Trump Border Wall Post-Shutdown Discussion (Wall-Fight)

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

And a filibuster is when someone stands on the senate floor and rambles about something for hours. Who is currently filibustering?

My understanding is that while that is what a filibuster technically is, no one does that anymore.  One just says they will do it and that is accepted as actually doing it.  I think it because they are too lazy to actually stand on the floor and ramble forever.

[Fergasun]

@Larry
It is not being filibustered. The funding through Feb 8 with $1.3B for border securty passed the Senate. Trump initially signalled he would sign it. Freedom caucus people in the House started telling him he needed the push for the wall and not to sign. The House passed a bill with $5B border security funding.

The House never voted on the 100-0 Senate bill with $1.3B. It would likely pass with Dem support.

@TheGreatBuzz
It is up to the majority in the legialative houses to hold this concensus, and it mostly has to occur in the Senate where all legislation needs 60 votes. Hence, the Senate is where most of the power holds as they must build concensus. In fact judges used to also, but Reid lifted that rule so Obama could "pack the court" and McConnell is following suit. So now you want veto-proof legislating with the Dems controlling the House? To be fair 90% of legislation does have broad concensus, we only see the controversial stuff.

The Dems are waiting until Jan 3... wait and see what pressure gets built when they pass the Senate bill -- at least that is my hope.

[Bozo the kKklown]

9 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

My understanding is that while that is what a filibuster technically is, no one does that anymore.  One just says they will do it and that is accepted as actually doing it.  I think it because they are too lazy to actually stand on the floor and ramble forever.

Rand Paul had a 13 hour filibuster a couple of years ago.

 

People still do it, but it is supposed to be an extreme tactic.

 

 

But no one is filibustering right now, which is my is only point.

[@DCGoldPants]

9 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

@Larry
It is not being filibustered. The funding through Feb 8 with $1.3B for border securty passed the Senate. Trump initially signalled he would sign it. Freedom caucus people in the House started telling him he needed the push for the wall and not to sign. The House passed a bill with $5B border security funding.

 

2

 

I recall the biggest pushback he got was from the Hannity/Coulter crowd on TV, and he followed their lead before what the House and Senate had agreed on got to his desk. That's why both McConnell AND the Dems are now saying he has to publicly agree to something before they send it over. 

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Rand Paul had a 13 hour filibuster a couple of years ago.

 

People still do it, but it is supposed to be an extreme tactic.

 

 

But no one is filibustering right now, which is my is only point.

 

Ted Cruz had one where he read Green Eggs and Ham in a tone deaf act of trying to block the ACA.

 

He (they) only cost us over $20B in output. But he refuses to take credit anymore. 

[Larry]

12 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

You need 60 votes to overturn a filibuster.

 

True. 

 

12 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

And a filibuster is when someone stands on the senate floor and rambles about something for hours. 

 

False. That is one way to filibuster. A way which the Senate has pretty much done away with, a decade or two ago. 

 

12 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

There is no need to filibuster anything right now because you need 60 votes to pass a budget resolution. 

 

If it's being filibustered. If it's not, then it takes 51. (Or 50 and Pence). 

[LD0506]

[Larry]

20 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

My understanding is that while that is what a filibuster technically is, no one does that anymore.  One just says they will do it and that is accepted as actually doing it.  I think it because they are too lazy to actually stand on the floor and ramble forever.

 

I'm not certain that's precisely correct, but yeah, it matches what I've read. 

 

The problem with the Mr Smith filibuster is that it not only blocks the bill being filibustered, it blocks everything else, too. Senate can't even hear a motion to adjourn. 

 

Instead, a member simply says he's filibustering, and it is. He doesn't even have to reveal who's doing the filibuster. 

 

There's some other funny rules. They don't have to have a cloture vote to end the filibuster. Leader can bring the bill to the floor for a vote. If it gets 60 votes, then the filibuster is broken, and the bill passes, all in one vote. But, if the bill gets 59 votes, then the bill is rejected, and can't be revived. (It doesn't just stay filibustered). 

 

At least, those were the rules I read, back when the Republicans were filibustering Obamacare. (Which, I will point out, did not involve a single person talking for two days straight). 

[No Excuses]

The Democrats are holding the GOP accountable for their campaign promise of making Mexico pay for the dumb wall. Majority of the country supports them in this effort according to all recent polling. 

