FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[Thinking Skins]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

It isn't set up for that because that's not who he is as a quarterback. In college he threw screens, short passes inside the numbers and relied on a quick release and getting playmakers the ball in space. I don't know why people expected Haskins to become a downfield attack guy. He never showed a penchant to really do that. He showed the ability to catch and throw lasers to his guys in space. Which, coincidentally, is what he's good at with Washington. 

 

 

This gets to what I've been talking with SIP about. I'm not trying to make him into something he's not. He can throw that slant to TMac well and he throws some more underneath well. He set the SEC BIG TEN record for TD passes in a season doing that so yeah, I'd think he can do that in the NFL while he builds his other skills. Maybe they will never develop but we have seen he can do some things here in the league. 

 

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

He... led his team... to victory... from behind? C'mon. Yes, he helped notch points. So he was a big part of that victory... but it wasn't the defensive LINE that led the team to victory? It wasn't Moreau and Moreland's big turnovers that led the team to victory? It was Haskins on a short field with the Eagles on the ropes?

 

You're parsing my words. I'm not saying he did it solely and without help. But if we're going to look at his career log, its going to say come from behind wins +1 for that game. What I'm saying is that We've seen in all three games that Haskins can lead this team to TD drives. After the Eagles game, the complaint was that he couldn't do it on a full field. After the Cardinals game it was that he couldn't do it when they weren't behind by double digits. The Browns game he did it to take the lead twice, once in the 4th quarter. So he is showing that he has something in this league. 

 

Just for contrast, one of the biggest problems under late Gruden (I'm talking 2018 and 2019) was that he couldn't get TDs in the red zone. That's something that Haskins has been doing well - scoring TDs instead of relying on FGs. 

 

But it seems like I'm arguing an impossible thing because some are set that he will never develop and all I'm saying is that he's shown enough to be given more time. If you disagree thats your right. I just disagree. I took a break from this place because it was taking too much of my time. I came back to defend Haskins, but its getting back to taking too much of my time again finding new ways to say the same things. 

 

We will eventually see if he pans out. 

[KDawg]

I think you need to read my posts better. I have never, not once, said he can’t do it.

 

I’ve said he hasn’t, hasn’t shown the ability to. But things click sometimes. 
 

Baltimore is a big game for him. It can either give him a ton of confidence to move him forward or send him into a spiral.

[SoCalSkins]

23 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

This gets to what I've been talking with SIP about. I'm not trying to make him into something he's not. He can throw that slant to TMac well and he throws some more underneath well. He set the SEC record for TD passes in a season doing that so yeah, I'd think he can do that in the NFL while he builds his other skills. Maybe they will never develop but we have seen he can do some things here in the league. 

 

You're parsing my words. I'm not saying he did it solely and without help. But if we're going to look at his career log, its going to say come from behind wins +1 for that game. What I'm saying is that We've seen in all three games that Haskins can lead this team to TD drives. After the Eagles game, the complaint was that he couldn't do it on a full field. After the Cardinals game it was that he couldn't do it when they weren't behind by double digits. The Browns game he did it to take the lead twice, once in the 4th quarter. So he is showing that he has something in this league. 

 

Just for contrast, one of the biggest problems under late Gruden (I'm talking 2018 and 2019) was that he couldn't get TDs in the red zone. That's something that Haskins has been doing well - scoring TDs instead of relying on FGs. 

 

But it seems like I'm arguing an impossible thing because some are set that he will never develop and all I'm saying is that he's shown enough to be given more time. If you disagree thats your right. I just disagree. I took a break from this place because it was taking too much of my time. I came back to defend Haskins, but its getting back to taking too much of my time again finding new ways to say the same things. 

 

We will eventually see if he pans out. 

You are defending him because you want to be right. Not because you want the team to succeed. Same way you defended JC. Your past history defines your likelihood of being correct in your evaluations. You have miserably failed previously and are well on your way in repeating it. So maybe use your user name and think “hey I defended JC the same way and I lost all credibility and looked silly maybe I should be careful to avoid doing that again” 

[Leonard Washington]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Baltimore is a big game for him. It can either give him a ton of confidence to move him forward or send him into a spiral.

This is the type of game that should fuel his competitive fire.  I liked how they exploited match ups in the last game and hopefully can build on it this week.  I want to see Haskins+someone else takeover.

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

You are defending him because you want to be right. Not because you want the team to succeed. Same way you defended JC. Your past history defines your likelihood of being correct in your evaluations. You have miserably failed previously and are well on your way in repeating it. So maybe use your user name and think “hey I defended JC the same way and I lost all credibility and looked silly maybe I should be careful to avoid doing that again” 

 

Well we disagree there too. I still think JC could have been a good QB here if he had a decent coach. HE started 5-3 with Gibbs and 6-2 with Zorn. Both time the team had losing streaks but he could have been a part of a good team here. Instead Shanny/Danny wanted a new toy and traded for McNabb. I was also on here in favor of Ramsey but they wanted a new toy and got Brunell and his one good year. 

