2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[Going Commando]

Thinking about Okudah vs Simmons and I think I'm settling on Okudah over Simmons.  He's got that dog in him that Simmons doesn't have.  There was a moment in the NC game where Edwards-Helaire or another ball carrier was fighting for extra yards after a DB tackled him out beyond the numbers.  Simmons is closing on them and he thinks Edwards-Helaire is down so he jumps over top of him to avoid contact.  But he wasn't down and he got a couple of extra yards.  Time was, if a linebacker or safety as big as Simmons saw a ball carrier as a sitting duck trying to stay up like that, he would bury him in the ground.

 

Simmons isn't wired that way.  You see him out there helping his opponents up.  Never really taunting.  After he got whacked by that cheap shot from that climbing guard out on the sideline, he wasn't hot.  He got up kind of complaining about it in a pained way, but he didn't respond to it at all.  That **** would have had me in that ****er's face mask ready to go.  He is a nice kid who plays a very clean style of football.  Reminds me very much of Tremaine Edmunds in that way.  I don't think he's ever had to play chippy because of how much bigger he is then the guys he matches up with.

 

Okudah OTOH plays violent football.  He is a true dog and he plays with an edge.

 

When you're talking about top ten picks, part of what you're drafting are your future leaders.  If the value between two guys is similar, give me the guy who can be a tone setter for a nasty team.  I would much rather see the Giants draft Simmons than Okudah.

[method man]

@stevemcqueen1 What is your take on AJ Dillon? 
 

As part of bringing a great rushing attack back to DC, this team needs a great FB again and we had a bunch in the last 20 years from Centers to Sellers to D. Young. Burton is a JAG and, because the FB position has been so devalued, getting a stud there should not be expensive from draft capital POV. You see the Ravens have Ricard and the 9ers have Juczczyk, who are both studs obtained on the cheap

 

Dillon looks like an athletic stud for the position that weighs in around 250 and will run a 4.5. Per the scouting reports, he can run, catch and pass block. I just have no idea if he can run block

 

Because we are also worried about Guice’s and Love’s health, he can always shift to tailback if needed given his skillset and athleticism

[KDawg]

13 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

  Reminds me very much of Tremaine Edmunds in that way. 

 

 

And he's one of the best LBs in football at the moment. 

 

I can't fault anyone for wanting Okudah more than Simmons. These guys are all so close that it makes sense.

 

And physically, I agree somewhat. But its easy to get a penalty in today's game... and being more conservatively wired helps to prevent unnecessary penalties in today's style of football.

 

But man, I agree with you, too... I love seeing a guy that doesn't take crap and jams it back down your throat.

 

And I saw the play you referenced here RE: Simmons and I thought the exact same.

[Going Commando]

Dan Orlovsky on Mike and Mike this morning was talking about what the Titans need to do to fool Mahomes this weekend, and when I couple what he said with what I've observed from the really good secondaries this year, like Green Bay's and San Francisco's and New England's, I think we really need to rethink the way we label safeties and corners.  The great secondaries are full of generalist DBs who are kind of separated by whether they are capable of credibly lining up in man coverage on receivers on the outside, or if they're credible box defenders.  I don't think there is room for a DB in a great secondary who can't do at least one of those two roles.

 

Orlovsky's point was that there is no hope for fooling Patrick Mahomes in an offense like Kansas City's where you tip your coverage pre-snap with the alignments of your DBs and LBs.  No one puts a corner on a running back or tight end split out wide unless they're playing zone, etc.  But what if your secondary is full of DBs who can play safety or corner?  Of guys like Delpit and McKinney?  That's what the Packers have, and it makes them very tough to decipher in the spread and motion era and you saw Russell Wilson, one of the smartest and greatest QBs in the league, fall behind early against them.

 

We also just saw Clemson get diced by a similar passing offense to Kansas City's in large part because they struggled to disguise their coverages and match up with the multiplicity in LSU's alignments and packages.  Guys like Tanner Muse and Nolan Turner just aren't going to get it done against an NFL caliber passing game.