 

If that is a problem, the GOP should nuke the legislative filibuster.

[Bozo the kKklown]

32 minutes ago, Larry said:

False. That is one way to filibuster. A way which the Senate has pretty much done away with, a decade or two ago

You can watch all 11 hours if you want

 

34 minutes ago, Larry said:

If it's being filibustered. If it's not, then it takes 51. (Or 50 and Pence). 

Huh?

 

You need 60 votes in the senate to pass a bill. The reason why it drops to 51 is because the bill gets reconciled in the House and Senate when both chambers vote for different bills.

 

That will not happen now because the bill won’t pass the Senate unless McConnell goes nuclear (which he has said he will not).

[Bang]

I am usually one very forgiving of the "campaign promise".. i tend to believe that a lot of times a candidate may actually believe they CAn do something, only to find out upon election that they can't because their previous clearance level didn't allow them key information.

(Obama: I'm going to close Gitmo!".. 
His new presidential advisors: "uh, well sir, now that you're actually allowed to know certain information, here is why those people there are REALLY REALLY bad and we can't just close it."
Obama: "Nevermind!"..

 

or other circumstances that change things.

Bush I: No new taxes!

Circumstances:  Hey! War!
Bush I .. well damn, gotta pay for THAT... just a FEW new taxes!)

But i think there's a big difference between making a promise unaware of other circumstances of what may surround it due to your security clearance, and making a bald faced lie that was continually repudiated by no less than the Mexican president LAUGHING at trump on social media.
It's more than a lie, it's a "**** you" by his dumbass followers who will ONLY follow through with it for the **** You factor they so dearly love. They know they've been lied to, used, and they simply love telling other Americans to go **** themselves more than anything, even though THEY are the ones who take the brunt of it. The complete lack of self awaresness is astonishing..

 

~Bang

Edited December 28, 2018 by Bang

[mistertim]

16 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Huh?

 

You need 60 votes in the senate to pass a bill. The reason why it drops to 51 is because the bill gets reconciled in the House and Senate when both chambers vote for different bills.

 

That will not happen now because the bill won’t pass the Senate unless McConnell goes nuclear (which he has said he will not).

 

You need 60 votes for cloture, not to pass a bill. Cloture is the only way to break a legislative filibuster. They may not physically filibuster anymore (outside of a few rare instances which are more for optics) but nowadays there's basically an implicit threat of filibuster which requires cloture and 60 votes to advance the bill for a floor vote. 

 

So no the're not filibustering like in the days of old, but it is still essentially happening.

[Larry]

18 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

You can watch all 11 hours if you want

 

And it will prove that the old style filibuster has in fact been used, a couple of times, in the last decade or two. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

You need 60 votes in the senate to pass a bill. The reason why it drops to 51 is because the bill gets reconciled in the House and Senate when both chambers vote for different bills.

 

That will not happen now because the bill won’t pass the Senate unless McConnell goes nuclear (which he has said he will not).

 

 

Wikipedia: Filibuster in the United States Senate

 

It's a long article. And frankly, pretty vague. But it appears that it does know more about the subject than you do.  

 

 

 

Quote

 

The two-track system, 60-vote rule and rise of the routine filibuster (1970 onward)

After a series of filibusters in the 1960s over civil rights legislation, the Senate put a "two-track system" into place in 1970 under the leadership of Majority Leader Mike Mansfield and Majority Whip Robert Byrd. Before this system was introduced, a filibuster would stop the Senate from moving on to any other legislative activity. Tracking allows the majority leader—with unanimous consent or the agreement of the minority leader—to have more than one bill pending on the floor as unfinished business. Under the two-track system, the Senate can have two or more pieces of legislation pending on the floor simultaneously by designating specific periods during the day when each one will be considered.^[26][27]

 

The notable side effect of this change was that by no longer bringing Senate business to a complete halt, filibusters on particular legislation became politically easier for the minority to sustain.^{[29][30][31][32]} As a result, the number of filibusters began increasing rapidly, eventually leading to the modern era in which an effective supermajority requirement exists to pass legislation, with no practical requirement that the minority party actually hold the floor or extend debate.

