FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[volsmet]

37 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

When I watch the Chiefs and what they've done with and for Mahomes I just dream of how Haskins and our offense could look. Andy Reid has surrounded Mahomes with speed and he looks downfield because he has the arm and the pocket presence to take deep shots. I hope this is what we are doing with Haskins. With McClauren, PRich, Steve Sims, Harmon, Davis and Quinn we have some good young options to support Dwayne's growth. Throw in the two backs and really all we need to do is build the line and sign/draft a TE. Do these things in free agency and the draft and next year should be really exciting to see provided DH is the real deal. 

 

Elite speed, big TE’s, & 3rd down backs ... glorious.

 

[wit33]

3 minutes ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 

This is one reason I am able to still remain excited about the direction of the team. I believe Riddick when he says that we’ve never had anything like HIM at the position in the building and I’m really impressed and quite honestly surprised we are taking a patient mature approach to developing him. But we’ve never had someone with his arm talent and seemingly willful dedication to master his craft (picking teams apart from the pocket). The receiving core looks exciting as well, a lot of speed. Can’t belive the defense has looked this dreadful, it’s honestly appalling with the talent on that side. So disappointing.

 

Haskins and the emergence overnight of the young and up and coming receiving core is extremely exciting. Not crazy to project a positive future on offense. 

 

The performance of the defense is shocking, you’d at least expect an average unit after last year, but it’s been bad. Was hoping they’d continue momentum into potentially being a top 10 type unit this year, while talent on the offense caught up. 

 

2 games in and a bad Bears offense may provide an opportunity for a return of some confidence. Need to get arrow trending up again for the defensive unit. 

[volsmet]

4 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Haskins and the emergence overnight of the young and up and coming receiving core is extremely exciting. Not crazy to project a positive future on offense. 

 

The performance of the defense is shocking, you’d at least expect an average unit after last year, but it’s been bad. Was hoping they’d continue momentum into potentially being a top 10 type unit this year, while talent on the offense caught up. 

 

2 games in and a bad Bears offense may provide an opportunity for a return of some confidence. Need to get arrow trending up again for the defensive unit. 

 

Need to get Preston Smith back, or average coaching.

 

[London Kev]

34 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Good post, with one pushback.

 

How many more vet QBs will we be bringing in that he has outperform with no hitting in camp?  A guy with only one year of college may never beat out a 7 year vet, at least not for a year or 2 once he gains the upperhand with better familiarity with the playbook. Assuming our coaching staff aka the playbook, stays intact (ha!)

 

At some point, I feel like you kinda have to play a guy you draft 15 OA, typically late in the year once the players have all checked out.  Wrong messages will fall on deaf ears, at that point.

 

I kind of agree with you. It could be argued that if we get to the end of the year and all the players have checked out, then that essentially is garbage time. We would have nothing to lose by giving the back-ups some playing time. But while we're still in the hunt, then we should play whoever gives us the best chance of winning.

 

The additional vet QBs angle is not so easy to reconcile and I need to give that some thought. But my initial gut feeling is to still go with the best player available on the team, although there are probably some hypothetical scenarios that could change my mind.

[NoCalMike]

The decision to sit Mahommes his first season was also a luxury that a playoff team had. 

 

We need to keep in mind that teams like Dallas & Kansas City were built pretty well before they drafted those QB's.  What Dak is doing in Dallas, you could probably put 20 NFL Qbs behind that O-line, with that running game, and they would replicate the success.  With KC, how many teams have 3-4 players that you can throw a 10 yard pass too and it is routine for them to turn it into a 40 yard gain? Not to mention both those teams have a good defense.

 

I am not saying the 'Skins can't eventually build that kind of roster if the front office gets their act together, but this expectation that "Oh if we just sit Haskins until this team is a contender first, then he will thrive by default" is really aiming for something that doesn't feel in reach in the immediate future.  

