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Budget Fight (Trump Mantle / Border Security Shutdown))

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5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

playing with fire here.

 

If Democrats allow Republicans to win these dumb culture war fights by shutting the government down, you're going to get more shut downs, not less.

 

How about we make it illegal to pass anything other than clean continuing resolutions?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, visionary said:
 

 

 

Recently surfaced image from the border:

 

max3.jpg

 

EDIT: Goddammit, @PleaseBlitz already beat me to it.   :ols:

Edited by mistertim
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Just now, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

If Democrats allow Republicans to win these dumb culture war fights by shutting the government down, you're going to get more shut downs, not less.

 

How about we make it illegal to pass anything other than clean continuing resolutions?

 

I already said they should pass a bill to keep government spending at current levels if they couldn't agree to a change and no one responded.

 

I asked straight up if a budget bill if vetoed could be overriden by 2/3rds vote in both chambers of congress and no one answered me.

 

I'm really not interested what is essentially going nowhere from negotiation standpoint.  We need to think outside the box since our leaders refuse to.

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1 hour ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Im not exactly sure what you mean by “house dems... do” but if you mean impeachment then they do have the right, and they won the election and they have the votes. It is up to them if it’s worth the political fight.

 

You are right. moral and responsible are different from allowed, but to suggest Donald trump is immoral for using his only leverage is not correct (whether or not the wall is moral or responsible is a separate issue).

 

You are right. House dems passed a spending bill that did not provide enough money for border security (according to the president) knowing full well it was never getting passed. A political act. The dems believe the wall is worth a shut down or they would have passed a cr with the money in it.

1. For the next two years, not a single piece of legislation gets enacted if house Dems oppose it.  That's what I meant.

 

2. So, if Dems wanted to use their only leverage and say we won't pass anything in the house, spending bills, debt ceiling, nothing, unless GOP gives us Medicare for all and tax hike on the rich, that's not irresponsible and immoral?

 

3. Dems believe standing up to Trump's ultimatum is worth the shutdown.  As do many Americans.  Doesn't mean that ultimatum didn't cause the shutdown.

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Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

I already said they should pass a bill to keep government spending at current levels if they couldn't agree to a change and no one responded.

 

I asked straight up if a budget bill if vetoed could be overriden by 2/3rds vote in both chambers of congress and no one answered me.

 

I'm really not interested what is essentially going nowhere from negotiation standpoint.  We need to think outside the box since our leaders refuse to.

I agree that default should be spending at current level, not shutdown.

 

Veto can be overriden as well as McConnell's refusal to bring the house version to vote.  They just need enough defectors from GOP ranks.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

I wonder why Obama never did this with gun control.... he should have.

Because I wouldn't of voted for him again.  Its just be this situation with the parties flipped in regards to who's in power where, this is soooooooo not worth it for either side to go to point SNAP stops.

2 minutes ago, bearrock said:

I agree that default should be spending at current level, not shutdown.

 

Veto can be overriden as well as McConnell's refusal to bring the house version to vote.  They just need enough defectors from GOP ranks.

 

But do they really need him for a vote?  Senate Majority Leader is not a role defined in Constitution when it was written because the country hadn't fractured into political parties yet.  Was it added later, does he really have that type of power on the constitutional level to not allow a vote at all in the senate?

Edited by Renegade7
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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Because I wouldn't of voted for him again.  Its just be this situation with the parties flipped in regards to who's in power where, this is soooooooo not worth it for either side to go to point SNAP stops.

 

I agree it’s not worth going that far, but so assuming there is no reason for trump to fold (I doubt there is) do you want the dems to fold, or do you want to wait till there is enough pain that senate republicans agree to override a veto (which could happen if there is enough pain)

Edited by CousinsCowgirl84

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

 

I agree, but so assuming there is no reason for trump to fold (I doubt there is) do you want the dems to fold, or do you want to wait till there is enough pain that senate republicans agree to override a veto (which could happen if there is enough pain)

 

I want dems to try work with senate republicans to circumvent the president and McConnell because senate republicans are already hinting at it.  Many know their elections are on the line even if this doesn't hit 30 days. 

