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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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That debate doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Allen’s legs opened the opportunity to develop. If he didn’t have them he wouldn’t have lasted and, quite frankly, he wouldn’t have developed with his confidence shot from the poor passing performances.

 

You cannot separate the two. 

Edited by KDawg
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17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

That debate doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Allen’s legs opened the opportunity to develop. If he didn’t have them he wouldn’t have lasted and, quite frankly, he wouldn’t have developed with his confidence shot from the poor passing performances.

 

You cannot separate the two. 

 

Allen is almost the quintessential example of a raw QB with freakish attributes and begs for patience.  Not just as for Allen's speed but his arm strength is off the charts.  Haskin's isn't a freak as for mobility or arm strength.  He has really good arm strength but nothing off the charts IMO and ditto the opinion of some others including PFF and some who tracked the velocity of his throws.

 

And like you, I do think Haskins deserves some patience and a larger sample size to see if he puts it together.  It's certainly possible.  But I wouldn't wait for a long time if he doesn't pick it up and another more attractive opportunity presents itself.  

 

 

https://www.actionnetwork.com/nfl/patrick-mahomes-josh-allen-throwing-contest-betting-odds-picks

Who can throw the football farther: Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen? Or Kansas City Chiefs quarterback and 2018 NFL MVP Patrick Mahomes?

In February, prompted by the guys at Barstool Radio, Allen challenged Mahomes to a throwing contest.

On Friday, April 5, Mahomes responded to Allen’s challenge while speaking at a charity event in Rochester, New York.

Josh is a great dude. But no one that I’ve known has been able to throw a ball farther than me. I’ve never seen Josh throw in person but maybe next offseason we can set something up. Hopefully I can get him to come down to Kansas City, and we can do something for charity. It’s going to take at least 85 yards to win.

Eighty. Five. Yards. That’s, like, almost an entire football field.

It’s doubtful that Mahomes and Allen will ever actually have their throw-off. And if they do, it likely won’t be till the 2020 offseason.

But that doesn’t mean bets can’t be placed on the event right now.

 

 

https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2020/07/bills-josh-allen-has-stronger-arm-than-patrick-mahomes-madden-ratings-say-so.html

Bills’ Josh Allen has stronger arm than Patrick Mahomes? Madden ratings say so

Updated Jul 13, 2020; Posted Jul 13, 2020
 

Buffalo Bills quarterback (left) and Kansas City Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes (right).

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Madden NFL 2021 is scheduled for release on Aug. 25 and when it drops gamers looking for the quarterback with the strongest arm in the game are going to have to pick the Buffalo Bills.

Josh Allen received the game’s highest rating in arm strength with a 99 and Kansas City Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes had the second highest with a 97.

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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3 hours ago, KDawg said:

I think you need to read my posts better. I have never, not once, said he can’t do it.

 

I’ve said he hasn’t, hasn’t shown the ability to. But things click sometimes. 
 

Baltimore is a big game for him. It can either give him a ton of confidence to move him forward or send him into a spiral.

 

This is how I feel.

 

Though, I'll add, Baltimore is an upper-echelon team. After getting their teeth kicked in by KC, they're going to be looking for payback. I think that game could get pretty ugly real quick, and not just for Dwayne.

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1 minute ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

This is how I feel.

 

Though, I'll add, Baltimore is an upper-echelon team. After getting their teeth kicked in by KC, they're going to be looking for payback. I think that game could get pretty ugly real quick, and not just for Dwayne.

 

And it looks like we'll be without CY too. Sooo....might have to take a pass on it this week.

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Just now, Riggo#44 said:

 

And it looks like we'll be without CY too. Sooo....might have to take a pass on it this week.

 

I'm already in the fetal position. Ready to stick my thumb in my mouth and cry at a moment's notice.

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16 minutes ago, KDawg said:

That debate doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Allen’s legs opened the opportunity to develop. If he didn’t have them he wouldn’t have lasted and, quite frankly, he wouldn’t have developed with his confidence shot from the poor passing performances.

 

You cannot separate the two. 

 

And until he isn’t, by all means Haskins is being given a shot to receive the same time investment opportunity. Its not like he is currently on the bench. As long as he is QB1 he is being offered that time to develop. The argument you are presenting does not come into play until Haskins is either injured or benched.