 

As far as the idea of waiting until the team is "mathematically eliminated" from the playoffs?  If the 'Skins lose tonight and go to 0-3, the odds they even are in the conversation are slim that includes if they beat the NYG & Dolphins, lose to the Patriots.  Best case scenario they are 2-4 at that point. However at this point I don't even feel safe suggesting they would beat NYG or the Dolphins....they could, and I will prob pick them to at least beat the dolphins, but there are no "gimmes" when you are the 'Skins.

 

If Alex Smith was the QB still, and hadn't taken that gruesome injury, then my opinion would be different because Alex Smith was signed and brought in to win. (Of course there is a chance they don't even draft Haskins had he not been injured, but for the sake of this conversation, let's say they did).  With the Giants, the situation was different, they just benched a franchise QB for Jones.  The 'Skins currently have a journeyman QB starting who has had a total of 1 season of impressive play, which was on a roster with a better everything than this team  has.  I wouldn't be broken up much if the coaching staff came to the conclusion that the team was going nowhere with him at QB, even if Case specifically wasn't the main reason.  

I guess the overall point is when does it become about the big picture over this specific season. Some are suggesting not until the team is mathematically eliminated. I disagree. 

 

[DJHJR86]

23 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

The decision to sit Mahommes his first season was also a luxury that a playoff team had. 

 

I remember when the Chiefs started 6-2 before losing 4 straight games that people wanted Mahomes to start.  They probably would've made it past the wild card round had they benched Smith.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2746124-chiefs-must-bench-alex-smith-in-order-to-save-season 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

When we give a player something like a second round grade, we're baking into that grade a guess about how the rest of the league values the player.  QB is kind of funny because the markets are so binary and limited.  Every QB is basically a yes/no proposition for a team, and in most years, most teams will have a no on virtually every first or second round caliber QB.  So let's say you've got a yes on a QB that most teams are grading in the 20-50 range.  But say you are pretty sure that there are four other teams out there that also have him as a yes, and they each pick in the top ten and teens.  You know you desperately need to get a QB for your coach, and you really like the way this kid fits.  If you're a brilliant drafter, then you have your finger on the pulse of the league too, and you can make the moves to get into the natural range for your guy and utilize the value of your picks.  But you also have to be OK with not landing your guy, which is not a luxury that most GMs have.  So I can understand why Gettleman just went ahead and pulled the trigger on Jones at 6.  Yeah it's a pretty big reach, and year he probably could have maneuvered around and gotten Jones late in the first and come away with a blue chip defender like Josh Allen.  But reaching at QB is not a big sin because the absolute worst thing you can do is to never get one.

 

My bigger complaint is that he graded Jones higher than Haskins and Lock, when in my opinion Lock was meaningfully better and Haskins was way better.  But a lot of QB evaluation comes down to fit rather than being a judgement about ability-level in a vacuum, and if you determine that a kid is a great fit for your organization, then you can stomach picking him over a greater individual talent.  That can come back to haunt you though.  Chicago is going to learn that soon.

 

According to multiple NY reporters the Giants had Lock graded just a hair behind Jones but they didn't have Haskins graded highly so he wasn't in conversation but it was a struggle for them between those two QBs -- Jones and Lock.

 

Haskins himself revealed in an interview on draft night that he knew he wasn't going to be taken by the Giants. So I gather his agent got wind of it.  Reddick also mentioned it on NFL live close to the draft (or maybe it was someone else on that show, don't recall) saying on one show that he's getting a sense that the Giants are out on Haskins but he knows one team is really into Haskins -- it gave me the impression that team was the Redskins.

 

If you follow Haskins on social media he was all over wanting the Giants to draft him, he would sometimes balance it out with other teams but he was heavy handed pushing the Giants.  A Giants reporter even wrote an article about how much Haskins was pleading for the Giants to draft him.