 

Its whatever though. You can like or not like who you want. This place isn't what it used to be for me. 

[Going Commando]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Its whatever though. You can like or not like who you want. This place isn't what it used to be for me. 

 

Hey man, I appreciate you and some of the others trying to have good faith discussion.  That dude is just a loudmouth who doesn't know anything and who desperately wants attention.  I think he's had enough for the week, don't you?

[SoCalSkins]

10 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Well we disagree there too. I still think JC could have been a good QB here if he had a decent coach. HE started 5-3 with Gibbs and 6-2 with Zorn. Both time the team had losing streaks but he could have been a part of a good team here. Instead Shanny/Danny wanted a new toy and traded for McNabb. I was also on here in favor of Ramsey but they wanted a new toy and got Brunell and his one good year. 

 

Its whatever though. You can like or not like who you want. This place isn't what it used to be for me. 

Wow. Still defending JC. There is very little hope for you dude. It shows such an unwillingness to accept reality and facts. 
 

As definitive as I have made statements about DH being a bust, if he plays well, I will  acknowledge it and give him props as I did last year. I am certain he is a bust, but I am willing to process new information and facts and concede I was wildly wrong. The fact that a decade later with vast amounts of information that completely discredit your position on JC, you are still defending him is mind boggling. It’s not a good look dude.

 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

42 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I think you need to read my posts better. I have never, not once, said he can’t do it.

 

I’ve said he hasn’t, hasn’t shown the ability to. But things click sometimes. 
 

Baltimore is a big game for him. It can either give him a ton of confidence to move him forward or send him into a spiral.

 

400 yards and 3 TD's (and a deafening silence from the doubters) would be very on-brand for this roller coaster of a year

[Thinking Skins]

24 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Hey man, I appreciate you and some of the others trying to have good faith discussion.  That dude is just a loudmouth who doesn't know anything and who desperately wants attention.  I think he's had enough for the week, don't you?

Its not just him. Its more that the discussions are more of an ecochamber or a me against the world type thing. And that's not the bad part but what I'm reading here vs what I hear on the radio, what I read at sites like hogshaven, what I read on twitter, its like people here sound so much different. At least in the other sites there is some back and forth. Here its like anybody who speaks up for him has to defend some eternal question of why or what has he done or what scouting reports say, etc. 

 

With Campbell/Ramsey/late RG3/etc I could do those discussions but that time has passed. Maybe somebody else can take the lead on this, but I stand by Haskins until he shows me he can't do it. Campbell and Ramsey never showed me that. RG3 showed me that he couldn't stay healthy before showing me he couldn't develop. 

 

I guess I'll continue to chime in but I'm devoting too much time to saying the same things, just in different ways. Hopefully he just plays better and this thread calms down. Otherwise somebody else can probably defend him better than me. 

 

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

Its not just him. Its more that the discussions are more of an ecochamber or a me against the world type thing. And that's not the bad part but what I'm reading here vs what I hear on the radio, what I read at sites like hogshaven, what I read on twitter, its like people here sound so much different. At least in the other sites there is some back and forth. Here its like anybody who speaks up for him has to defend some eternal question of why or what has he done or what scouting reports say, etc. 

 

With Campbell/Ramsey/late RG3/etc I could do those discussions but that time has passed. Maybe somebody else can take the lead on this, but I stand by Haskins until he shows me he can't do it. Campbell and Ramsey never showed me that. RG3 showed me that he couldn't stay healthy before showing me he couldn't develop. 

 

I guess I'll continue to chime in but I'm devoting too much time to saying the same things, just in different ways. Hopefully he just plays better and this thread calms down. Otherwise somebody else can probably defend him better than me. 

 

 

 

Of course you have to defend it... Just as anyone on the other side should rightfully defend their stance. This is a forum about discussion... And you feel like you're on an island because you largely are. Does that mean your wrong? I'd say aside from your constant use of Josh Allen comparisons (  ) you're doing just fine. I don't agree. I think you're looking for any reason to believe in him because you want it... which no one can fault you for... but that doesn't mean you should feel like you can't do it. 

 

I've been on an island many times here.

 

But if you make some claims, you're going to need to talk about them. It's the way this site has always been.

 

Where we do agree... is that whether you believe or don't... he needs as much time as he can get to try... and in my opinion that amount of time is directly correlated to the amount of time his teammates are okay with him at that position. Which could be the full year, this week, 8 more weeks... any time. 

[SoCalSkins]

12 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Hopefully he just plays better and this thread calms down. Otherwise somebody else can probably defend him better than me. 