 

I understand that we're very probably going to draft Chase Young, and that's fine.  He'd be a great pick.  He'd pretty much sort out our front and help circumvent coverage issues by reducing the duration of pockets.  He is a tremendous weapon and the no-brainer pick if we stay at #2.  Literally, we should not consider any other option there if we're stuck drafting at that spot because the only upside to that is doing something dumb.  And it's not like he wouldn't let us do some really cool things with our defense like lining Jonathan Allen and/or Montez Sweat up outside of him on pass downs, twisting him with Payne and IO, so on and so forth.  We could use Chase in the exact same way Oregon used Kayvon Thibedeaux to destroy Utah.

 

But outside of that pick, I think we really need to work on building our secondary, or else we're never going to get to being a top five defense.  We had all of this intriguing young talent in the position group a year ago, but Stroman got hurt, Holsey and Alexander got cut, and Moreau isn't panning out.  Neither is Nicholson.  We're in a situation where we've only really got four guys who are worth moving forward with.  It's also a chance to build the secondary the right way, with multiplicity in mind.  DBs who can come down and play linebacker in the box and still man cover the slot or drop into deep zones like K'Von Wallace and Kary Vincent.  Or DBs who can man cover wide outs/tight ends or play inside and outside zones like as well as set the edge against the run like Okudah and Henderson and McKinney and Delpit.  I want us to be able to put a guy like McKinney out on a running back or tight end lined up wide of the numbers and make them think we're playing man when we're really playing zone.  I also want us to be able to put a "corner back" type player on a tight end or back in such a situation and still be able to play man.

[Anselmheifer]

8 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Thinking about Okudah vs Simmons and I think I'm settling on Okudah over Simmons.  He's got that dog in him that Simmons doesn't have.  There was a moment in the NC game where Edwards-Helaire or another ball carrier was fighting for extra yards after a DB tackled him out beyond the numbers.  Simmons is closing on them and he thinks Edwards-Helaire is down so he jumps over top of him to avoid contact.  But he wasn't down and he got a couple of extra yards.  Time was, if a linebacker or safety as big as Simmons saw a ball carrier as a sitting duck trying to stay up like that, he would bury him in the ground.

 

Simmons isn't wired that way.  You see him out there helping his opponents up.  Never really taunting.  After he got whacked by that cheap shot from that climbing guard out on the sideline, he wasn't hot.  He got up kind of complaining about it in a pained way, but he didn't respond to it at all.  That **** would have had me in that ****er's face mask ready to go.  He is a nice kid who plays a very clean style of football.  Reminds me very much of Tremaine Edmunds in that way.  I don't think he's ever had to play chippy because of how much bigger he is then the guys he matches up with.

 

Okudah OTOH plays violent football.  He is a true dog and he plays with an edge.

 

When you're talking about top ten picks, part of what you're drafting are your future leaders.  If the value between two guys is similar, give me the guy who can be a tone setter for a nasty team.  I would much rather see the Giants draft Simmons than Okudah.

 

I love Okudah and maybe he would be the better choice. I think both are likely future pro-bowlers. I might take Simmons though. I keep coming back to total resource allocation, including draft, free agency and trades. Very good and great CB's and safeties are available in FA and by trade every year. If our team was further along for instance, we could have had our DL plus Marcus Peters and/or Minkah Fitzpatrick this year. You don't generally see guys like Simmons become available, just because there are less of them.

 

On another note, I've read the Jack Del Rio comments and listened to his interviews. He sounds like he likes our LB's. While I disagree, I wouldn't look for us to make any big additions at that spot, unless what he said was a smokescreen. He did not say anything about liking our secondary at all. 

[Going Commando]

32 minutes ago, method man said:

 What is your take on AJ Dillon? 

 

He's a running back.  I think he'd be wasted as a fullback.  He's pure power.  I'd be kind of surprised if he ran 4.5 because he looks a little slower than that on film.  He's a rumbler who can take quite a long time to gather himself and gear up, and I think the lack of acceleration could be an issue for him in the NFL.  But he can create space with his lateral cuts and he is a very difficult tackle because of his superlative combination of balance and raw power.  His legs are absolutely ridiculous, that 250 pounds he carries is all in those legs, and he isn't sloppy at all.  He's built like the huge version of Michael Turner/Nick Chubb.  His vision is good too.  I find myself surprised with the creases he finds and reaches or slips through.  And any time he wins the edge it's going to be a chunk play because college DBs just can't get him down.