 

As a Yankees fan I read the NY sports pages a lot.  So I get the backdrop of the Jones-Haskins dynamic that I think will add some to this rivalry.   Haskins the long time Giants fan not wanted by his childhood team., etc. 

 

Yeah for me I liked Murray first, then Lock, then Haskins.  Then I had a bunch of Qbs grouped in a similar range including Jones and Finley and then others like Stidham.   Is Jones looking better than I thought he would?  Yes.  But in a weird way for me.  That is, he is displaying everything I've said about him -- thrives on short passes, not intermediate or long passes, is gutsy and can run, decent but not great arm strength, turnover prone.  I've seen all of the above thus far.  But his accuracy in the short-quick game has been better than good -- he's been insanely accurate on that front.  That has surprised me.  Having said that, it's a short sample size.   

 

People IMO are going too far as to crowning Jones and apologizing for not thinking he'd be good.   He's gone from being a national joke to now we are witnessing the next Patrick Mahomes -- its been a nauseating over reaction.  I can't wait for the matchup against the Redskins.  I'd bring on the heat.  Tampa's pass rush was atrocious.  Either that or the NY Giants really solidified their O line.    They have a really good interior now.  I loved Will Hernandez years back in that draft.   Jones is tough in the pocket (unlike Eli) and wasn't in fazed in college by the pass rush but he still played poorly when he was pressured, regardless.  We haven't seen the INTs, yet.  but we are seeing his fumble issues early on. 

 

Personally I didn't think Jones would be a bust.  I just didn't think he'd be special and when I combined that with what I perceived to him having a weird personality -- he didn't float my boat.  I liked Lock better.  Lock to me has much more upside.  I think Lock has some bust potential too but the dude has wheels, has a rocket arm, can throw from different arm angles, etc.    I was back and forth on Haskins, first liked him, then not so much, now I am somewhat upbeat but not fully sold. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, volsmet said:

I liked Jones more than Haskins... & I didn’t particularly care for Jones.

 

I wasn't in love at the end with either one.  But I recall saying Haskins > Jones.  As for Jones, under pressure, I could have sworn I saw some stats that showed he struggled.  Yeah as far as raw ability in that context -- the dude is a tough SOB, pressure doesn't faze him and he evades it well.  I said so predraft, too.  But he from what I recall was mistake prone under pressure unless I am misremembering.   I got to find my old notes about Jones, some I recall, some stuff I don't.

[RWJ]

Jones has played in one game.  Let's see how the rest of the season plays out.  Redskins are fortunate to let Haskins sit back and learn under Keenum and ask him questions along with Smith and absorb info before playing.  Just my 2 cents. 

[volsmet]

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I wasn't in love at the end with either one.  But I recall saying Haskins > Jones.  As for Jones, under pressure, I could have sworn I saw some stats that showed he struggled.  Yeah as far as raw ability in that context -- the dude is a tough SOB, pressure doesn't faze him and he evades it well.  I said so predraft, too.  But he from what I recall was mistake prone under pressure unless I am misremembering.   I got to find my old notes about Jones, some I recall, some stuff I don't.

 

Jones & Haskins have impressed people and I liked neither, I was making fun of myself. 

 

I think Jones will be fine, but my issue with a first round QB is that if he’s decent, you’ll end up paying him like Goff/Winston. I don’t like paying QBs, I don’t think it’s necessary until you find that one rare guy. Haskins didn’t prove he was that to even his own college coaches, Jones has his limitations, Lock is a combination of Jones/Haskins ...which I like, and Rosen was the cheapest & only one who had proven he could find some success, in the nfl, with coaches & talent that were atrocious.

 

As AZ did, I’d ship out a first round qb instantly if I could replace a guy I thought was ok with a transcendent talent .... but otherwise I’m taking the Keenum/Matt Moore route & drafting a QB I like later on. A QB needs to make up for so many deficiencies if he’s going to be worth elite money ... even Rodgers has struggled to make up for roster flaws.

