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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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25 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Well, there is a guy on the active roster making an avg of 23.5M this year.  So, if he wasn't smart enough to retire than put a helmet on him and send him out there. 

 

I can't in good conscience,  witness him getting pounded out there, or worse, sucking and getting trashed here for it, after what he's come back from.

 

Haskins is gonna have to either succeed or punch himself a ticket out of here.

Edited by Mr. Sinister
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37 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:


You also think Haskins is good, so I don’t know man. Brad wasn’t “bad” for us but in terms of franchise level qbs, we’ve had a rough go the last 30 years.

I don’t remember saying Haskins was good, I said it was ridiculous to declare anyone with less than a seasons’s worth of starts anything but a work in progress. 
 

I only asked your age before because clearly you don’t understand the game of football nearly as well as you think you do.

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My concern with Haskins is the inaccuracy. That is not commonly "fixed". Some of the passes he threw were not difficult for most of the NFL level QBs that resulted in picks. 

Any QB can do dumpoffs and short passes and pad stats for success. I have seen Haskins miss Terry a LOT for sure TDs. Every part of me wants him to be great because I dont want to go through this again. However, I dont truly believe he will last the season as the starter. He doesnt have it. RG3 before he was snakebit and scared was a much more accurate passer and he was a rookie. Haskins is in his make or fade into nonexistence year whether he realizes it or not. It may happen much sooner than we think. No franchise has the patience for 3 turnover games that are winnable otherwise. Josh Rosen didnt get much of a chance and neither will Haskins. Its simply the way of the NFL now. The days of Manning having a year to figure things out are gone. 

 

Edited by mrfixit28
Wrong Manning
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2 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Interesting how arguments over the starting QB always end up being the most polarizing and volatile of all issues on a team.

It was that way with Cousins, and with RG3, and so on.

It's like the issue becomes a personally, deeply sensitive and convicting belief.

 

 

 

Cousins and RGIII.   LOL

Child, let me tell you the story of Sonny and Billy....

Take Kirky and Robby's desire to each be the starting QB in Washington, put it on steroids and give it desoxyn, and then you almost have Sonny and Billy.

You have to add Joey.

 

You're new around here, ain'tcha?

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11 minutes ago, GothSkinsFan said:

Cousins and RGIII.   LOL

Child, let me tell you the story of Sonny and Billy....

Take Kirky and Robby's desire to each be the starting QB in Washington, put it on steroids and give it desoxyn, and then you almost have Sonny and Billy.

You have to add Joey.

 

You're new around here, ain'tcha?

 

Imagine that bad boy playing out in todays media circus. There would be mass casualties :ols:

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1 hour ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

 

 

Your getting sucked into headlines there. Haskin's would have to literally drop double digit percentage points to be in Tim Tebow territory. That is a whole other realm of poor accuracy. He is closer to other QBs than he is to Tebow. To take that headline and say he is as bad as him would be way off.

 

While its not a good look being under 60, you can feel better knowing that he is not even close to being Tim Tebow levels of bad at slinging the ball. Nobody is

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4 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

I can't in good conscience,  witness him getting pounded out there, or worse, sucking and getting trashed here for it, after what he's come back from.

Man, I wish you were my employer...23.5M and don't have to show up!  Sign me up. 

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5 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

Gus ended up having a long, decent career, beyond the Skins, despite earning somewhat of  journeyman label.

He led the Broncos to the playoffs. Threw for over 20,000 yards. And so on.

Compare him to any QB we drafted since the 1st Gibbs team, and he's arguably as successful or more-so. That's actually a sad thing, and says a lot bout our QB drafts.

With a decent supporting cast, he probably would have done even better. To a degree, he elevated the teams around him. He just didn't have the skills to take it to the top level.

 

This is my thinking exactly. I was the biggest Gus fan back in the day. Having lived through the 80s and seeing that Theisman, Williams, Schreder, Rypken were all good but not great QBs on great teams, I have always wanted to build that type of a model team over the Aikmen style Cowboys or Montana/Young style 49ers or Favre style Packers of the 90s. Its somewhat different now because this era has been dominated by QB led teams where the QB is a superstar but we can look at these last 20 years in a few ways. Who was the SB winning QB or which teams made the playoffs or which teams won in the playoffs. 

 

 

Going by the last metric, Gus is definitely a QB who could have stayed here his whole career and potentially led us to a few playoff runs. Same for Trent or Brad. I don't think George/Banks/Danny/Shane are up to par. But I think we could have been competitive with Ramsey. We were competitive with Brunell. I think we could have made it work with Campbell/McNabb/Grossman. RG3 is iffy because while I think he needed to grow as a QB, I think his bigger problem was his injuries which would have stunted his development. Then Cousins could have led us, Smith could have led us and now Haskins can lead us (I also think Case could lead us). I don't think Colt could because he gets injured too often. 