 

I really like him a lot and I think he could be a very valuable pick in the mid rounds.  Early day three would be nice.

[KDawg]

@stevemcqueen1

 

Your point about generalizing, I absolutely agree. But not just at DB. Across the board. At all positions. The more well rounded everyone is, the better off the team is. You can really change it up and mess with opposing teams extremely easily.

 

This is where Simmons' has more value to me than Okudah. Okudah is extremely flexible at corner with coverages, and can probably play in the slot or outside. But Simmons is more flexible in general. OLB, ILB in Nickel if necessary, free safety on a whim (not every down, but a change of pace), slot corner. That's why I love him so much as a prospect.

 

This is why Chase Young has such tremendous value (as you described). Inside, outside, stunts. On a rare occasion he could even zone blitz. As much as I hated Sweat dropping, he could rarely zone blitz as well, which gives us great flexibility to try some new things and keep offenses guessing.  

 

This is where running backs have such fantastic value. Derrick Henry doesn't catch many passes, but man... he can. Receivers that can break free versus man/zone are ultra important. Quarterbacks that can run/pass are en vogue. 

 

Flexibility is the name of the game in the NFL. Across the board. At all positions. 

 

Generalists mean more now than ever with the modern onset of passing games. 

 

We may have different ways that we'd get there, but I think we're in agreement.

 

One thing we can't do, though, is keep trying to sign man corners and have them play off the ball with cushions in zone. Or sign zone guys and ask them to man up. 

[Going Commando]

48 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

And he's one of the best LBs in football at the moment. 

 

I can't fault anyone for wanting Okudah more than Simmons. These guys are all so close that it makes sense.

 

And physically, I agree somewhat. But its easy to get a penalty in today's game... and being more conservatively wired helps to prevent unnecessary penalties in today's style of football.

 

But man, I agree with you, too... I love seeing a guy that doesn't take crap and jams it back down your throat.

 

And I saw the play you referenced here RE: Simmons and I thought the exact same.

 

Yeah, Edmunds is an unbelievable talent.  He's got that same kind of presence that Simmons has that can basically neutralize most running backs from the offense. You're not winning short yardage against them.  You're not even going to be a speed-bump as a running back trying to pick up their blitz.  And you're not going to catch anything against that length.

 

Guys like them are great players who can go a long way towards making the field smaller for the offense.  And you're right that there is definite value to not being a knucklehead and getting yourself in trouble when the team relies on you.  We saw what happened to Clemson's defense when they lost Skalski.  It would have been completely hopeless if it had been Simmons that got tossed.

 

But I also think there is value in having your best players also be your tone-setters.  Like Kuechly or Jamal Adams or Khalil Mack.  It's more of an intangible cultural thing that I think gets the less talented guys to play with that crucial swagger and self-belief.  That's why I wish Simmons was meaner.

 

It's not a real knock though.  I'd only use the consideration as a tie-breaker as I think he and Okudah are basically even in value and potential.  They're freaks who could become future All-Pros.

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Yeah, Edmunds is an unbelievable talent.  He's got that same kind of presence that Simmons has that can basically neutralize most running backs from the offense. You're not winning short yardage against them.  You're not even going to be a speed-bump as a running back trying to pick up their blitz.  And you're not going to catch anything against that length.

 

Guys like them are great players who can go a long way towards making the field smaller for the offense.  And you're right that there is definite value to not being a knucklehead and getting yourself in trouble when the team relies on you.  We saw what happened to Clemson's defense when they lost Skalski.  It would have been completely hopeless if it had been Simmons that got tossed.

 

But I also think there is value in having your best players also be your tone-setters.  Like Kuechly or Jamal Adams or Khalil Mack.  It's more of an intangible cultural thing that I think gets the less talented guys to play with that crucial swagger and self-belief.  That's why I wish Simmons was meaner.