 

If Dems cave on the wall, only do it with promise to pass a bill to prevent future shutdowns with enough votes in senate to override Trumps veto. This one is absolutely a risk, but so would having another 30+ day shut down over Trumps next temper tantrum.  GOP can barely defend this one, there's no one they can defend multiple ones at the polls.

Edited by Renegade7

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21 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

 

Being in DC area, this is going to taking a different type of toll because of how dependent the area is on federal government. DC government even needs the feds, they are going nuts about statehood as we speak over this. It's the feds that helped insulate the area from full onslaught of 08 recession, playing with fire here.

 

It's making my commute a ****ing breeze.  :)

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If this gets to something like tax day, mid-April, Dems have to cave and go toward with impeachment.  Hopefully by then Muller report will be out.  God, this would be perfect time for that, would shutdown this whole shut down.

Just now, PleaseBlitz said:

 

It's making my commute a ****ing breeze.  :)

Driving? You poor soul, metro is where its at, I'm a block from Huntington, my job is across the street from Union Station : )

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

But do they really need him for a vote?  Senate Majority Leader is not a role defined in Constitution when it was written because the country hadn't fractured into political parties yet.  Was it added later, does he really have that type of power on the constitutional level to not allow a vote at all in the senate?

 

This is my understanding so it may be totally off.  But my understanding is that Senate Maj Leader's power is tied to standing Senate rule that give Majority Leader the power to set Calendar of Bills and Resolutions (in essence the daily agenda).  There would be three ways to thwart McConnell, two drastic and one not as much.  One, GOP could simply remove McConnell as Maj Leader.  Obviously not happening.  Senate rules can also be amended to take away agenda setting powers from Maj Leader.  Probably not happening either.  Least drastic would be motion to override agenda (would require 12 for introduction, 60 to override filibuster, 51 to pass).  Last one is still a pulbic rebuke of McConnell, but at least limited to this one circumstance.  

 

If Trump really vetoes, we're gonna need a lot of detections.

 

On the dems caving issue, I think Dems should offer 50 billion for border and port of entry security that may be used as Secretary of DHS deems fit on any security measures other than a physical barrier and dare Trump to oppose.

Edited by bearrock
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28 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

I wonder why Obama never did this with gun control.... he should have.

 

Democrats wouldn't have had the spine to support him in it. 

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51 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Because I wouldn't of voted for him again.  Its just be this situation with the parties flipped in regards to who's in power where, this is soooooooo not worth it for either side to go to point SNAP stops.

 

 

 

since you seem interested, SNAP is funded thru February

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3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Polling is starting to suggest that voters are increasingly blaming Trump for the shutdown.

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-has-lost-ground-in-the-shutdown-blame-game/

 

 

 

Not by much and certainly within the errors of the polls and his larger disapproval ratings don't seem to slipping so even if people seem to blame him it isn't showing up there (it is possible that some blame him, but don't think it is bad).

 

Democrats need to find another answer.  Even if people don't blame them if it continues on, eventually people are going to be angry at them.  In the context of the federal government $5 billion isn't really that much and not really going to rile people up and nobody is out there saying how bad the will be for them individually.  Among many more moderate people, a mind set of just give him wall is going to set in.  They also have the issue that they don't want to be for open borders.

 

I've said, I'd pass it with a path to citizenship for dreamers, a tax increase on the extremely wealthy to pay for the wall with a split of the tax increase going to 1/3 to the wall, 1/3 to implementing alternative energy, 1/3 to funding higher education until you've had $5 billion for the wall, then the money is split 1/2 and 1/2 with alternative energy and funding higher education.

 

Though, I also really like the idea of passing a bill with money towards to border enforcement, but specifically states that funds can't be used towards the wall.  I'm pretty sure essentially none of the old 9/11 report suggestions for the ports were implemented.  Pass a law that coupled funding the government with money to fund some of those suggestions with a tax increase on the extremely wealthy to pay for it and make Trump veto it.