 

After 40 years of following this team and this league, I'm way more interested in just comptency at the QB position than anything else. Its like if we have a CB, its not necessary to have Champ Bailey, we can win with a Carlos Rogers who's just not getting beat every snap if it helps us to build a strong team. 

 

5 hours ago, mrfixit28 said:

My concern with Haskins is the inaccuracy.

Define inaccuracy though because he throws a lot of catchable balls. It may not be the perfectly placed balls but he puts balls into the spots for his WRs a lot of the times, but many times its that its not with the touch or it may be before a hit over the middle. But a good WR with strong hands, and particularly ones who are used to catching balls from Haskins 

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1 hour ago, TheShredder said:

Man, I wish you were my employer...23.5M and don't have to show up!  Sign me up. 

Also an employer that arguably failed to provide the resources to protect you from suffering life-changing injuries. 

 

I have no problem with all that money headed his way. 

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5 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

Your getting sucked into headlines there. Haskin's would have to literally drop double digit percentage points to be in Tim Tebow territory. That is a whole other realm of poor accuracy. He is closer to other QBs than he is to Tebow. To take that headline and say he is as bad as him would be way off.

 

While its not a good look being under 60, you can feel better knowing that he is not even close to being Tim Tebow levels of bad at slinging the ball. Nobody is

 

Tebow had 652 rushing yards and 3 rushing touchdowns in his first ten starts.  He was terrible inaccurate, but he could scramble and run to make up for that.  Haskins can't scramble.

 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-nfl-predictions/quarterbacks/

 

Haskins is rated as the worst quarterback on the team.  

Edited by DJHJR86
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For me I'd like to see a game where Haskins airs it out.  That's the PFF guy quoted below.  Whether its Haskins or Scott Turner, I'd like to say a game plan where he lets it fly and see what happens.  They are passing a lot.  But they aren't going down the field much.  

 

http://4state.news/pff-analyst-sunday-was-dwayne-haskins-at-his-worst-heres-how-it-could-get-better/

“For every good thing he did, it took him two attempts to do it,” he said. “He’d miss the guy the first time, then he’d connect on the second time. Then he’d offset every good play with a bad mistake.”

 

After the ugly effort in Cleveland, some of Washington’s fan base is seriously questioning whether Haskins will ever become a legit NFL starter. Even Ron Rivera acknowledged that there’ll be a “cut-off point” for the former first-rounder, where the head coach chooses to move on from him. No, Rivera hasn’t arrived to that spot yet, but him bringing that idea up felt significant on its own.

Later on in his appearance with the Junkies, Monson was asked how often a QB is able to recover from such a poor beginning to his career and turn into someone a franchise can build around. His answer wasn’t very assuring.

 

“One of the worst rookie seasons we’ve ever seen was Matthew Stafford,” he said. “His grade his first year was atrocious. He’s really the only one that’s had a terrible rookie grade and bounced back to being a completely different player. The rest of the guys on that list are quarterbacks that almost immediately dive out of the league. It’s Blaine Gabbert, it’s Blake Bortles, it’s those kinds of guys.

 

“At some point you want to see that development. And right now, the concerning thing with Haskins is he’s heading the other direction. There’s no signs of development or improvement. He’s just had the worst game of his career and it’s not like the rest of the season had been particularly impressive either.”

 

Not all of Monson’s thoughts were wholly on the negative side. He, like many others who evaluate Haskins, allowed that there are “glimmers” of quality from No. 7.

He also identified one way in which Washington can do more to assist him going forward.

“Trying to help Haskins out in terms of play design and just giving him some free yards,” Monson

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Dwayne Haskins has never thrown over 270 yards in 10 career starts...
 

Neither Did Josh Allen...in his first 28 starts.

 

 

 

I think we've beaten to death already about the differences between Josh Allen and the typical pocket QB. 

 

The point of PFF and others is you want to see flashes though the ups and down.  If some want to contend, give him the season to showcase that, and it can come as soon asd this Sunday or the week after, I agree.  If the point is yawn what good QB didn't struggle early on in just about identifical fashion to Haskins -- the stats don't back that up especially in recent years.   Yes, there are exceptions.  That's life, there are exceptions to everything.   But actuaries who work for insurance companies play the odds not the outliers for a reason. 

12 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

I am even more grateful now that Rivera is in charge, 'cuz I am confident he will do what needs doing without giving a single **** what the background noise is

 

I agree.  He's already made some noise about Haskins this week which politically speaking, he'd probably would have done better noise wise to keep it to himself, yet he didn't care.

 

I trust whatever Rivera decides on Haskins and everything else.

