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FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State


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6 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

Ahh, okay.  So the difference is $10.8mm?


his dead cap this year if cut is 32.2mil because he has a 16mil gtd salary plus 3x 5.4mil allocations of his original signing bonus that haven’t yet been posted through the cap.

 

if we retain him this year we put 21.4mil through this years cap because we pay him the 16mil whilst one of those 5.4mil allocations hits this year

 

therefore as we head into 2021, because his salary that year is not gtd the dead cap becomes only 10.8mil, basically the remaining 2x 5.4mil 

Edited by UK SKINS FAN 74
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4 hours ago, Gibbs828791 said:

I got news for you guys Kyle Allen is your starting qb. The competition with a short offseason wont even be close....mark it!

 

It will be close based on a 1st round pick vs UDFA with experience in the system. Even with the short offseason you must consider our free agent targets. We have filled out depth on the roster with prove it deals  This tells me the entire team is under evaluation.  You can add the evaluation speak that was given to Trent, Dunbar and Kerrigan in regard to extensions. This could also be why we havent prematurely signed several other pups to extensions. (Scherff, Allen etc)

 

To me if it is close Haskins gets the job. The organization needs to evaluate him and decide if he's the guy moving forward. It appears the organization has already recognized we wont heavily contend this year.

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9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

This is a dude who if I recall was Haskins QB coach for a short time during a camp

 

 

 

 

Im not buying it and frankly im tired of "analyst/scouts" repeating what they've read. Kyle Allen's Arm talent is not elite. Its in the Cousins category.

Folks... just start watching tape. Floated balls on the deep outs, wobbly ducks when his feet arent perfect, etc.

 

I like the kid and think he could be a really good backup, but it seems like somewhere along the line he built a rep as having elite arm talent, and he simply doesnt.

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1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Haskins pure physical talent blows Allen's out of the water.

 

Quarantining has turned people's brains into mush.


Agree. Allen has a strong arm but it’s not Haskins.

 

Im curious if the equalizer, though, is the mental side. But I’m not sure one way or another on that. 

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9 minutes ago, KDawg said:


Agree. Allen has a strong arm but it’s not Haskins.

 

Im curious if the equalizer, though, is the mental side. But I’m not sure one way or another on that. 


I think either way he’s good competition for Haskins. Close enough to threaten if he takes his foot off the gas. If that’s all coach was really going for it’s a great move. If he was looking for more, it’s certainly a good thing to have (competition) I think. 

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  Paul Troth is a QB coach, who actually worked with Haskins, he goes on NBC Washington from time to time to share his expertise on the QB position.   I've heard Troth talk about Haskins and his experience working with him, I don't recall him saying Haskins' arm is elite or not so not sure what he thinks on that front.   I know Troth though thinks Haskins is very talented. 

 

He's not a media talking head who just regurgitates what others say.  In fact that was part of his point.  His first reaction to it was to rehash what the local beat guys said which is Allen poses no threat to Haskins.  His point was after watching Allen, he changed his mind on that front based on actually watching the tape.  Now, we can disagree with him but his whole point was about now that he watched Allen his initial impression was wrong.

 

I've not been able to access NFL Game Pass (I keep getting error messages when I try to log in, I don't know if anyone here has had the same issues?) for the last few days to watch some full games of his.  From the clips I've seen on Youtube, his arm strength looks good.  Elite?  Probably not.  But certainly good enough.  But he doesn't have good touch-arc on some of his throws.

 

Now if its purely about what you read or hear.  It's all over the place on Kyle.  He's either the dude who was one of the most talented and recruited high school QBs in the country and is oozing with talent (BR Quoted is as the dude has a "cannon of an arm" ) and loaded with intangibles but just didn't put it together in college.  Or he's a noodle arm Rex Grossman Part 2. 