 

 

 

Dude he’s ranked nearly last or worse in almost every QB category. If he doesn’t play better, why does he need to be defended? You cut your losses and move on. You have been a fan long enough to understand that most picks don’t pan out. So why defend a player despite evidence that he doesn’t belong in a starting role or even in the NFL altogether? Particularly in the most important position on the team?  Why the blind loyalty to a player who hasn’t produced? I honestly don’t understand the rationale. 

[Thinking Skins]

yeah, but I'm not a young kid in college with all kinds of time to kill before going out. Its hard to come on here and see that a post I made was misunderstood and suddenly people are going down some entirely different narrative I didn't intend for (like the Campbell stuff in this thread, heck or even the Josh Allen stuff in this thread).

 

People will say XXX stat is why Haskins will never succeed. Somebody will say what about YYY who had that stat and succeeded. And its "so now you're comparing Haskins to YYY, here's how they're different". All I did with my initial posts here was come in and say hey there have been a lot of QBs who started off poorly and turned it around. Its not that hard to grasp. Its so weird because people are calling in Radio right now defending Haskins so I wonder why so few on here defend him. 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

Here's an interesting article on QB traits that can and cannot be improved: 

 

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/17/quarterback-traits-the-attainable-versus-the-inherent/

 

Mental Processing Ability and Speed
Verdict: Inherent Trait

 

 

I don't completely agree with this. Yes there are obviously some Super Smart ™ people who just naturally process information and pattern match faster than most. But the ability to rapidly process information in specific contexts is a skill that can be learned IMO. For example, chess grandmasters don't all have IQs of 170 (although I doubt you'd find one below a certain IQ level), but they train their brains for that specific skill so they can see patterns and react quickly (especially in something like speed chess). 

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

yeah, but I'm not a young kid in college with all kinds of time to kill before going out. Its hard to come on here and see that a post I made was misunderstood and suddenly people are going down some entirely different narrative I didn't intend for (like the Campbell stuff in this thread, heck or even the Josh Allen stuff in this thread).

 

People will say XXX stat is why Haskins will never succeed. Somebody will say what about YYY who had that stat and succeeded. And its "so now you're comparing Haskins to YYY, here's how they're different". All I did with my initial posts here was come in and say hey there have been a lot of QBs who started off poorly and turned it around. Its not that hard to grasp. Its so weird because people are calling in Radio right now defending Haskins so I wonder why so few on here defend him. 

 

The Josh Allen stuff was a misstep, especially after it's been pointed out to you why. I was shocked to see you, a poster that I think is a damn good one, jump back on that train on the last page. 

 

As for you seeing so many defending Haskins... I see it, too. And it's usually, seriously, a post that looks like this:

 

"LOL, ALL YOU SAYING HASKINS STINKS ARE GONNA EAT YOUR WORDS!!! LMAO!"

 

"YOU GUYS JUST DON'T WANT HIM TO SUCCEED!"

 

"HASKINS HAD GREAT COLLEGE STATS! HE'S A GOOD QB WE'VE RUINED!"

 

It's nauseating.

 

I actually enjoy watching guys like steve defend him. Or sometimes you. At least the arguments are well founded for the most part. I don't agree with your takes, but I respect them a hell of a lot more than I respect the type of posts that I just quoted from above.

 

The facebook group has a million of these. And it's with every player. I'm only still in it for the entertainment value. 

[SoCalSkins]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

The Josh Allen stuff was a misstep, especially after it's been pointed out to you why. I was shocked to see you, a poster that I think is a damn good one, jump back on that train on the last page. 

Defending Jason Campbell as a good QB with information and data we have in 2020, is a far more egregious misstep. It’s simply shocking to hear. If you can’t concede you were wrong 12 years ago but instead double down despite reality then you can’t  claim to be open to new information and willing to have a rational discussion. Its simply not possible. 

[GOATFrerotte]

10 hours ago, PartyPosse said:

I don’t remember saying Haskins was good, I said it was ridiculous to declare anyone with less than a seasons’s worth of starts anything but a work in progress. 
 

I only asked your age before because clearly you don’t understand the game of football nearly as well as you think you do.

 

What don't I understand? I think it's pretty clear to anyone who isn't emotionally invested in Haskins that he hasn't shown he's ready to be an NFL quarterback. I don't believe the rest of the team sucks so bad that it makes him suck so bad. Not sure what I'm not understanding, but I would love to hear your reasoning for making that comment, lol. And if it's because I said Trent Green and Brad Johnson weren't good qbs, it's because the context of the conversation was franchise qbs that year after year you don't have to worry about like Brady, Wilson, Rodgers. If you're speaking in just a general sense like compared to qbs like Haskins sure Alex Smith, Brad, Trent, Brunell, etc were "good" qbs. 

