 

[volsmet]

2 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

I would take Trevor Lawrence if he was in this draft and lasted to pick #2.  Otherwise, I think we're better with the combo of Haskins + Young over any other option.

I agree with that. To draft one a year after taking Haskins the guy has to be truly special. I don’t care about my own opinion on DH or Tua, I’m just talking philosophically through this thread, the qb position impacts everyone - if you can upgrade without spending big then I think you need to do it. Great scouts differ on QBs all the time, one individuals grade on a prospect is just a piece of the evaluation, so I don’t care at all when we differ on who we think will be better, what I get into is the philosophical debate with regard to spending/drafting/etc.
 

If your organization loves Mahomes, you give up two firsts that could have helped Smith, who led you to the playoffs, & you get Mahomes. The opportunity to get a special QB is rare, there aren’t many in the league, I couldn’t pass on a QB if I was the GM and my organization (FO & coaches) believed strongly in the prospect. Even if I didn’t like the guy a lot myself, I’d have no problem putting my name on a guy the people I trust believe in. 
 

Tua v Young is fascinating. 

[HTTRDynasty]

8 minutes ago, volsmet said:

I agree with that. To draft one a year after taking Haskins the guy has to be truly special. I don’t care about my own opinion on DH or Tua, I’m just talking philosophically through this thread, the qb position impacts everyone - if you can upgrade without spending big then I think you need to do it. Great scouts differ on QBs all the time, one individuals grade on a prospect is just a piece of the evaluation, so I don’t care at all when we differ on who we think will be better, what I get into is the philosophical debate with regard to spending/drafting/etc.
 

If your organization loves Mahomes, you give up two firsts that could have helped Smith, who led you to the playoffs, & you get Mahomes. The opportunity to get a special QB is rare, there aren’t many in the league, I couldn’t pass on a QB if I was the GM and my organization (FO & coaches) believed strongly in the prospect. Even if I didn’t like the guy a lot myself, I’d have no problem putting my name on a guy the people I trust believe in. 
 

Tua v Young is fascinating. 

 

[mistertim]

I think part of my worry about taking a QB is knowing that part of what makes a QB end up in the upper echelon is the situation he's drafted into, who he's around, and who his coaches are. And maybe it's just me being jaded but I always wince when it comes to how we've developed QBs. We just seem to suck at it. Now we have a new coaching staff that's hopefully much better, but I'm still cautious with my optimism.

 

I don't think Rodgers would necessarily have been the Rodgers we know if he hadn't been in the situation he was where he had time to develop and had Mike McCarthy come in and start to work with him in his "Quarterback School" where he changed his mechanics and improved a bunch of other things before taking the reins. I don't think Mahomes would necessarily be the Mahomes we know if he hadn't gone to KC where he sat for a year and got intensely tutored by Alex Smith and worked a ton with the coaching staff to improve his game. 

 

If we drafted Tua would we develop him properly? Would we be willing to let him develop as opposed to imposing an expectation of immediate success on him? Haskins started all of 14 games in college and many are already losing patience with him after only 7 starts in the NFL and calling him a bust. 

 

The other part of my reticence on Tua is that I don't really see him in the Luck/Lawrence category. I think he's a great talent and I love watching him play but I've just never seen him as that level of "can't miss" NFL QB prospect that only comes along once in a decade or so. But that's just my opinion and a completely novice one at that, so if the coaching staff said they truly believed that he was that level of prospect and they felt that he'd be an elite QB in the NFL then I'd trust them. I might not necessarily like the decision at first, but I'd reserve serious judgement until I saw him play a decent amount. 

 

And of course his recent injury and injury history are worrisome to me. I wonder if he'll be able to take the punishment of the NFL as a somewhat undersized guy and stay healthy. 

[volsmet]

Alex Smith training/advising/mentoring both DH & Tua, and then reporting to Snyder ... would be ...

 

 

[arftech]

6 hours ago, volsmet said:

For those of you against Tua, are you against a QB altogether or is it just that you don’t view Tua in the Peyton/Luck prospect category? Would any of you trade #2 for Rodgers, Watson, or Wilson? I imagine everyone here would trade #2 for Mahomes & many would for Lamar. 
 

 

I'm against drafting Tua at 2 because of his injury concerns but the kid has all of the intangibles to be great.   

[Est.1974]

9 hours ago, volsmet said:

Rarely does the safe move bring with it so much up side. 

agreed, that’s why if I’m Miami I’m going all in up the board for Tua.

 

i said a couple of days back, why accumulate 90mil in cap space and 23 draft picks over 2 years to sit back and settle  for second best.