 

It's not a real knock though.  I'd only use the consideration as a tie-breaker as I think he and Okudah are basically even in value and potential.  They're freaks who could become future All-Pros.

 

I absolutely want guys who have some 'dog' in em.. and you reference leaders.  We have a 'dog' on defense that is already the leader.  Allen.  That guy refuses to lose, and he literally got the Bruce Smith style facemask because it's a tribute to those nasty d-lineman in history.  Landon Collins has that.  

 

When i see Simmons... i see a guy who can change the ability for the QB to do his job.  Young can possibly do that as well.  I LOVE Okudah, and if we draft him, i'm not going to be complaining, but if i'm looking at Simmons vs Okudah, i'm taking Simmons.  QBs will have to ALWAYS account where Simmons is.  Matchup advantages are the name of the game, and Simmons can negate A LOT of those.  He's big enough to cover a TE in man to man, and he's fast enough to stick with a WR. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be an LB and lead the team in TFL AND Pass Def... are you serious?   Converting to a 4-3, what is the BEST front 7 we could be looking at, and this is an honest question.

 

ILB: Holcomb

OLB:  Simmons / Hamilton or Foster

DE: Sweat / Allen rotating Kerrigan

DT: Payne / Ioannidis rotating Settle

 

or 

 

ILB: Holcomb

OLB: Foster / Hamilton

DE: Sweat / Allen rotating Kerrigan

DT: Payne / Ioannidis rotating Settle

 

 

Either way it can be a very powerful unit... 

[Fresh8686]

 

[skinny21]

@stevemcqueen1 First off - agreed about Young

 

I would be quite happy to land Okudah or Simmons.  You make a good case about the mentality angle.  

If Okudah becomes the player he’s projected to be at the pro level, you’re locking down a receiver, possibly freeing up a safety, helping to buy to your line time to pressure the qb, and helping your backers in terms of run support.  Coverage was a huge sore spot for us last year.  

 

Simmons, OTOH, offers that versatility you talked about - that ability to play chess with opposing qbs/OCs - and helps vs the run and the pass (coverage and pressure).

If in a position to choose between those two, it comes down 3 things (for me):

1) FA - if we land a starting caliber corner to pair with Dunbar (Moreland competing with Johnson and maybe Stroman? in the slot).  Moreau and a draft pick/UDFA/someone else currently on the roster compete for the backup spot.  Conversely, I don’t see us finding/adding a good linebacker via FA.  
2) Interviews - what coaches and teammates say, how those two carry themselves.  
3) Exactly how does Del Rio feel about our backers?  I’ve maintained that I like the variance and potential we have with this group, but outside of Foster (big question mark there though), I don’t have complete confidence in any of these guys to fill any of our line backing spots.  If Del Rio watches film on these guys and think he’s got answers, great... 

 

 

Edit:  I’ll add that part of the decision would hinge on Del Rio’s plan for Simmons.  If he sees him as a SAM or Mike and plans to only play him in one of those spots, we’re not getting the most out of him.  If he sees endless possibilities, then Simmons becomes a major asset.  I would worry about how much an injury to him would limit our D calls, but you can’t always account/factor that issue.  BTW, I think JHC would be that backup.  I see him as a bit of a Simmons-Lite (big emphasis on Lite).  

[volsmet]

14 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said:

With Kuechly retiring, I wonder if the Panthers draft Simmons. Either way, I think they’re trading Cam and tanking for Trevor. 
 

 

All they’d need to do is start Will Grier.

 

[OVCChairman]

 

 

good lord.... i guess we're not the only ones putting them both in the same conversation

[volsmet]

9 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Hey @volsmet, any thoughts on the other TE Bryant?

 

 

PFF:

 

BEST RUN-BLOCKING TE: HARRISON BRYANT, FAU

Bryant finishes as arguably the most well-rounded tight end at the FBS level, as he also led in receiving grade and overall grade. FAU running backs averaged more than 2.0 yards before contact when rushing around the tight end spot this season.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/college-football-best-at-everything-on-offense

Of course, I’ve also read he’s not a very good run blocker, lol.

 

I’d like to see the Boilermaker, Hopkins, make it to our 3rd rounder...