 

Allen’s rookie season featured an abysmal 52% completion percentage. We have clear examples that worse passers than him have developed given time. It is not unreasonable to think Haskins can grow in the same way.

 

Its like complaining crops wont grow if you don’t give it water, but they are being watered every day.

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29 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

 

Allen is a great example of how someone with bad accuracy can see marked improvement over time. His ability to run is meaningless in such an evaluation. The debate is not about whether younger Allen is better/can do more things than current Haskins, Its about whether or not an inaccurate young QB can improve in the realm of passing the football, Allen is a pretty good example that they can. and that is a very good case study for someone in Haskins situation.

 

If Haskins accuracy improves as other recent QBs have shown possible, you have your guy.

 

Or he can turn out like majority of qbs who look that bad and we just waste years waiting. I for one haven't seen enough from him to want to wait for the magical chance that he becomes the next Allen. Teams playing too good this year to wait, give Kyle Allen a chance. Anything that can be said about Haskins can be said about Kyle, the only difference is we drafted Haskins.  

Edited by httr2020dynasty
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3 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

Teams playing too good this year to wait, give Kyle Allen a chance.

 

What team have you been watching? We have a good, but not quite great, defense, coupled with an offense far too devoid of top-level talent to really compete this year. We may be currently tied with Dallas for first place, but I'm positive that team would steamroll us.

 

We are not playoff caliber this season, no matter who's under center.

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4 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

This gets to what I've been talking with SIP about. I'm not trying to make him into something he's not. He can throw that slant to TMac well and he throws some more underneath well. He set the SEC BIG TEN record for TD passes in a season doing that so yeah, I'd think he can do that in the NFL while he builds his other skills. Maybe they will never develop but we have seen he can do some things here in the league. 

 

 

Most here (with some rare exceptions), including me are with you about giving Haskins a shot here and more time  Heck I don't want to bench the dude this season.  I'd even ride Haskins next season if he struggles and a better opportunity does not present itself.  But if another more attractive (and that's subjective) option presents itself in FA or the draft, I'd move on if Haskins continues to play like this.  Why?  i am just not sold he's an off the charts talent where the odds are good that he's a slam dunk or close enough franchise QB.   I could be wrong on that.  I hope I am.  But that's just how I see it now, its just my opinion. 

 

I am 100% on the ride that he may or can improve.  My only real argument with your point I believe is that I don't think much of how he's played this season or excuse or brush it off.  I get grading him on a curve and agree with that notion but its not hard to see that IMO he hasn't conquered his weakenesses just yet.   

 

My other argument with you (I think we might disagree on this but maybe i am wrong) is if Haskins plays out this season like this, he doesn't get a pass from me where its an automatic lets ride this train through 2021 again drill.   If we pick #3 for example and they love Justin Fields or whomever and think he's a better bet than Haskins, I'd pull the trigger in 2 seconds without looking back.

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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4 minutes ago, httr2020dynasty said:

 

Or he can turn out like majority of qbs who look that bad and we just waste years waiting. I for one haven't seen enough from him to want to wait for the magical chance that he becomes the next Allen. Teams playing too good this year to wait, give Kyle Allen a chance. Anything that can be said about Haskins can be said about Kyle, the only difference is we drafted Haskins.  


Dan drafted him over the objections of the football people. In the highly unlikely and miraculous event Haskins turns it around it simply validates Dan as a viable GM. Time to consider Terry and Montez as our first round picks that year and move forward. Can’t chase a sunk cost. 

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6 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

What team have you been watching? We have a good, but not quite great, defense, coupled with an offense far too devoid of top-level talent to really compete this year. We may be currently tied with Dallas for first place, but I'm positive that team would steamroll us.

 

We are not playoff caliber this season, no matter who's under center.

 

Disagree, we are a qb away from being 2-1 and with how bad the NFC east is this year and how many winnable games we have on our schedule, we have a chance with our current team. The team is not nearly as bad as the Haskins supporters are trying to make it. 

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27 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

And until he isn’t, by all means Haskins is being given a shot to receive the same time investment opportunity. Its not like he is currently on the bench. As long as he is QB1 he is being offered that time to develop. The argument you are presenting does not come into play until Haskins is either injured or benched.

 

 

 

Allen’s rookie season featured an abysmal 52% completion percentage. We have clear examples that worse passers than him have developed given time. It is not unreasonable to think Haskins can grow in the same way.