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

The point of PFF and others is you want to see flashes though the ups and down.  If some want to contend, give him the season to showcase that, I agree.  If the point is yawn what good QB didn't struggle early on in just about identifical fashion to Haskins -- the stats don't back that up especially in recent years.   Yes, there are exceptions.  That's life, there are exceptions to everything.   But actuaries who work for insurance companies play the odds not the outliers for a reason. 

But the problem with PFF and looking at just numbers is they ignore context. 

 

How many of these QBs in the past 20 years had to work with a Calahan type offensive system as a rookie? I think that was great to Haskins in terms of development and building his confidence and getting him useed to the speed of the game, but its not going to give him any stats. If you compare Haskins to 80s and 90s QB, which is the style of offense he was playing - then he's right on par. 

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20 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Dwayne Haskins has never thrown over 270 yards in 10 career starts...
 

Neither Did Josh Allen...in his first 28 starts.

 

 

Josh Allen had a 1061 yards rushing in those first 28 games.  He found a way to compensate until he developed.

Edited by JSSkinz
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28 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Dwayne Haskins has never thrown over 270 yards in 10 career starts...
 

Neither Did Josh Allen...in his first 28 starts.

 

 


You’re still using this God awful comparison?

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Just now, KDawg said:


You’re still using this God awful comparison?

No, I'm just saying that Dwayne isn't the first. People as recently as June of this year were calling Allen a bust for this very reason. He hadn't thrown a 300 (or 270) yard game before week 1. 

 

I'm saying that Haskins is a different QB than Allen under different circumstances. Calahan's system wasn't set up for him to have big passing days, let alone our offensive environment or our actual coaching staff that was here before Cal. 

 

People act like Haskins can't complete a pass in the NFL. He has led this team from behind to victory this year, and led us from behind to take the lead last week. Those are things to build on. He has also made critical mistakes and those are things to learn from. But I'm not going to discount him or throw him out like yesterday's trash because some stat or metric says he's not doing it right. 

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20 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

But the problem with PFF and looking at just numbers is they ignore context. 

 

How many of these QBs in the past 20 years had to work with a Calahan type offensive system as a rookie? I think that was great to Haskins in terms of development and building his confidence and getting him useed to the speed of the game, but its not going to give him any stats. If you compare Haskins to 80s and 90s QB, which is the style of offense he was playing - then he's right on par. 

 

I listened to Monson's (from PFF) interview and he didn't ignore context.   Some from PFF have said before they do not think Haskins arm talent is special.  They think its good, not special.  Monson's point wasn't purely about Haskins likely will fail but it was more driven by if you have an oppoprtunity to find a QB with special attributes, you take that dude without hestiating.  Haskins' talent to him doesn't warrant skipping an opportunity to upgrade.  He flat out said his supporting cast is poor.  I think we all agree on that.  But even with that, you can see accuracy.  You can see footwork.  You aren't watching a QB where you are oblivious to what you got, just because Inman isn't a hot receiver. 

 

The problem IMO with this debate as getting people to agree i think mostly centers on these conflicting points/premises

 

A.  Haskins is a really special talent, be patient with the dude, but wow if he hits his ceiling and we think he will, we got a bonafide top 10 guy

B.  Haskins has good talent, not special, and plenty of QBs with his flaws have failed in the NFL, give him time to work through the kinks but if he doesn't then go find special

 

The people with the premise of A and premise of B, won't be coming at this from the same perspective.

 

A. A really large number of QBs who are successful played poorly from the jump almost apples to apples to Haskins.  So what's the panic?

B. A really large number of QBs who failed indeed played poorly from the jump just about apples to apples to Haskins.  Yes, some successful QBs started poorly.  But in the last decade in particular when pro offenses have adapted many college concepts and the league has become more QB friendly - you've seen more early flashes from future successful QBs.

 

If you see it A or B you won't see it the same way.

 

Then this seems to play into your thought process.  Sheehan seems to see it similar too since he likes Haskins yet doesn't per se him as a top half of the league QB down the road and thinks its unlikely he's top 10.

 

A.  Beggars can't be choosers.  We'd take a competent QB -- somewhere between 18-22, Andy Dalton type is fine.  Maybe we don't reach a SB with a dude like that but you never know maybe we will and at least we won't stink and be competitibe even if not great.  And we think Haskins at least becomes that. 

 

B.  Enjoyed the 9-7 Jay runs but at the point its pathetic that the bar is that low.  And we don't buy you are reaching a SB with an Andy Dalton type and the idea of having at best a run with a QB like that is yawn.  And we aren't even sure that Haskins reaches that level, at a minimum its far from a slam dunk.