I love both Bryant’s; the small school guy getting the most love is Tautman from Dayton, he probably profiles as a better blocker, but Bryant is a gifted athlete who may be able to block in the nfl if he puts more weight on, I think his actual playing weight was below 230 while Tautman was closer to 255.

We desperately need a TE, though the youngster we picked up mid season has his fair share of fans. 

[volsmet]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Thinking about Okudah vs Simmons and I think I'm settling on Okudah over Simmons.  He's got that dog in him that Simmons doesn't have.  There was a moment in the NC game where Edwards-Helaire or another ball carrier was fighting for extra yards after a DB tackled him out beyond the numbers.  Simmons is closing on them and he thinks Edwards-Helaire is down so he jumps over top of him to avoid contact.  But he wasn't down and he got a couple of extra yards.  Time was, if a linebacker or safety as big as Simmons saw a ball carrier as a sitting duck trying to stay up like that, he would bury him in the ground.

 

 

Was that run late in the 4th? I saw one like that & my first thought was Clemson isn’t using timeouts, Simmons’ mind is in the nfl. I was actually surprised by Clemson not using their timeouts in the 4th - they all stopped tackling. 🤔 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, volsmet said:

Was that run late in the 4th? I saw one like that & my first thought was Clemson isn’t using timeouts, Simmons’ mind is in the nfl. I was actually surprised by Clemson not using their timeouts in the 4th - they all stopped tackling. 🤔 

 

I think the one I'm referencing was in the third. 

[skinny21]

10 minutes ago, volsmet said:

I love both Bryant’s; the small school guy getting the most love is Tautman from Dayton, he probably profiles as a better blocker, but Bryant is a gifted athlete who may be able to block in the nfl if he puts more weight on, I think his actual playing weight was below 230 while Tautman was closer to 255.

We desperately need a TE, though the youngster we picked up mid season has his fair share of fans. 

I like Hentges - almost every time I zeroed in on him in the run game in rewatches, he was doing an admirable job.  He looked good in the pass game vs Dallas - fairly smooth, picking up some YAC, but Dallas struggled against TEs, so...

Harrison is listed at 245, but you could be right.  He looked a bit lean, but then in close-ups, he looked to have pretty good thickness.  Or maybe I’m thinking of Hopkins, lol.  I can’t tell you how bummed I am to not have draftbreakdown anymore - life was so much easier as an armchair scout...

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, OVCChairman said:

 

I absolutely want guys who have some 'dog' in em.. and you reference leaders.  We have a 'dog' on defense that is already the leader.  Allen.  That guy refuses to lose, and he literally got the Bruce Smith style facemask because it's a tribute to those nasty d-lineman in history.  Landon Collins has that.  

 

When i see Simmons... i see a guy who can change the ability for the QB to do his job.  Young can possibly do that as well.  I LOVE Okudah, and if we draft him, i'm not going to be complaining, but if i'm looking at Simmons vs Okudah, i'm taking Simmons.  QBs will have to ALWAYS account where Simmons is.  Matchup advantages are the name of the game, and Simmons can negate A LOT of those.  He's big enough to cover a TE in man to man, and he's fast enough to stick with a WR. 

 

 

 

To be an LB and lead the team in TFL AND Pass Def... are you serious?   Converting to a 4-3, what is the BEST front 7 we could be looking at, and this is an honest question.

 

ILB: Holcomb

OLB:  Simmons / Hamilton or Foster

DE: Sweat / Allen rotating Kerrigan

DT: Payne / Ioannidis rotating Settle

 

or 

 

ILB: Holcomb

OLB: Foster / Hamilton

DE: Sweat / Allen rotating Kerrigan

DT: Payne / Ioannidis rotating Settle

 

 

Either way it can be a very powerful unit... 

The fact that Simmons is able to do all of that, with a defense as complicated as Clemsons, with the limited amount of practice time you get in college, is unbelievable.

 

11 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I think the one I'm referencing was in the third. 

That’s not so good 🤔

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, volsmet said:

That’s not so good 🤔

 

It looked like he pulled up because the Bowling Ball looked like he was down, but then wasn't. And Simmons jumped over him at first thinking he was down...