 

 

 

Its like complaining crops wont grow if you don’t give it water, but they are being watered every day.

 


I don’t get what you’re arguing. 
 

Haskins can’t develop the same way as Allen. He doesn’t run. 1100 yards and 17 TD in 2 years on the ground for Allen. Haskins has about 100 and no TD. It’s not the same. Strike that from your head.

 

Allen’s development as a passer is in large part due to his legs.

 

You can’t give a guy multiple seasons to develop and meanwhile alienate the entire team because you’re getting your asses kicked every week. Or you’re hanging in and the QB costs you a game. You don’t have 3-5 years to play a guy who isn’t giving you results.

 

The Bills won. Partially due to Allen’s legs. The WFT is not winning. 
 

And, even if you put them on an even playing field (they aren’t), you’re going to give 3-5 years to a guy who has shown no ability for improvement. That can change for sure this year, but so far it really hasn’t. 
 

I’m not presenting any argument other than Haskins’ legs don’t help give him time and that means the team could pull the plug early. 
 

My argument is never and was never that he can never develop. It’s that in DC he was given a bad hand and he may not have the chance if he doesn’t turn the tide soon because he doesn’t use his legs like Josh Allen.

 

You know who else doesn’t have great accuracy? Lamar Jackson. Yet no one is mentioning him in these conversations.

 

Wonder why.

 

EDIT: if you’re leaving a confused emoji on this post, like @ILikeBilly, I expect some back and forth in convo and not a drive by non sense emoji. I’d love to clarify and have a conversation instead of participate in passive aggressive back and forths.

Edited by KDawg
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28 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

What team have you been watching? We have a good, but not quite great, defense, coupled with an offense far too devoid of top-level talent to really compete this year. We may be currently tied with Dallas for first place, but I'm positive that team would steamroll us.

 


 

Im not too confident that would happen.  I do have a tough time picking our games though.  Most other games I’m decisive.  Both Dallas and Washington got their wins on comeback victories.  I just noticed it.  When we’re healthy, I think we’re better equipped to deal with Dallas this time around.

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Your argument is that Allen was given an opportunity to develop, partially due to his legs, and as a result he has improved.

 

My argument is that we have a great recent example of a worse passer (Allen) who has improved his passing ability. I'm totally ignoring his running ability. It does not matter in my argument.

 

We are focusing on two different points.

 

 

Haskins has cost this team 1 game this season. While he may not be the reason we beat Ari, he was not the biggest reason we lost. As long as Haskins is not actively costing his team games, he will in all likelihood continue to be QB 1, and as long as he is starting, he is being offered an opportunity to grow.

 

We all knew this team was not good coming into the season. His head coach is on a cold seat. Haskins will not be expected to win a lot of games to keep his job. It will be more based on his performance. He can reasonably keep his job with around 5 Ws.

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5 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

 

It isn't set up for that because that's not who he is as a quarterback. In college he threw screens, short passes inside the numbers and relied on a quick release and getting playmakers the ball in space. I don't know why people expected Haskins to become a downfield attack guy. He never showed a penchant to really do that. He showed the ability to catch and throw lasers to his guys in space. Which, coincidentally, is what he's good at with Washington. 

 

But let's blame everyone but Haskins.

 

 

This point is really my thesis about Haskins.  I landed on that point just before that draft.  When I watched Haskins, he was about mostly about slants, digs, shallow crosses, mesh concepts, 5-10 yard in routes in between the numbers.   His placement to receivers shooting for YAC by the numbers is wildly inconsistent -- he's not hot at throwing the ball in a place where they can catch it in stride and run.  But its the opposite as for in between the numbers as for in-routes -- great placement of the ball for YAC.  That to me is his sweet spot.   Throw a quick slant to Terry in between the numbers, place the ball well, and Terry takes off. 

 

As for everything else, he's erratic IMO.  My take on him watching his college games is he's very good with the type of throws i mentioned.  But he struggles with most out routes, deep balls, throwing on the move, and even some throws in the flat past the numbers. 

 

The tease about him is he has exceptions to everything.  He can throw an occasional beauty out route down the field for example or nail some of the throws that i thought he mostly struggled with.   So the hope would be those glimpses would reflect that the idea that since he can do it on occasion, he can develop until a Qb who can do it consistenly.   But if so i haven't seen it yet.  