 

 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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From what I've watched Allen has a good arm. Not elite, but not bad at all. Haskins definitely above him there, though. Allen is a bit quicker and looks more athletic on boots and roll outs and he made some nice plays there last season. Footwork and mechanics is meh but so is Haskins. I mentioned it here before but one thing that really stood out to me was how on and off Allen was. Great game, awful game, great game, awful game. 

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Between free agency and the draft, there has been much ink dedicated to the idea that the Washington Redskins will look to either replace Dwayne Haskins or at least give him competition ahead of the 2020 NFL season. 

 

Head coach Ron Rivera has no ties to Haskins, who was drafted by the old regime, and this offseason has been an incredibly quarterback-rich environment with the draft still to come. Washington’s only move so far was to trade for Kyle Allen from the Carolina Panthers in a move that speaks simply to familiarity and contingency, not competition.

 

At No. 2 overall in the draft, the Redskins could take Alabama’s Tua Tagovailoa in a move reminiscent of what the Arizona Cardinals did a season ago, but there’s another future to consider — what if they believe Dwayne Haskins can be good, and what if they believe they’re set at quarterback?

 

The rush to write off Haskins has been strange in an era where the slightest glimmer of upside at the position usually has teams clinging desperately to potential, often to the detriment of reality. 

 

It’s not that the move to draft Tua would be, in isolation, a bad one — until you are certain you have a viable starting quarterback, the data says you should keep swinging — it’s just that the difference in attitude that many seem to have toward Haskins compared to the other second-year quarterbacks is difficult to justify.

 

Kyler Murray showed enough last year to not only convince Cardinals fans that it was the right move to swap Josh Rosen, but also that he is the answer long-term. The New York Giants fans are doing victory laps because of Daniel Jones’ rookie year, and the Jacksonville Jaguars just traded away Nick Foles — a year after handing him a hefty contract — having been sold on the notion that Gardner Minshew is a better bet for the future. Even the Broncos feel they finally have an answer in the form of Drew Lock

 

Only Minshew had a higher PFF grade than Haskins last season, and the three first-rounders plus Minshew all had a grade between 64.2 and 70.3 overall.

 

Obviously, Haskins did it on fewer snaps, so that grade is inherently more fragile — he had around half the dropbacks that Minshew, Jones and Murray did as rookies — but it’s still curious that the reaction to the performances is so different.

 

WHY IS THIS THE CASE?

Name PFF grade Dropbacks Big-time throws Turnover-worthy plays BTT% TWP%
Gardner Minshew 70.3 556 18 19 3.6% 3.8%
Dwayne Haskins 67.6 245 8 5 3.7% 2.3%
Daniel Jones 65.7 527 20 31 4.1% 6.3%
Kyler Murray 64.2 620 23 18 4.0% 3.1%

 

Part of the explanation comes from the rough start Haskins had to his NFL career. He looked poor in training camp, and there were reports that he was struggling to learn the team’s plays, which had been the thing keeping him off the field until Case Keenum was concussed and the switch was forced upon the team.

 

While Daniel Jones had to fight past Eli Manning to start, Washington had little reason not to turn to Haskins as soon as he was able for it, but they had to be forced into the move. When Haskins did finally first see NFL action, it seemed to be justification for the reluctance to start him in the first place. In just 28 dropbacks across the first two games, he accounted for four of the seven interceptions he threw as a rookie.

 

At that point, Haskins was fighting the pervasive narrative and fighting an uphill battle to change the story. After his first game, the New York Giants’ Twitter account was calling out draft takes, but Haskins hit the ground with an ugly thump and needed to slowly reverse opinions. The other thing hurting him is that his overall box score numbers from the season look worse than the play-by-play analysis of his game.

 

He had just seven touchdowns to seven picks, but he actually had fewer turnover-worthy plays than interceptions. Typically, those numbers work in reverse (defenders drop a lot of would-be picks, so the number of interceptions is usually lower than the number of plays that should have been turnovers). Daniel Jones, for example, had 31 turnover-worthy plays compared to just 12 interceptions. Murray had six more, and Minshew had 12 more. Haskins, in fact, was the only rookie passer to end up with more turnovers than turnover-worthy plays, and that skews the narrative.