 

Hopefully he learned a little something there

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

Was that run late in the 4th? I saw one like that & my first thought was Clemson isn’t using timeouts, Simmons’ mind is in the nfl. I was actually surprised by Clemson not using their timeouts in the 4th - they all stopped tackling. 🤔 

 

I'm pretty sure it was late.  The game got pretty collegial after the Tee Higgins TD was negated and Clemson kind of conceded.  I was surprised to see them do that.  They were stumped, exhausted, and I think they lost their spirit when Skalski got booted.

 

Simmons got fooled on that particular play, Edwards-Helaire looked like he was going down, but you can't be sure with him.  Simmons was probably tired and banged up by this point, but it was one of those little moments that are revelatory of Simmons's football personality IMO.  His instinct isn't to kill.  He's a clean player and a well-adjusted human being.

 

It's not a big deal.  Having a teammate like Simmons or Kinlaw or Tremaine Edmunds who is out there like the Greek God of Football is intimidating in a different way.  It's just that, say I'm just a role player in a defense and I have a teammate that is hurting people and putting the fear in them, then I'm going to let my dick swing and play fearless too.

 

I almost didn't really want to bring this up because my critique comes off like me calling him soft, and he definitely is not soft at all.  He is getting involved in almost every play--his activity level and ability to find the football are awesome.  It just means I need to find an emotional lift from one of his teammates instead.  Like a Reuben Foster or Ryan Anderson perhaps.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, volsmet said:

The fact that Simmons is able to do all of that, with a defense as complicated as Clemsons, with the limited amount of practice time you get in college, is unbelievable. 

 

He's super smart.  I'm always impressed by the guys who can make position switches when their coaches ask them to and become big contributors for their programs.  I think he's already graduated too.  Great football instincts, you can really see him processing at a higher level than the rest of the Clemson guys.  He sees the whole field and anticipates well, and it also helps when your reaction and recovery speed is so good.

 

I laughed at his body language when he got one of his pass deflections in the first quarter.  It was an empty set and he was in single coverage on Edwards-Helaire who was split wide.  Simmons kind of trotted over to him in this nonchalant way late in the play clock and Burrow snapped it and tried to throw it to Edwards-Helaire on like a one step drop I think.  I guess Burrow thought Edwards-Helaire was uncovered or something.  Simmons just swatted the ball down like Mutumbo or something.  Like it was nothing.  Then he held his arms out in a gesture like, "You seriously tried that?"  He was aghast that they tried to throw that quick screen against a match up whose arms are roughly the same length as the player he's guarding.

[Going Commando]

Some good debate going on with Simmons vs Okudah, and I wanted to throw a little bit of a curveball into it by positing that I think Okudah could play safety full time if needed.  I do think he is versatile.

 

His role at Ohio State was pretty rigid because that's kind of how the personnel stacked up.  Arnette on the other side, Wade moving around, and Fuller in the back.  It suited those other guys really well to play those roles and have Okudah play isolated press man and press bail coverage virtually every snap.  But he's got a lot more to him.  He can play zones and cover tight ends and run alleys and set the edge.  He press man covered Tee Higgins effectively.  Higgins has a tight end sized frame and any questions about his power can be answered by watching him destroy Kristian Fulton on that reverse he ran for a TD.  Okudah is like a streamlined 6'1 200 with good play strength and phenomenal closing speed.  Hybrid safety-corner sized.  Similar to Minkah Fitzpatrick.  I think Okudah could fill in the cracks for any secondary and be one of those guys who won't tip your coverage if he lines up inside.  I think it'd be nice to see him get to play zone more at the next level, so he can get more chances to make plays on the ball.

[skinzplay]

Tua's agent noted today that he'll have an extensive session in April before the draft to throw for teams. Let's say he balls out in those passing drills. Obviously he's not being chased or sacked while doing it, but what effect do you think it'll have on his draft position or any potential trade-up scenarios for certain other teams if he impresses during that exhibition just as he did while on the field on Saturdays?

[Fresh8686]

 

[volsmet]

Stephen Sullivan is interesting 7th round flier, @Fresh8686 - that mock was all high upside prospects, I like it.