 

Bring on the bums, let Alex Smith & Kirk pose as studs for someone else.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

 

I think Jones will be fine, but my issue with a first round QB is that if he’s decent, you’ll end up paying him like Goff/Winston. I don’t like paying QBs, I don’t think it’s necessary until you find that one rare guy. Haskins didn’t prove he was that to even his own college coaches, Jones has his limitations, Lock is a combination of Jones/Haskins ...which I like, and Rosen was the cheapest & only one who had proven he could find some success, in the nfl, with coaches & talent that were atrocious.

 

 

You've been consistent on that point which is don't pay good QBs big money, only pay the great ones.    I see the point.  I think for me I've seen so much QB play in DC that was below average that its hard for me to downplay "good" QBs as if they are easy to find.  But to your point maybe they are easier to find now.

 

We way overpaid for Alex Smith who I thought was "meh" albeit he is a great guy.  Case thus far has been a much better find IMO considering they didn't have to give up anything to get him, they are paying him little and thus far he's arguably outplayed the 2018 version of Alex.  I liked Kirk but I didn't want to pay him 27 million albeit I didn't let the FO off the hook for it because I think they could have resigned him for less if they were proactive or if they wanted to move on then trade for him.  Don't lose the dude for a ham sandwich.   McNabb was below average.  Ditto, Rex, Beck, Campbell, Brunell, Ramsey, Spurrier's UF Qbs, Friez, Shuler, etc.  Gus was maybe average.  So I am a bit jaded on the idea of taking good for granted. 

 

But maybe you are on to something.  Keenum looks ideal on that front -- they gave up nothing for him and he's cheap.  It would be ironic if Keenum brought back the same return that they got for Kirk -- a 3rd round comp pick.    To me they've misplayed QB left and right.  But Keenum might be the one they got right albeit he's not the long term future.  Now that I said that I probably jinxed the poor sap.  😀

 

Bringing this back to QBs in the draft.  Yeah I am with you, I want upside.  I liked Lock's upside as much as you but I seemed more fearful about his downside.  But yeah I'd have had no problem at all with them taking Lock.   

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, RWJ said:

Jones has played in one game.  Let's see how the rest of the season plays out.  Redskins are fortunate to let Haskins sit back and learn under Keenum and ask him questions along with Smith and absorb info before playing.  Just my 2 cents. 

 

Joey T, granted can be a loon, was really downplaying just now that game from Jones saying its night and day when teams have the opportunity to start game planning for a QB once they see what they are dealing with.

 

The irony to that is the first one up who can game plan against Jones is Manusky.  He has some tape on it him now from the regular season. 

[ThomasRoane]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Joey T, granted can be a loon, was really downplaying just now that game from Jones saying its night and day when teams have the opportunity to start game planning for a QB once they see what they are dealing with.

 

The irony to that is the first one up who can game plan against Jones is Manusky.  He has some tape on it him now from the regular season. 

 

Ah, the Manusky game plan. 

 

First half:  Play well on first and second downs.  Give up long TDs on 3rd and long.

Second half:  Slow down the opponent's offense by forcing them to settle for 5 plus yards per carry up the middle.  Pray they get tired from running so much.   

[Koolblue13]

5 hours ago, volsmet said:

 

Elite speed, big TE’s, & 3rd down backs ... glorious.

 

I've begged first round for 3 years to address TE. A Witten type. Nothing better for a young QB than someone who's a big reliable target for tough downs and a blocker in the run game.

[NoCalMike]

Build an offense like the Cowboys have, then I understand the "don't need to pay a QB" view.   If the Cowboys go and pay Dak as much as he is supposedly asking for they are nuts.  They can likely replicate what Dak is doing with almost any starter in the NFL....(I said almost, so lets not just try to name the worst 5 or so to prove a point, mmkay?)

[757SeanTaylor21]

1 hour ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

Ah, the Manusky game plan. 