 

Haskins actually had by far the lowest turnover-worthy play rate (2.3%) of any of those rookie passers. But of course, mistakes are only one part of the story. Avoiding mistakes but rarely making any big plays on the other side consigns a passer to life as a “game manager,” which in today’s league might as well be synonymous with “career backup.” 

 

Haskins was definitely too conservative at the start of his playing time, and overall, he ended the year with just seven touchdowns and eight big-time throws, but what’s interesting was how he opened up as the season wore on. Indeed, while it had been Terry McLaurin that had been looking like a star all year despite the quarterback play, suddenly he couldn’t haul in a couple of Haskins’ best throws.

 

McLaurin_Drop.gif

 

Take this play as an example. McLaurin wins on his release one-on-one at the line of scrimmage. This is a green light for any quarterback to put the ball in the air and give his receiver a chance to make the play, and Haskins does exactly that and throws an accurate deep pass to his top receiver. 

 

While McLaurin had been bailing out his quarterbacks all season long, on this occasion, he lets the ball sail right through his hands, giving Haskins an incompletion on the stat sheet where he should have had a big play. This isn’t to criticize McLaurin outside of this one play but instead serves as a reminder that the quality of the supporting cast is only ever a general guideline when it comes to evaluating quarterbacks. As much as McLaurin helped Haskins on the season, he hurt him on this particular play, and that’s why only the PFF grades can paint an accurate picture.

 

Overall, all of the rookies actually had remarkably similar big-time throw rates, and while Haskins (3.7%) was marginally behind Jones (4.1%) and Murray (4.0%), it was a far closer thing than just looking at the raw number of touchdowns — a number influenced by receivers, defenders, etc. — would have you believe, thanks to plays precisely like the one above.

Haskins didn’t have the best accuracy numbers from the group (fourth in adjusted completion rate, second to last in advanced ball-location charting accuracy), but he also had the highest average depth of target of the group (9.1 yards) and only Terry McLaurin when it came to reliable receiving options. 

 

From Week 13 onward, Haskins had an overall PFF grade of 78.0, six points higher than any other rookie (Jones at 72.2). This is a sample size of just 120 dropbacks, so from a statistical standpoint, it is a very unsound way of predicting anything, but it’s a notable data point given the context of uncertainty about Haskins’ ability.

 

There also seems to be the notion that Haskins just wasn’t that good a prospect to begin with, and so obviously a quarterback like Tua represents an obvious upgrade. I’m not so sure about that. Haskins has arm talent for days, and while there were issues with him as a prospect, talent is clearly there in abundance.

 

ARM TALENT

When you watch his tape, his arm talent jumps off the page. When he sees the play and lets fly, he has the ability to fit the ball into tight windows, and/or even deliver exceptionally accurate passes with touch. His arm even allows him to be a little late on throws, which happened more than once this season, and it buys him a little breathing room while the game slows down for him in a way some other young passers (Minshew) can’t rely on. 

 

McLaurin_to_Thompson.gif

 

Take a look at this shot to Chris Thompson against Carolina. The Panthers’ coverage bails into quarters, and the flat has linebacker Shaq Thompsonoccupying it, so Haskins is being faced with a closing window to fit in his pass from the far hash mark.

 

This is a big-boy NFL throw, the kind they try and simulate in the pre-draft process, because not every quarterback has the arm to get this pass in there. Haskins has it there with room to spare, and this was a feature of his high-end plays this season. He has the kind of arm to make special throws, and the sort of plays that would ordinarily excite fans and analysts alike, but for some reason, they aren’t being talked about nearly enough.

 

THE BOTTOM LINE

The bottom line is that none of the rookies really did enough to remove all doubt that they will be the future of their franchise for years to come. They all did good things and bad things, and while Haskins certainly did less of both due to his relative lack of playing time, it’s worth noting that when you look at the data points on a per-snap basis, he compares well to the others.