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[mistertim]

17 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

These people are almost mythically stupid. As usual, they're completely misreading the situation and coming up with the most inane conclusion possible. The public already blames Trump, if the most recent polls are to be believed. Also, why would the shutdown stop Pelosi and the Dems from pursuing the other items on their agenda? The Trumpbarts may not be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, but others can and the Dems have already made their position on the "wall" pretty clear. There's nothing stopping them from going forward with other legislative items and/or investigations.

 

They mostly just need to ignore Trump (which is the one thing he can't stand) and let him keep making an ass out of himself with his TwitterTantrums while they move ahead with other ****.

[Larry]

 

 

32 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

 

Guess we don't need a wall. Trump can do the same thing just by issuing an order. 

[RedskinsFan44]

29 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

 

 

Guess we don't need a wall. Trump can do the same thing just by issuing an order. 

He can shut down legal activity with an order, which would be disastrous. Amazingly things have degenerated to a point that him threatening to blow **** up gets met with a shrug because he has zero credibility.

[Larry]

2 minutes ago, RedskinsFan44 said:

He can shut down legal activity with an order, which would be disastrous. Amazingly things have degenerated to a point that him threatening to blow **** up gets met with a shrug because he has zero credibility.

 

Just my opinion, but when he threatens to blow **** up, I believe him completely. 

 

[Cooked Crack]

 

[LD0506]

15 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

These people are almost mythically stupid. As usual, they're completely misreading the situation and coming up with the most inane conclusion possible. The public already blames Trump, if the most recent polls are to be believed. Also, why would the shutdown stop Pelosi and the Dems from pursuing the other items on their agenda? The Trumpbarts may not be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, but others can and the Dems have already made their position on the "wall" pretty clear. There's nothing stopping them from going forward with other legislative items and/or investigations.

 

They mostly just need to ignore Trump (which is the one thing he can't stand) and let him keep making an ass out of himself with his TwitterTantrums while they move ahead with other ****.

 

(<sigh> again with the morning coffee pedantics....)

 

See, I don't think any of this is about smart/stupid, that's the wrong metric to measure any of this. Yes, large numbers ARE stupid, mindbogglingly stupid, but that doesn't seem to be the common factor in any of their motivations. A lot of supposedly smart, savvy, successful people are completely lost in the same fog, and you'd think that even a handful of smart ones would be leading packs of the dummies towards the light, but noooo, that ain't happening. This is a different level response, some atavistic lizard brain reflex triggered by appeals to fears as old as mankind itself. I teach/tell my son, you simply cannot think and be upset simultaneously, they are mutually exclusive. The learned ability to stop and take a breath, physically, mentally, emotionally, to break yourself out of the loop is elemental in a world where every single possible nerve ending is getting stimulated by someone looking to monetize your response. We are all ultimately responsible for the manner in which we react, but so many never learned this apparently. Every single thing that happens is someone elses fault or doing, they are utterly blameless, adrift on a wave of others malice or God's will. 

 

This is where we started eons ago, hiding in caves, imagining the great flaming bird in the sky would snatch us up if we dared step out. It's the original OS, homo sapiens 1.0, and we suffer from the bits and pieces of old code still washing around in our psyches. Everything else, agriculture and architecture and medicine and art and all the everything that helped us claw our way out into the sun is built upon that pre-stone age programming that can still be re-enabled by any conman with the right application of Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right, B, A, SELECT, Start. 

 

Take a breath.............disable that ****, but understand you may have to keep disabling it over and over again for the rest of your life. 

[LD0506]

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, ok.

[Larry]

 

 

Quote

 

Yeah, ok.

 

The Speaker of the House is Paul Ryan. 

 

The House passed a resolution to fund the government over a week ago. 

 

President Trump originally praised the measure. But then announced that he would veto the measure because Laura Ingrahm told him to. 

 

The measure has not been brought to a vote in the Senate, because Trump has threatened a veto, and Mitch McConnell has given Donald Trump the authority to prevent measures from being voted on. 

 

None of the people mentioned above are Democrats. 

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2018 by visionary

[Fergasun]

So the White House is going full Trump.

 

See Sen. Murphy's Tweet above... have fun with the spin come January 3rd ish....

 

 

[Hersh]

The White House is super desperate. It’s kinda hilarious. The Dems better not **** this up. Should pass a good border security bill with no wall money, full DACA fixes along with a few other items. Then move on to other items.