 

First half:  Play well on first and second downs.  Give up long TDs on 3rd and long.

Second half:  Slow down the opponent's offense by forcing them to settle for 5 plus yards per carry up the middle.  Pray they get tired from running so much.   

 

😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂🤣🤣

 

The manusky game plan

.

I'm done

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You've been consistent on that point which is don't pay good QBs big money, only pay the great ones.    I see the point.  I think for me I've seen so much QB play in DC that was below average that its hard for me to downplay "good" QBs as if they are easy to find.  But to your point maybe they are easier to find now.

 

We way overpaid for Alex Smith who I thought was "meh" albeit he is a great guy.  Case thus far has been a much better find IMO considering they didn't have to give up anything to get him, they are paying him little and thus far he's arguably outplayed the 2018 version of Alex.  I liked Kirk but I didn't want to pay him 27 million albeit I didn't let the FO off the hook for it because I think they could have resigned him for less if they were proactive or if they wanted to move on then trade for him.  Don't lose the dude for a ham sandwich.   McNabb was below average.  Ditto, Rex, Beck, Campbell, Brunell, Ramsey, Spurrier's UF Qbs, Friez, Shuler, etc.  Gus was maybe average.  So I am a bit jaded on the idea of taking good for granted. 

 

But maybe you are on to something.  Keenum looks ideal on that front -- they gave up nothing for him and he's cheap.  It would be ironic if Keenum brought back the same return that they got for Kirk -- a 3rd round comp pick.    To me they've misplayed QB left and right.  But Keenum might be the one they got right albeit he's not the long term future.  Now that I said that I probably jinxed the poor sap.  😀

 

Bringing this back to QBs in the draft.  Yeah I am with you, I want upside.  I liked Lock's upside as much as you but I seemed more fearful about his downside.  But yeah I'd have had no problem at all with them taking Lock.   

 

Kirk is a bum who many thought was good. He was always a bum. I wasn’t here for those debates, I only began posting in time to thrash the Smith trade & express that I was likely alone in not wanting Smith or Cousins here.

 

Nobody in the nfl had Keenum rated in the same class as Kirk or Alex Smith ... Keenum has been better for us than either & Keenum was better for Minny than Kirk. 

 

Has Rodgers won as much as Keenum over the last 2 years? The nfl is getting easier on QBs by the hour, there isn’t nearly as much a qb needs to take on, there aren’t nearly as many instances where he needs to be perfect. 

 

I’ll take Tyrod, Hoyer, & Keenum for nothing over Alex/Kirk for their ridiculous contracts... it’s not particularly close. You can’t pay average QBs, but you can play & win with them; you simply can’t have these guys taking up 1/7th of your cap. Jacoby is as average as QBs get, on a good day... and Indi is fine because they can protect him. The money thrown away is what keeps these teams from winning..... Wilson wasn’t better on his rookie contract than he is now, he’s just not worth the money. Few are. Wilson for 15 million... I’d trade a first for it — Wilson for $35 million, I’d rather put Geron Christian in the wild cat & take my chances.

 

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Joey T, granted can be a loon, was really downplaying just now that game from Jones saying its night and day when teams have the opportunity to start game planning for a QB once they see what they are dealing with.

 

The irony to that is the first one up who can game plan against Jones is Manusky.  He has some tape on it him now from the regular season. 

 

The game plan isn’t as detrimental as the new routine... being the starter every week, in the nfl, is absolutely insane. That’s part of the reason I’d play DH every other week. Let him play & give him 2 weeks to let it set in & get prepared for his next start. That’s the correct thing to do, but the humans aren’t ready for it yet.

 

 

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

Build an offense like the Cowboys have, then I understand the "don't need to pay a QB" view.   If the Cowboys go and pay Dak as much as he is supposedly asking for they are nuts.  They can likely replicate what Dak is doing with almost any starter in the NFL....(I said almost, so lets not just try to name the worst 5 or so to prove a point, mmkay?)