 

Washington has plenty of holes to fill on their roster, and if Tagovailoa medically checks out and is very much in play at No. 2 overall, they would likely be far better served to trade back and assemble draft picks to build around Haskins than they would be drafting his direct competition. 

 

Haskins showed plenty of flashes of why he was a first-round pick, and while his transition to the NFL may have been bumpier than that of some of his peers, he had only started in college for a relatively short period of time and is still early on in his development as a quarterback.

 

While everybody else is eager to imagine a future where he has competition for his job or a camp battle with Tagovailoa on his hands, I’m far more intrigued by imagining a future where the team gives him more than one reliable receiver to target, and we get to see him with another year of development under his belt. 

Edited by HTTRDynasty
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I dont get the argument that if its a short offseason, go with Kyle.  For what reason.  It would create a circus for no reason for a new head coach.  It would raise expectations.  

 

Start Haskins regardless of his level of comfort.  Just keep adding to the playbook each week

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That play above where McLaurin is nearly being smothered and the ball goes right through his hands is absolute proof that Haskins has the single-most important thing necessary for a QB to dominate the opposing defense:  the ability to throw the ball deep and put it exactly where it needs to go.  I'm not talking about just arm strength.  I'm not even talking about having arm strength and NOT being a head case.  You don't dominate the opposing defense by hitting a guy who managed to get wide open and still has to adjust so much that he almost doesn't make the catch and has no YAC.  I'm talking about throwing the bomb and hitting your guy perfectly in stride.  I'm talking about putting it where only he can get to it, and you know he normally can, so you don't shy from the throw.  On any given pass play, if one of your receivers is in position such that there is a place he can catch the ball deep if the ball is put there, and you can put the ball there so regularly that your coach will give you the green light every time, you are going to dominate.  Russ Grimm, attributing to his college OL coach, said "playing offensive line, there's no greater feeling than to be able to move a man from Point A to Point B against his will."  He didn't say, slow him down or redirect him, he basically said, "within the role of my position on my team, I'm going to physically impose my will on you".  A QB physically imposes his will on the other team when he throws the bomb and there's nothing the other team can do to stop it.  Joe Montana was one of the best at engineering drives.  He ran his offenses like a master class.  He didn't shatter the psyches of opposing DBs -- his teams may have, but that's different.  What are the 1991 Redskins remembered for as far as the character/identity of the team?  Going deep.  Mark Rypien putting the pigskin exactly where it had to be for a 5'9 WR with 4.6 speed to hit paydirt after tracking down a moonshot.  And he wasn't throwing them only when his target was wide open or in "might-as-well" plays (end of a half, 4th and long, etc.)  The QB who can accurately throw the bomb nearly at will wins games.  The QB who can drop the bomb with precision can unlock his receivers' special abilities (those receivers that have any -- it's like psionics for us Joe Gibbs I-era nerds).  Let's say you've got a guy who dominates jump balls -- he's got hops, perfect timing, long arms; everything.  There's the QB who can give him a chance to make a play; it's worth the risk.  Then there's the QB who takes the chance out of it -- he puts the ball where only his receiver, and no one else, will make the play.  You don't put regular tires on a race car and fill it up with regular gas.  You're wasting your car's capability.  You don't put speed-rated tires and 98 octane gas in a Honda Civic.  (You can, but you end up with Kirk Cousins throwing deep to Desean Jackson rather than Mark Rypien throwing to Ricky Sanders.  Cousins puts Jackson in position to make a spectacular play; Rypien puts Sanders in position to make an ordinary play.  That's why Rypien can flash the hardware.)  I am really excited to see what Haskins can develop into.

Edited by GothSkinsFan
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On 3/27/2020 at 7:34 AM, pcbothwel said:

 

Im not buying it and frankly im tired of "analyst/scouts" repeating what they've read. Kyle Allen's Arm talent is not elite. Its in the Cousins category.