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2 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

 

I've said, I'd pass it with a path to citizenship for dreamers, a tax increase on the extremely wealthy to pay for the wall with a split of the tax increase going to 1/3 to the wall, 1/3 to implementing alternative energy, 1/3 to funding higher education until you've had $5 billion for the wall, then the money is split 1/2 and 1/2 with alternative energy and funding higher education.

That's how normal government functions. You give me something. I give you something. I haven't heard McConnell or Trump offer the Dems anything. They just keep saying if you give me what I want, the way I want it, how I want it, then I will end the problem I caused.

 

The problem with this is, if the Dems give in, Trump will continue to hold his breath and do the same type of blackmail over and over again.

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3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Not by much and certainly within the errors of the polls and his larger disapproval ratings don't seem to slipping so even if people seem to blame him it isn't showing up there (it is possible that some blame him, but don't think it is bad).

 

Er, that's not what the poll says.  3 polls average out at 50% blame Trump and 32% blame Dems.  That is good polling for Dems and not anywhere close to margins of error.  What it says is that Trumps roughly 35% base blames Dems, the rest blame Trump or Congressional Republicans.  

 

3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Democrats need to find another answer.  Even if people don't blame them if it continues on, eventually people are going to be angry at them.  In the context of the federal government $5 billion isn't really that much and not really going to rile people up and nobody is out there saying how bad the will be for them individually.  Among many more moderate people, a mind set of just give him wall is going to set in.  They also have the issue that they don't want to be for open borders.

 

Democrat voters will be angrier with them if they cave. 

 

3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I've said, I'd pass it with a path to citizenship for dreamers, a tax increase on the extremely wealthy to pay for the wall with a split of the tax increase going to 1/3 to the wall, 1/3 to implementing alternative energy, 1/3 to funding higher education until you've had $5 billion for the wall, then the money is split 1/2 and 1/2 with alternative energy and funding higher education.

 

Path to citizenship for Dreamers has been offered and Trump rejected it.  

 

:ols: at him going for a tax on the extremely wealthy.  Seriously.  

 

3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Though, I also really like the idea of passing a bill with money towards to border enforcement, but specifically states that funds can't be used towards the wall.  I'm pretty sure essentially none of the old 9/11 report suggestions for the ports were implemented.  Pass a law that coupled funding the government with money to fund some of those suggestions with a tax increase on the extremely wealthy to pay for it and make Trump veto it.

 

I get the sense that you haven't been paying attention.  Trump has said he will not sign a bill without wall money.  McConnell will not have a vote on something that Trump hasn't agreed to in advance, so they can't pass anything and have him veto it.  

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3 minutes ago, Burgold said:

That's how normal government functions. You give me something. I give you something. I haven't heard McConnell or Trump offer the Dems anything. They just keep saying if you give me what I want, the way I want it, how I want it, then I will end the problem I caused.

 

The problem with this is, if the Dems give in, Trump will continue to hold his breath and do the same type of blackmail over and over again.

 

Okay, but the Dems aren't passing anything either.  The Dems need to keep passing options (other than fund the government) and make Trump and McConnell keep saying no.

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1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

Okay, but the Dems aren't passing anything either.  The Dems need to keep passing options (other than fund the government) and make Trump and McConnell keep saying no.

They are bringing things up for vote. McConnell isn't even allowing that now. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Okay, but the Dems aren't passing anything either.  The Dems need to keep passing options (other than fund the government) and make Trump and McConnell keep saying no.

 

This happened about half an hour ago.

 

Quote

House Democrats passed a bill that would reopen the Treasury Department and ensure that the Internal Revenue Service would remain funded as tax season kicks off and millions of taxpayers begin to file their returns.

 

Eight House Republicans voted in favor of the bill, defying the president’s pleas for unity. But the measure has no path to passage, as Trump has said he opposes any legislation that does not include funding for the border wall.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/shutdown-impasse-trump-heads-to-the-hill-after-oval-office-address/2019/01/09/27268008-13fe-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8_story.html?utm_term=.2a59375b662c

Edited by PleaseBlitz
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