 

I know some don't neatly fit into these categories and have different twists of these points.  But my thought is if the premise of their thinking is different than yours than you aren't likely to find an agreement because their perspective is dictating it.   Personally I see it like Monson.  Maybe Haskins does work out.  But I doubt his version of working out ends up anything special.  I'd be willing to let the movie play out the season to see if i am wrong.  But if Haskins ends up somewhat similar to what we've seen, and we have a chance to improve on him, then do it.  on the other hand if I saw Haskins brimming with special talent, I'd feel differently. 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Here's an interesting article on QB traits that can and cannot be improved: 

 

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2016-nfl-draft/2016/03/17/quarterback-traits-the-attainable-versus-the-inherent/

 

Footwork
Verdict: Attainable Skill

 

Fluidity
Verdict: Inherent Trait

 

Throwing Mechanics
Verdict: Attainable Skill

 

Arm Talent
Verdict: Inherent Trait

 

Quick Release
Verdict: Inherent Trait

 

Reading A Defense
Verdict: Attainable Skill

 

Mental Processing Ability and Speed
Verdict: Inherent Trait

 

Accuracy Throwing From A Clean Pocket
Verdict: Attainable Trait

 

Accuracy Throwing From Different Platforms
Verdict: Inherent Trait

 

Eye Manipulation
Verdict: Attainable Trait

 

Poise In The Pocket
Verdict: Inherent Trait

 

Clutch Factor
Verdict: Inherent Trait

 

Decision-Making
Verdict: Hung Jury

 

Work Ethic
Verdict: Inherent Trait

 

A quarterback considered a first round talent should have most, if not all, of the natural traits/skills. If he grades out poorly in his attainable skills/traits, he might be a prospect that a team will consider sitting for a year or two before playing. His evaluation should be based on how highly his nature traits/skills are graded.
 

It seems like Haskins has all those traits that this article deems inherent and the others he can attain with good coaching. 

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8 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

No, I'm just saying that Dwayne isn't the first. People as recently as June of this year were calling Allen a bust for this very reason. He hadn't thrown a 300 (or 270) yard game before week 1. 

 

Yes. And he had over 1100 rushing yards in his first two seasons with 17 rushing TD.

 

Haskins had... 100. And no TDs.

 

And people STILL were calling for his head. 

 

So I'm not sure how that strengthens any pro Haskins argument.

 

Quote

I'm saying that Haskins is a different QB than Allen under different circumstances. Calahan's system wasn't set up for him to have big passing days, let alone our offensive environment or our actual coaching staff that was here before Cal. 

 

It isn't set up for that because that's not who he is as a quarterback. In college he threw screens, short passes inside the numbers and relied on a quick release and getting playmakers the ball in space. I don't know why people expected Haskins to become a downfield attack guy. He never showed a penchant to really do that. He showed the ability to catch and throw lasers to his guys in space. Which, coincidentally, is what he's good at with Washington. 

 

But let's blame everyone but Haskins.

 

Quote

People act like Haskins can't complete a pass in the NFL. He has led this team from behind to victory this year, and led us from behind to take the lead last week. Those are things to build on. He has also made critical mistakes and those are things to learn from. But I'm not going to discount him or throw him out like yesterday's trash because some stat or metric says he's not doing it right. 

 

 

He... led his team... to victory... from behind? C'mon. Yes, he helped notch points. So he was a big part of that victory... but it wasn't the defensive LINE that led the team to victory? It wasn't Moreau and Moreland's big turnovers that led the team to victory? It was Haskins on a short field with the Eagles on the ropes?

 

You keep using stats and metrics, but use the eye test. The guy has not markedly improved. 

 

Does that mean that he CAN'T? Absolutely not.

 

But the fact that so many here can't begin to fathom why people are down on Haskins is absolutely mind blowing to me. He has shown no redeemable traits that justify keeping him as the quarterback. The reason he's the quarterback is there are no outwardly better options, and the team surrounding him is weak so the ability to contend just isn't there. If this team was playing well and Haskins was costing them games like the Cleveland game... do you think he'd still be the QB?

 

He can afford to get the season to see if things click because this team isn't built to compete right now.

 

The next retort is: "Well, that's why we can't fully judge him" - But his poor accuracy has been a performance indicator for him thus far. His inability to escape pressure has been a performance indicator so far. His lack of poise has been a performance indicator so far.

 

It can change. Yes. I don't see it happening given what we've seen but anyone that wants to not let him play it out (for both the ability to see what he has, and if he's not great the ability to get a draft pick) is not allowing for development in this specific situation... But at some point you have to look at his play... not his numbers... and see he's just not doing it right now. 

 

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10 hours ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

Interesting how arguments over the starting QB always end up being the most polarizing and volatile of all issues on a team.

The other guy: "Did you catch that terrible debate the other night?"

 

Me: "You mean the QB thread on ES?"

 

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