Folks... just start watching tape. Floated balls on the deep outs, wobbly ducks when his feet arent perfect, etc.

 

I like the kid and think he could be a really good backup, but it seems like somewhere along the line he built a rep as having elite arm talent, and he simply doesnt.

 

People have been touting his arm strength as weak and as strong and both are wrong.

 

He can zip some balls in, especially on in-breaking routes. But he doesn't have an arm to put a ball on a line on an out pattern outside the boundary numbers. His arm is NFL adequate. Nothing more. Nothing less. 

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One would hope that Ron heard all the rumors about Haskins not preparing mentally without the push of being a starter, and decided to put fire under his ass and went to get a young QB with enough talent to be comparable to Haskins, enough talent to be a starter, one the OC likes a lot ans is familiar with and one who knows the system well already.....all to push him harder and if he fails you have your next guy ready to go already.  I really cant see how this ends up a bad move. Either Haskins steps up to the challenge and is as prepared mentally as he can be, or he fails and we have a talented young guy come in a beat the *Snyder pet for the spot and gets the fans behind him while he does it. I like both outcomes. Im still hoping Haskins is the guy. Hard for me not to root for him. But for once im excited about either outcome. And I dont think both will suck

 

*Im not calling him synders pet, just saying thats what the selling point will be if the other guy beats him

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I just watched a full Kyle Allen game for the first time, along with some other clips.   My take is I agree with Rivera's comments below he has a good arm.  Not great.  Better than average.   Not weak.   I see some compared it to Kirk.  Maybe.

 

I think the similarity to early years Kirk is this.  He's very decisive.  But actually IMO too decisive.  He knows where he wants to throw the ball and it's going there.  So if defenders can guess the route and or Kyle tries to fit it in too tight of a window -- its a problem.

 

He has good zip on the ball IMO but it sometimes comes off too flat.  His deep-intermediate throws at times remind me a bit of Jason Campbell in that you got enough zip typically but there isn't enough arc/touch on the ball to give time for the defender to get under the ball or adjust to it.

 

He's feisty and daring in the pocket, elusive at times, and can make something out of nothing with a broken down play but also the downside to that is he fumbles in the pocket.

 

Reading about him his intangibles are through the roof.  Seems like a cool guy with some charisma so I gather his teammates will like him.  He seems animated on the sidelines.  Sounds like he's a workaholic and can maybe work through his issues.  To me his main issue is decision making,  he needs to be smarter with the ball and less daring. 

 

I disagree with Rivera's comments about him being a good decision maker.  But I agree that he plays fast.  Quick release.  I'd think he'd thrive with the short game, not because he doesn't have the arm to do better than that but because he gets the ball in the hands of his playmakers fast.  I was watching the Redskins-Carolina game so it was interesting to juxtapose Haskins and Allen in the same game.  One advantage I'd give to Allen is in the short game, he's more decisive, gets the ball in the receivers-RB hands quicker.

 

I think Haskins can certainly beat Allen for the job.  But watching the two QBs juxtaposed in the same game, I didn't come away with the feeling that this will be a walk in the park for Haskins where he's got this slam dunk, no sweat.  So I agree with one of Haskins' old QB coaches, Paul Troth, that is this will be a battle.

 

I am far from in love with what I saw from Allen.  Like 2013-2014, Kirk, that dude IMO has to fix his turnover issues to make it as a starter in this league.  But heck if he does indeed do that, he has a chance. 

 

https://theriotreport.com/yeah-but-nothing-why-kyle-allen-shouldnt-be-overlooked/

He’s got a good arm, good decision maker, he plays fast – all the intangibles that you’re looking for in a quarterback,” said Ron Rivera. “When we saw him last year and watched him through training camp, [we] just kind of kept an eye on him – We had him, we let him go, we kept an eye on him and then we brought him back – he just seemed to pick everything right back up. And you feel confident that when he’s out there he’s gonna make good decisions.”

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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