 

I just find his accuracy at best inconsistent and I don't think his skill set is anything amazing where I'd wait it out for a long time to see if he can work through that.   I recall one practice in camp where he was unbelievable including making some of the type of throws that i think he typically struggles with.  But otherwise he was so to so to bad.    And watching his play so far, it strikes more of the same.  His wheelhouse is right between the numbers -- short to intermediate range.  The other throws, he's all over the place IMO. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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We have to protect the QB.

And desperate times call for desperate measures...or at least a desperate imagination.

So, what if we could take our stud defensive linemen, and have them double up on the other side of the ball, to revive our OL ?

This is how I'd imagine it.

 

LT - Jonathan Allen

LG - Tim Settle

C - Ryan Anderson

RG - Daron Payne

RT - Ryan Kerrigan

TE - Chase Young

TE - Montez Sweat

 

Just give 'em a Red Bull and a Gatorade in between each series.

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4 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

Your argument is that Allen was given an opportunity to develop, partially due to his legs, and as a result he has improved.

 

 

 

My argument is that we have a great recent example of a worse passer (Allen) who has improved his passing ability. I'm totally ignoring his running ability. It does not matter in my argument.

 

 

 

We are focusing on two different points.

 

 

 

 

 

Haskins has cost this team 1 game this season. While he may not be the reason we beat Ari, he was not the biggest reason we lost. As long as Haskins is not actively costing his team games, he will in all likelihood continue to be QB 1, and as long as he is starting, he is being offered an opportunity to grow.

 

 

 

We all knew this team was not good coming into the season. His head coach is on a cold seat. Haskins will not be expected to win a lot of games to keep his job. It will be more based on his performance. He can reasonably keep his job with around 5 Ws.

 


I don’t think we are, and that’s my point. I think you’re arguing that passers that struggled have developed into better passers, and citing Allen. I’m saying that he developed because he was given time due to his legs.

 

Your counter is: Rivera isn’t on the hot seat. Mine is: He still has a team of guys that rely on him to try to put the best players on the field.

 

My point has never been, “ive seen enough, he can’t develop! Bench him right now!”

 

Its, “I haven’t seen much saying he’s going to turn it around, but give him as much time as we can until the team/locker room begins to sour”.

 

When that happens you can’t evaluate anything because everything is off. When that happens you never got a look at your backup QB to determine his ability moving forward. When that happens you have ostracized your players who are developing.

 

theres a chance that the locker room never sours and he closes the season. I’m fine with that. In fact, I want that. Let the guy get the full slate to show he doesn’t have it... or to let something click for him. 
 

What people don’t understand when I engage in these conversations is that I want Haskins to be the guy. That helps this team so much. I just don’t think he is. But for this season I’m in no rush. Let it play out how it needs to.

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For every comparison you make to someone who was terrible who became good there are 20 qbs that were terrible and remained terrible. So if we are going off of odds of what's most likely to happen, it's not good. Majority of good qbs look talented from the very beginning. Doesn't mean they don't throw picks or struggle their rookie seasons, but they at least can consistently put up yards and tds because they can make plays. 

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If you believe my argument is “a passer that was struggling developed” and indeed “a passer that was struggling did develop” then by all means, it happened. There are no qualifiers needed. I don’t care if they can run. I don’t care if they can log snaps on STs. It’s just recent proof positive. That is all.

 

 

If anything I’m getting more confused by your stance. I know your not rooting for him to fail, but I don’t see you going in any set direction when your last post says:

 

If we get to a tipping point.

We are not at that tipping point

We may never reach that tipping point.  

 

Its pretty vague with no set direction. How can you argue Haskins won’t get the time necessary, If you don’t even know how much time he’ll get? It’s a bit all over the place. Like my buddy Sunny after that last clusterbomb attack. Don’t worry about him tho, we can rebuild him. Make him stronger… Just gotta find his brain…

Edited by FootballZombie
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Last 10 years of qbs to finish last in QBR...

 

09 - Jamarcus Russell

10 - Jimmy Clausen

11 - Blaine Gabbert

12 - John Skelton

13 - Matt Flynn

14 - Blake Bortles

15 - Nick Foles

16 - Jared Goff

17 - Trevor Simien

18 - Josh Rosen

19 - Dwayne Haskins

 

Now what's funny about this conversation, is the Haskins supporters will only see two names on this list... Goff and Foles. While completely ignoring the other 8 names that are some of the biggest busts and terrible qbs the NFL has seen in the last 10 years. And what's even worse for Haskins, is he is dead last again this year. 