[GOATFrerotte]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

You're parsing my words. I'm not saying he did it solely and without help. But if we're going to look at his career log, its going to say come from behind wins +1 for that game. What I'm saying is that We've seen in all three games that Haskins can lead this team to TD drives. After the Eagles game, the complaint was that he couldn't do it on a full field. After the Cardinals game it was that he couldn't do it when they weren't behind by double digits. The Browns game he did it to take the lead twice, once in the 4th quarter. So he is showing that he has something in this league. 

 

Just for contrast, one of the biggest problems under late Gruden (I'm talking 2018 and 2019) was that he couldn't get TDs in the red zone. That's something that Haskins has been doing well - scoring TDs instead of relying on FGs. 

 

But it seems like I'm arguing an impossible thing because some are set that he will never develop and all I'm saying is that he's shown enough to be given more time. If you disagree thats your right. I just disagree. I took a break from this place because it was taking too much of my time. I came back to defend Haskins, but its getting back to taking too much of my time again finding new ways to say the same things. 

 

We will eventually see if he pans out. 

 

I agree with your assessment of him. That Cleveland game did show he has the ability to move the ball. It was the first time I saw what could possibly be a good qb. He has a strong arm, it's pretty when he's accurate, he can fit it in tight windows, etc. But at the end of the day he was still 4-14 throwing downfield, had difficulty throwing outside the numbers, was inaccurate on numerous throws were receivers had separation and then gave the game away with turnovers. It was a terrible game and we're not the only ones who saw it. Cooley gave him a D and would have gave him an F if it wasn't for his age. People in the game day thread were calling for his head. His play has simply been unacceptable for an NFL qb. People saying that, does not mean they don't like him or wish he doesn't succeed, it's just the fact of the matter. 

[FootballZombie]

4 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

Tebow had 652 rushing yards and 3 rushing touchdowns in his first ten starts.  He was terrible inaccurate, but he could scramble and run to make up for that.  Haskins can't scramble.

 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nfl-predictions/quarterbacks/

 

The complaint made by the poster and the information referenced from PFF were purely based on Haskins and Tebow's passing ability. Tebow's rushing stats are of no import in such a discussion.

[SoCalSkins]

2 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

The complaint made by the poster and the information referenced from PFF were purely based on Haskins and Tebow's passing ability. Tebow's rushing stats are of no import in such a discussion.

You are seriously making an argument that he is not the worst first round QB of the 21st century but instead is the second worst. We will concede that point even though it’s still up for argument. Doesn’t make DH any less of a bust or any better. 

[FootballZombie]

1 minute ago, SoCalSkins said:

You are seriously making an argument that he is not the worst first round QB of the 21st century but instead is the second worst. We will concede that point even though it’s still up for argument. Doesn’t make DH any less of a bust or any better. 

 

Clearly you have not been paying attention to my posts, but I guess that's pretty par for the course. I have Haskins rated higher than a few of the Young QBs starting today.

[SoCalSkins]

Just now, FootballZombie said:

 

Clearly you have not been paying attention to my posts, but I guess that's pretty par for the course. I have Haskins rated higher than a few of the Young QBs starting today.

And your evidence for that is based on Haskins having a better completion percentage than Tebow? Might want to adjust your ratings because they are not based on reality. You can make a vision board and dream about it like Haskins dreams about being in the hall of fame,  but in the real world, the dude ranks ahead of no one in the NFL. 

[FootballZombie]

8 minutes ago, SoCalSkins said:

 

 

Not my metric. Just disputing someone else’s.

 

You should read other posts more, it will lead to much less confusion like this in the future. Makes life easier for everyone. Zombies don’t like to run around in circles.

I'll forgive you this time tho

[SoCalSkins]

Just now, FootballZombie said:

 

Not my metric. Just disputing someone else’s.

 

 

 

You should read other posts more, it will lead to much less confusion like this in the future. Makes life easier for everyone. Zombies don’t like to run around in circles.

 

I'll forgive you this time tho

You might need to eat better brains before making your next set of ratings! 

[DJHJR86]

41 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

The complaint made by the poster and the information referenced from PFF were purely based on Haskins and Tebow's passing ability. Tebow's rushing stats are of no import in such a discussion.

 

And to make up for Tebow's bad passing ability and inaccuracy, he could rely on his legs.  Haskins cannot.  Ergo, the comparisons to Tebow and Josh Allen are worthless.

[FootballZombie]

14 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

 

 

Allen is a great example of how someone with bad accuracy can see marked improvement over time. His ability to run is meaningless in such an evaluation. The debate is not about whether younger Allen is better/can do more things than current Haskins, Its about whether or not an inaccurate young QB can improve in the realm of passing the football, Allen is a pretty good example that they can. and that is a very good case study for someone in Haskins situation.

 

If Haskins accuracy improves as other recent QBs have shown possible, you have your guy.