 

Or they drop back and go all in for a QB in 2021. 
 

I hope our FO have an aggressive approach in FA and  the draft, in whatever form that takes.

[COWBOY-KILLA-]

I'd say this, if Ron and the Skins FO have any issue or doubts with Haskins at all, any at all, be it his work ethic, mental acuity, demeanor, character, talent, or sock preference, THERE IS NO WAY THEY PASS ON TUA. None. Just too good of a prospect to pass up if you aren't sold on the player you have.......So if we do decide on Chase or a trade down, I hope to high heaven we can stop with the constant doubting and prove it to me mentality when it comes to DH.. That we put the same type of energy and fervor into believing and getting fully behind the kid. We'll see how we really feel about DH come April.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

ISo if we do decide on Chase or a trade down, I hope to high heaven we can stop with the constant doubting and prove it to me mentality when it comes to DH.. That we put the same type of energy and fervor into believing and getting fully behind the kid. We'll see how we really feel about DH come April.

 

I think everyone here is fully behind Haskins but that's different than ignoring criticism and focusing purely on the sunshine.   On the Kirk thread, I was considered if anything one of the pollyanna guys relatively speaking about him but still ripped him from time to time.  Others would destroy him.    Campbell I recall people were up and down about.  It comes IMO with the turf.  This organization isn't brimming with success stories with the QBs they acquire or draft so I think that brings some of the cynicism, too. 

 

 I don't see any of it though as personal or cruel but just football talk.  At least for most of us.   On the draft thread for example, we go pros and cons about players we like, even Tua.  😀   If I turn on my TV and radio and hear 10 different people say the same thing about a prospect or Redskins player, good or bad, I'll say something about it because I presume there is something to it or at a minimum this is a conversation out there about said player. 

 

Love Tua but the injuries is my one pause.  I'd need to be reassured from the team doctors.

 

As for Haskins, I am in the camp that all these local and national reporters (Garafalo talked about it yesterday some more) aren't just making up the concerns in the building about Haskins work ethic.  It's about as obvious as it gets that it is/was? a concern.  The coaches-Doug have played off of the same theme so it made it all obvious.  On a scale of 10 out of 10, I put it at a 10 as there at least is something to it.  Keim among others hasn't all of a sudden turned into some wild rumormonger who just makes up what people in that building have told him.  Thus I took it seriously.

 

Having said that, as Galdi talked about this morning, Rivera-Kyle seems to be communicating the message that Haskins got their concern and message received so he's going to town.  If so, as I said when mentioning all the things that were being said, I thought it was actually good that Haskins hears all of that stuff because I do see him as a very competitive dude and that would help fuel him.  And I don't think the dude is lazy but a talented player who likely hasn't had to kill it in the off hours to excel in the past.

 

Hopefully they see Haskins as the dude.  He's got the talent.  I've been salivating for Chase Young  big time since last October.  

[LD0506]

Haskins is 22

 

I'd love some of y'all to share the wonders of your maturity @ 22

 

Personally, I won't be doing that

 

Haskins strikes me as one of those very self aware types that loves the attention and needs an environment where he can excel. He CAN excel, we know this because he did that @ OSU. That's not a criticism or character flaw, just an observation. Some people are glad to roll along without the limelight, some just flourish in it. I feel like it's part ego, part upbringing, part selfish buzz of "look at me!", none of which is intrinsically bad, it's a question of what you do with it. Many people of this type are motivated by it, feed off that need for speed and thrive when given it.

 

I'd make it clear that this year is a make it or break it season, give the kid the resources he needs and let him prove it. I'd even go back to Meyer (who we saw in TheDan's booth) and pick his brains if they haven't already (which I suspect they have) and do whatever's necessary without over committing the future of the franchise. Rivera strikes me as the kind of guy that can do just this, he gets a ton of praise for the way he relates to players while still inspiring them to max out their commitment to being a team player.

 

I just feel it is too soon and too costly to just jettison Haskins and spin the carny wheel on the next kid you'll demand produce no matter the context or support. 

 

IMO many people get hyper-focused on individuals, try to take them out of context/consider them in a vacuum when football success is predicated on team in a way that other sports are not. Haskins can be an important part of team success if the team around him succeeds, just plugging in Tua or Lawrence or the second coming of Sammy Baugh cannot magically dictate the outcome.