 

No qb has finished last twice although Jamarcus was close finishing 2nd to last the year before. Should we give Haskins couple years like they gave Jamarcus or Bortles? Lot of coaches end up losing their jobs by hitching their wagons to bad qbs. 

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4 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

If you believe my argument is “a passer that was struggling developed” and indeed “a passer that was struggling did develop” then by all means, it happened. There are no qualifiers needed. I don’t care if they can run. I don’t care if they can log snaps on STs. It’s just recent proof positive. That is all.

 

 

If anything I’m getting more confused by your stance. I know your not rooting for him to fail, but I don’t see you going in any set direction when your last post says:

 

If we get to a tipping point.

We are not at that tipping point

We may never reach that tipping point.  

 

Its pretty vague with no set direction. How can you argue Haskins won’t get the time necessary, If you don’t even know how much time he’ll get? It’s a bit all over the place. Like my buddy Sunny after that last clusterbomb attack. Don’t worry about him tho, we can rebuild him. Make him stronger… Just gotta find his brain…


I honestly don’t see how you’re confused with my stance at all. 
 

He won’t get the time if he continues playing like he has - is this a stretch? Rivera said it himself already. 
 

Are we at the tipping point? - how could I know? I’m not in the building. I do know there is one somewhere... 

 

I’m not claiming to know if he’ll get the time necessary, I’m claiming that I don’t think he will if he doesn’t turn it around soon because it would be a monumental waste of years.

 

Your initial point in this post, the first paragraph, is problematic. You are still trying to view a quarterback in a vacuum to other skills. If he can’t run, he’s going to have a lot more trouble developing if he’s not doing well as a passer. And he’s not doing well as a passer. He has severe accuracy issues. I’m not talking in terms of stats. I’m talking missed reads, touch or lack thereof, miscommunication with the receivers, hospital throws. 
 

If you think throwing is the essence of the quarterback and neglect leadership, charisma, maturity, development, accuracy, running, etc, etc, etc is not pertinent I think you’re missing a big part of quarterback play. 
 

I go back to my initial point: you cannot view all quarterbacks the same and compare them to one another. Haskins isn’t Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson. He can’t run. And doesn’t have the support of his team/the community/fans/organization like they do.

 

 Find another pocket guy that played similar to Haskins and was put in as bad of a situation and has developed for the same team and I’ll listen to you much more faithfully.
 

Off the top of my head I can’t think of one.

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7 hours ago, Silvernon said:

Also an employer that arguably failed to provide the resources to protect you from suffering life-changing injuries. 

 

I have no problem with all that money headed his way. 

Ok Snowflake, free money for all?  You play, you pay.

giphy.gif

 

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If you need to see non mobile QBs who were around Haskins accuracy as a rookie, and saw drastic improvement later on, then it starts and ends w/ P. Manning (56.7)

If you want to consider that an outlier cool, I can give you more recent examples. They are all over the current NFL. These are all current players and I’ll only list a few, but the list is long.

 

M Stafford (53.3)

Tannihill (58.3)

Cousins* (2013 – 52.3)

Alex Smith (50.9)

Goff (54.6)

Carr (58.1)

 

While some of these guys can wheel, none really qualify as a real duel threat QB. Many of these guys were around Haskins accuracy level. More still were even worse. They all saw dramatic improvement.  

 

Just like with Allen, I don't care about their situation or what they can do that Haskin's can't. its just simple proof positive that with time and dedication Haskin's can improve his accuracy. It is not something you simply have or don't have, it can be acquired.  QBs have done it before him. They will do it after him. Its part of the growing process.

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8 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

Tebow had 652 rushing yards and 3 rushing touchdowns in his first ten starts.  He was terrible inaccurate, but he could scramble and run to make up for that.  Haskins can't scramble.

Tebow played football like it was rugby.  That's fine, if you want rugby.  Haskins is not going to start playing rugby.  What he should be doing is tossing 3 yarders to TE Montez Sweat and watch a 6'6/275/4.5 dynamo play bowling ball as he scatters opposing pins in his wake. 

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