 

Dak suddenly became an mvp with a #1 wr & the best Oline in football healthy. Silly cowboys, they should trade him, but, humans.

 

[Koolblue13]

Vols, nice post. I've been asking for case since before the first tag. ****ing dumb.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

 

I only began posting in time to thrash the Smith trade & express that I was likely alone in not wanting Smith or Cousins here.

 

 

Disagree about the Kirk bum stuff but it's neither here nor there though.  😀  But paying him 27 million was too much but that was Bruce IMO misplaying his hand to get there.  So I blame him for reaching that point not Kirk or his agent for simply playing the hand that was given them.   As for the Alex stuff.  I was one of the loudest critics of the trade.  I trashed the idea before it even happened as the worst cast scenario for that

 

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

 

 

I’ll take... Keenum for nothing over Alex/Kirk for their ridiculous contracts... it’s not particularly close.

 

Agree if Keenum keeps playing like this.  But I am jinxing it if I keep talking it up.  I liked Keenum a lot in the Rams Hard Knocks series, seemed like a cool dude who worked hard.   But he's not had a smooth career save the 2017 season.  

 

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

Wilson wasn’t better on his rookie contract than he is now, he’s just not worth the money.

I'd take Wilson but yeah I agree that aside from Rodgers, Mahomes, Brees, Brady, no one is worth 30 million plus unless the cap really goes bonkers high.

 

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

 

 

Dak suddenly became an mvp with a #1 wr & the best Oline in football healthy. Silly cowboys, they should trade him, but, humans.

 

 

I'd kill for the cowboys O line, Eagles O line, too. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I've begged first round for 3 years to address TE. A Witten type. Nothing better for a young QB than someone who's a big reliable target for tough downs and a blocker in the run game.

 

Koolblue was the OJ Howard dude among others years back -- I was the TJ Hockenson guy last year.  Jay even made a big deal in the off season about they have one dimensional TEs who telegraph runs-passes and suggested it needs to be fixed.   Yet their solution was to do nada.

 

 

 

 

I am guessing the Jordan Reed situation finally forces their hand next off season.

 

 

[volsmet]

On 8/23/2019 at 7:25 PM, volsmet said:

 

We will get shredded through the air, imo. Our LBs & safeties can’t cover, our #1 corner is Dunbar & our #2 is probably Jimmy... Norman is awful, our LBs are atrocious, our DTs can’t impact the passing game with enough regularity to win much.

 

Norman on #1s will mean Cooper is always open. What Ertz & Desean will do to us ... 

 

[Rogue Jedi]

He should start after the patriots game.

 

We will be 0-5, and Keenum most likely will have more int’s than TDs by that point.

 

I was all in favor of having him sit, but the training wheels need to come off at some point, and I don’t want Haskins to have his first start in 2020 while Daniel Jones is getting game experience.

 

This season is a lost cause already, might as well get the growing pains out of the way. It’s literally the only thing to salvage from the season.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

If I’m counting correctly, this is the 21st season under Snyder and if Haskins starts a game this year, we will have had 21 different starting QB’s during that time.

[DJHJR86]

12 hours ago, volsmet said:

I’ll take Tyrod, Hoyer, & Keenum for nothing over Alex/Kirk for their ridiculous contracts... it’s not particularly close. You can’t pay average QBs, but you can play & win with them; you simply can’t have these guys taking up 1/7th of your cap.

 

We haven't won a single game with Keenum.  This is the new NFL where you have to pay average to above average QB's ridiculous contracts.  Because with our defense we won't win anything without one.

[RandyHolt]

I wonder if there was any magic number of turnovers that would have had Jay turn to Haskins.

 

5 by halftime, or ?

 

It was a bad night to put Haskins in. Not because of the abuse the Bears DL imposed on our OL.   It was bad because Jay is clueless with how to adjust his game plan to handle his OL getting worked over.