 

I get it, we've been lost in the desert for twenty years, suffering from following this team, haunted by Joe Gibbs and his success.......... I have too. I want the Skins to be "The SKINS!!" again, a team to be feared, a throttling defense, a team that others would rather avoid. That cannot happen with one player, ANY one player. I've said it before, we don't need a rebuild, we need a build. We need a fresh brick-by-brick /board-by-board construction from the ground up. It's way too soon to be picking out bathroom fixtures or paint colors. In Ron I Trust (until I don't 😆)

[KDawg]

11 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

 

 

IMO many people get hyper-focused on individuals, try to take them out of context/consider them in a vacuum when football success is predicated on team in a way that other sports are not. Haskins can be an important part of team success if the team around him succeeds, just plugging in Tua or Lawrence or the second coming of Sammy Baugh cannot magically dictate the outcome.

 

 

This is where you and I depart. I think plugging in a quarterback who gets "it" can absolutely change the tide for this team in a hurry.

 

Now...

 

Maybe that quarterback IS Dwayne Haskins. I haven't seen it. But that doesn't mean it's not happening. We don't see the stuff behind closed doors. 

 

But it's also possible it isn't.

 

Here's my bottom line: If there are doubts on the current quarterback (doubts meaning you don't think he can lead you to a successful campaign and likely will struggle), they need to find a quarterback that can. If there are no doubts on the current quarterback, you move forward. Notice I made those all general terms, though. It's not specific to Dwayne Haskins.

 

I support Dwayne Haskins when he steps on the field. 

 

But as to @COWBOY-KILLA-'s point, I still won't believe until I see/hear the great things that are expected of him. And then, when those come in, I bet you won't find a guy who supports him more than I do. 

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

 

I get it, we've been lost in the desert for twenty years, suffering from following this team, haunted by Joe Gibbs and his success.......... I have too. I want the Skins to be "The SKINS!!" again, a team to be feared, a throttling defense, a team that others would rather avoid. That cannot happen with one player, ANY one player. I've said it before, we don't need a rebuild, we need a build. We need a fresh brick-by-brick /board-by-board construction from the ground up. It's way too soon to be picking out bathroom fixtures or paint colors. In Ron I Trust (until I don't 😆)

 

It's a good post and I think your guesses about what type of dude Haskins is -- is likely spot on or close enough.  And I do agree people's maturity at 22 isn't always there. 

 

But I think people are reading too deep about the criticism element of Haskins maturity.  At least for me, it's not so much about my personal feelings about it.  I don't see it first hand.  I even talked about the few times I did meet Haskins first hand and found him to be a really cool dude.  It's that according to numerous local reporters and some national reporters they heard that people within Redskins Park (both among the FO and coaches) have concerns about his maturity.  And some of the coaches-FO statements in the past seem to hint at the same idea.   It's not about fan concerns but people in that building.  Since these guys are his bosses, that makes the topic relevant IMO.  

 

And I agree one player isn't the be all and end all.  But the QB position is darn close to being that.  We are up there with the Browns when it comes to swings and misses at the position.  At the moment, I lean optimistic about Haskins but don't see him as a shoo in slam dunk answer.   The only reason I think the Tua issue is a bit pronounced now is we are in a rare situation to take a prospect that some consider as elite.  We really are never in a spot like that.  You have to be picking more or less #2 or #1 to do that.   As bad as this team is, we are typically not that high up in the draft.   Should we take Tua?  If anything I lean no.  But do I think if Haskins doesn't make it, no biggie, the odds are we will be right where we are now with lets say Lawrence or Fields landing at our pick in 2021 -- if history is prologue, the odds that it goes down that way is slim. 

[dyst]

Clearly they are not sold on Haskins and a QB is definitely in play. The way they talk about him is positive with an always side of “caution”. 

[Skin'emAlive]

9 hours ago, volsmet said:

For those of you against Tua, are you against a QB altogether or is it just that you don’t view Tua in the Peyton/Luck prospect category? Would any of you trade #2 for Rodgers, Watson, or Wilson? I imagine everyone here would trade #2 for Mahomes & many would for Lamar. 
 

 

I wouldn’t say I’m against Tua. He very well could be a great qb. But he’s 2/3” shorter, and 20lbs lighter than Dwayne, and has shown his body is not ready for the physical nature of the game right now. Haskins has also shown that he’s surprisingly more mobile than his college tape appeared to show. So I wouldn’t hold Tua above him in that regard either. Though that isn’t the real reason that I’m not taking him at 2. 

 

2019: 

#15: Dwayne Haskins

#26: Montez Sweat

 

2020:

#2: Chase Young
 

That's a great back to back draft, and it builds on our strength (DL), while allowing our FO to find diamonds ( Mclaurin/Sims) to help out a young qb with lower expectations on his shoulders due to the lower draft position.